R+L=J v.121

[Kingmonkey]

Speaking of Elric, George borrowed a lot from the Eternal Champion idea of Moorcock. In TWOIAF, we see a lot of different names for AA one of which is Eldric the Shadowchaser. Hyrkoon is an obvious reference to Yyrkoon. The cursed sword Stormbringer becomes the Lightbringer.

There's an albino sorcerer beyond the wall who might argue who's the Elric analogue here, but Eldric and Hyrkoon in the same context is obviously no coincidence. Valyrians certainly owe some inspiration to Melniboneans. I'm not sure there's a lot beyond the window dressing really, though I do wonder if Moorcock's adoption of law vs. chaos rather than good vs. evil isn't what we're seeing with fire & ice.

I lately think that there is some connection between

· the blocking of the sun during the LN

· the legend about dragons drinking the sun to breathe flame

· Asshai and HotU having stones that drink the sunlight

· dragons being unnatural creations

· dragons being fire made flesh (like the shadow assassin being life-fire made shadow)

I think the great shadow/blood magic to create dragons in Asshai resulted in the blocking of the sun and it created the necessary conditions for the ice dragons/Others thrive. That was the reason of the messed up seasons starting with the LN. In order to restore the balance, I think the dragons need to die.

And then there's the idea that dragons hatched from the moon. There seems to be a thread of astronomical significance running through these legends. Comets, swords forged from the hearts of falling stars, missing moons. Then there are all these odd rocks, drinking sunlight or strangely melted.

Maybe Azor Ahai is a distorted memory of an ancient sun-god, and his wife Nissa Nissa was the second moon, which was shattered when a comet (red sword) collided with it on its third passage (the second passage passing through the constellation of the shadow cat, perhaps?).

[sj4iy]

Well, one of the possible scenarios unfolding is that at that point in the story Dany and Jon are close and if she is still alive she lets/wants him to skinchange into Drogon as the last measure to stop the Great Other (an enormous Ice Dragon). But more likely she died some time before during childbirth! :P The actual ending of the series is that she died during childbirth, Jon dies a true death while killing TGO with Drogon. Tyrion is left as the Protector of the realm to raise Jon's and Dany's son, grooming him for kingship.

Anyways, Azor Ahai as some great Savior crap and all the three heads of the dragon being three dragonrides seems like bullcrap to me. Time will tell. When we finally see A dream of springs in our bookstores.

I don't think AAR/TPTWP/TSTMTW will be 'saviors' at all. I think they will be the people who lead the fight against the Others, but I don't think that makes them messiahs at all. I think Jon will be one of those people, and Dany, but I think there will be others.

But we'll see.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

But who will fight against the dragons?

[markg171]

1. I never said that Ned never called Jon his son. I said that in his own private, internal, more truthful thougts...he never calls Jon his son. Outloud..of course he does! What else is he going to say in that quote you gave? "Let's go see what my sons and nephew, son of my dead sister and a Targ prince, have rooted out for us!" But not to CAT---that's the important part.

2. Uh...no? I has no bearing on the conversation. Who cares what Robert felt? What does that have to do with anything right now?

Why doesn't Westeros know? Because Ned Stark is so honorable that if he says Jon is his, the lords aren't going question it. But we, the readers have a nice look into Ned's mind as GRRM laid all the clues for RLJ.

Welcome to RLJ!

Yeah, I'm curious as to how much R told L about all that.

1. Except the quote about my blood, comes from Catelyn's POV. You have no idea what Ned is thinking there.

2. When you try and say that Lyanna must be Jon Snow's mother because Ned loved her with all his heart, yes it's damn well important to point out that Ned himself acknowledges that there was another who loved her even more. The whole assumption that he would lie for her for 14 years, relies on the fact that he loved her so much that he would do so. But when he acknowledges that Robert loved her more, that throws that assumption into doubt. Because if Robert loved her more, then that throws into doubt just how far Ned would go for her, if she wasn't the most important woman in his life.

[Alia of the knife]

There's an albino sorcerer beyond the wall who might argue who's the Elric analogue here, but Eldric and Hyrkoon in the same context is obviously no coincidence. Valyrians certainly owe some inspiration to Melniboneans. I'm not sure there's a lot beyond the window dressing really, though I do wonder if Moorcock's adoption of law vs. chaos rather than good vs. evil isn't what we're seeing with fire & ice.

And then there's the idea that dragons hatched from the moon. There seems to be a thread of astronomical significance running through these legends. Comets, swords forged from the hearts of falling stars, missing moons. Then there are all these odd rocks, drinking sunlight or strangely melted.

Maybe Azor Ahai is a distorted memory of an ancient sun-god, and his wife Nissa Nissa was the second moon, which was shattered when a comet (red sword) collided with it on its third passage (the second passage passing through the constellation of the shadow cat, perhaps?).

I believe that it is more about the themes of chaos vs. order and balance, rather than necessarily good or evil as I don't believe the Others, nor the dragons are either, but symptoms of world out of balance.

Jon can very well be the tool to restore balance, but it doesn't mean that he will be always be a "good guy," or "good."

In terms of the cultural influences, Martin of course lives in New Mexico, so I would definitely see him being exposed to those aspects of surrounding cultures and myths of the people who came there like the story of the Incas who are said to be descended from the Sun and Moon, brother/sister, husband and wife.

The Martell sigil is very similar to the Aztec sun god.

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs6/PRE/i/2005/109/0/b/aztec_sun_by_livercake.jpg

[markg171]

There is absolutely no chance of Aegon being at the tower. Jaime was guarding Aegon at the Red Keep, and Jaime knows that Aegon is dead, dead, dead.

Jaime was guarding Aerys. He was SUPPOSED to be guarding Aerys, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys, but he's one man and Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys were in a different part of the keep than he was as Aerys ordered Jaime to guard him. So no, Jaime was not guarding Aegon.

We see in the novels that there is SUPPOSED to be a KG guarding the drawbridge to the chambers of the royal family, but when Rhaegar has managed to split 6/7 of the KG away from KL, there is going to be an opening, especially when the 1 KG left at the Red Keep, is ordered by the king to guard himself and not the royal family.

In fact, it's the perfect time to steal Aegon. Not saying I personally agree with the theory, but Aegon was certainly left with less competent guards than he normally would have, and the only KG available was busy with the king.

[Kingmonkey]

I believe that it is more about the themes of chaos vs. order and balance, rather than necessarily good or evil as I don't believe the Others, nor the dragons are either, but symptoms of world out of balance.

Jon can very well be the tool to restore balance, but it doesn't mean that he will be always be a "good guy," or "good."

Indeed, that's what I was thinking of. One of Moorcock's themes is that different aspects of the Eternal Champion might serve law, or might serve chaos, or might change sides, or might live at a time when law and chaos as forces have been subsumed entirely into the actions of man, but ultimately the Eternal Champion is the tool of the cosmic balance.

[The Twinslayer]

Funny detail being that everything important was mentioned at least somehow in A Game of Thrones (1996). Jump ahead 4 more books and 15 years to A Dance with Dragons (2011) to learn of this supposedly important tidbit...

I am not saying Varys would not have been able to do it, as he has proven it already in A Storm of Swords. I say I find this is something that comes not only unexpected but also un-alluded and un-foreshadowed and it smells fishy.

Aegon's survival is one of the most heavily foreshadowed events in the series. In AGOT Ned tells us his skull was a 'red ruin'. - a clear hint that no one could identify the body. He is also conspicuously absent from the list of dead Targaryens discussed by Ned and the 3KG at the tower of joy. By the end of AGOT, we are supposed to wonder where Aegon really is.

In ACOK, Dany's HOTU vision introduces Aegon as the Prince who was promised. In ASOS, Tyrion says Gregor smashed Aegon's head and describes "his blood and his brains still on his hands" afterwards--another powerful hint that the baby Tywin presented to Robert could not be identified.

Throw in all the dead people's heads that can't be recognized (Ned, Davos, the miller's boys) and the hidden princes thought to be dead but actually alive (Bran and Rickon; also Jaime's fear that Jeyne Stark may be pregnant) and I don't see how anyone could be surprised if it turns out that Aegon is alive.

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

How can you read that without thinking that the "dashed skull" belonged to someone else?

[Kingmonkey]

Aegon's survival is one of the most heavily foreshadowed events in the series. In AGOT Ned tells us his skull was a 'red ruin'. - a clear hint that no one could identify the body. He is also conspicuously absent from the list of dead Targaryens discussed by Ned and the 3KG at the tower of joy. By the end of AGOT, we are supposed to wonder where Aegon really is.

Though I'm unfashionably willing to accept that fAegon may be real Aegon, I don't see the ToJ omission being relevant. Aegon and Aerys were at the same place and died at almost the same time. There was no point at which the 3KG at the ToJ would have had to consider Aegon, because by the time they heard that Aerys was dead, so (apparently) was Aegon.

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

How can you read that without thinking that the "dashed skull" belonged to someone else?

Well, promises do get broken. Ned dreamed "dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." We tend to assume that this refers to beds of blood and promises to Lyanna, but it's promises in the plural and maybe they're not all promises he made to Lyanna, and maybe some of that blood was baby Aegon's. Lyanna may have told Ned about Rhaegar's prophecy obsession.

[BearQueen87]

*speed reads through the past 3 pages I missed (are the holidays over YET?!?!?!)

1) Drogon = Dany's dragon. It is known *runs away before someone throws things at her*

2) @KingMonkey Thanks for bringing up BR and Elric. I meant to but had to dash off to work before I got to mention it.

3) Jon +Dragon = Kamikaze but alive...maaaaaaaybe. If anyone could it could be Jon but that does seems rather...super-magical?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Aegon's survival is one of the most heavily foreshadowed events in the series. In AGOT Ned tells us his skull was a 'red ruin'. - a clear hint that no one could identify the body. He is also conspicuously absent from the list of dead Targaryens discussed by Ned and the 3KG at the tower of joy. By the end of AGOT, we are supposed to wonder where Aegon really is.

In ACOK, Dany's HOTU vision introduces Aegon as the Prince who was promised. In ASOS, Tyrion says Gregor smashed Aegon's head and describes "his blood and his brains still on his hands" afterwards--another powerful hint that the baby Tywin presented to Robert could not be identified.

Throw in all the dead people's heads that can't be recognized (Ned, Davos, the miller's boys) and the hidden princes thought to be dead but actually alive (Bran and Rickon; also Jaime's fear that Jeyne Stark may be pregnant) and I don't see how anyone could be surprised if it turns out that Aegon is alive.

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

How can you read that without thinking that the "dashed skull" belonged to someone else?

I don't know that "foreshadowed" is the word I'd use. In hindsight, the observations you make do seem relevant. But none of them necessarily tell us anything about the boy's fate, apart from what we've already read of Young Griff, and Kevan Lannister's uncertainty about the child.

I think the most we can say is that, looking back, there is nothing in our story to rule out the possibility that Young Griff is the genuine article. And clearly Martin wrote his story with this plot development in mind all along.

Now, how young Aegon's fate continues to affect the assumptions we've made about other parts of the story remains to be seen. But if his route to safety took him through the Prince's Pass, and if Ned's encounter with the KG3 was a consequence of that rescue... then it's entirely possible that the unraveling of R+L=J theory has already begun.

.

[BearQueen87]

I don't know that "foreshadowed" is the word I'd use. In hindsight, the observations you make do seem relevant. But none of them necessarily tell us anything about the boy's fate, apart from what we've already read of Young Griff, and Kevan Lannister's uncertainty about the child.

I think the most we can say is that, looking back, there is nothing in our story to rule out the possibility that Young Griff is the genuine article. And clearly Martin wrote his story with this plot development in mind all along.

Now, how young Aegon's fate continues to affect the assumptions we've made about other parts of the story remains to be seen. But if his route to safety took him through the Prince's Pass, and if Ned's encounter with the KG3 was a consequence of that rescue... then it's entirely possible that the unraveling of R+L=J theory has already begun.

.

Okay, nothing to rule it out (though, I disagree here because of the way Illyrio talks about fAegon when he is sending Tyrion out to meet him. He talks like a father who is giving a personal gift and add in all the heavy handed references to the Blackfyres and the rebellions they caused and it's all giant red neon lighty).

However, I think GRRM is doing something different with fAegon. He's what Jon was supposed to be--he has the life Jon was supposed to have. Aegon is the definition of a hidden prince. He knows who he is, he has brought up with the expectation that he'll retake the IT, he's been educated and perfected to be palatable to the Westerosi people. But he's not a prince. He's really a fraud. And then there's Jon. Jon who think he's a bastard, who has no idea who his father (really) is and who is mother was. Who swore a vow to never have children, to die at his post up in a frozen tundra. Educated but not "perfected" and he's the real prince in hiding. I think GRRM wants us to look at fAegon and say, "ah, that's what Jon's life was supposed to be." The 3KG at the TOJ would take Jon and spirit him away, protecting him and raising him for R and L and then bring him back someday...and maybe unlike JonCon and Varys/Illyrio, they 3KG might not have kept quiet. They might have told, informed Westeros that there was another son of Rhaegar, alive and well. *shrug* Not saying Westeros would give a damn at that point, of course.

[sj4iy]

Okay, nothing to rule it out (though, I disagree here because of the way Illyrio talks about fAegon when he is sending Tyrion out to meet him. He talks like a father who is giving a personal gift and add in all the heavy handed references to the Blackfyres and the rebellions they caused and it's all giant red neon lighty).

However, I think GRRM is doing something different with fAegon. He's what Jon was supposed to be--he has the life Jon was supposed to have. Aegon is the definition of a hidden prince. He knows who he is, he has brought up with the expectation that he'll retake the IT, he's been educated and perfected to be palatable to the Westerosi people. But he's not a prince. He's really a fraud. And then there's Jon. Jon who think he's a bastard, who has no idea who his father (really) is and who is mother was. Who swore a vow to never have children, to die at his post up in a frozen tundra. Educated but not "perfected" and he's the real prince in hiding. I think GRRM wants us to look at fAegon and say, "ah, that's what Jon's life was supposed to be." The 3KG at the TOJ would take Jon and spirit him away, protecting him and raising him for R and L and then bring him back someday...and maybe unlike JonCon and Varys/Illyrio, they 3KG might not have kept quiet. They might have told, informed Westeros that there was another son of Rhaegar, alive and well. *shrug* Not saying Westeros would give a damn at that point, of course.

I think Aegon is the red herring to distract the audience from Jon.

[markg171]

I think Aegon is the red herring to distract the audience from Jon.

He's 4 books late then

[BearQueen87]

He's 4 books late then

Except everyone was speculating that fAegon was alive way back in ACOK and ASOS because of the way the dead baby was described and remembered

ETA: and if not alive, that he would be claimed to have survived for some plot-reasons. (which is what is happening now with the final Blackfyre plot)

[markg171]

Except everyone was speculating that fAegon was alive way back in ACOK and ASOS because of the way the dead baby was described and remembered

ETA: and if not alive, that he would be claimed to have survived for some plot-reasons. (which is what is happening now with the final Blackfyre plot)

But you can't claim he's a distraction, if he does not distract. He just showed up, he's a little late to be a distraction.

[BearQueen87]

But you can't claim he's a distraction, if he does not distract. He just showed up, he's a little late to be a distraction.

How is the boy who is taking Storm's End with the Golden Company, while claiming to be the last living son of Rhaegar Targaryen, while people cheer and celebrate him as such "not a distraction"

[sj4iy]

People were expecting Jon to come out and find that he was the Promised Prince, and Rhaegar's true heir.

Then along comes Aegon, who has a better claim and was even believed by Rhaegar to be the Promised Prince.

To me, this is a red herring. To misdirect the audience...and it's worked with quite a few of them, who believe he's the real thing.

[J. Stargaryen]

Unless, looking back, it turns out that the presence of 3 KG in the Prince's Pass was a clue to Aegon's survival and escape all along. (Interesting name that, isn't it... "Prince's Pass?")

'Course, after 15 years of reading and theorizing, many of us were quite invested in the idea that those KG knights were there to protect Jon. We had nothing else to go on, after all. But now that it turns out Aegon may have survived, we are presented a much more sensible explanation for what those KG were actually doing.

Suddenly Martin's story is in potential conflict with the theories and explanations readers have constructed to explain apparent inconsistencies over the years. I find it fascinating to see how different audiences negotiate that conflict...

.

In Dorne, where the ruling House uses the titles prince and princess? Btw, Rhaegar and Jon were princes too.

Two isolated data points, one of which is highly dubious, do not add up to "much more sensible" in my book. If you just ignore 99.99% of the story, this totally works!

What conflict? There's not even an Aegon at the ToJ theory. It's just a suggestion that has failed to materialize, despite being given ample opportunity to do so. That's not a good sign.

[markg171]

How is the boy who is taking Storm's End with the Golden Company, while claiming to be the last living son of Rhaegar Targaryen, while people cheer and celebrate him as such "not a distraction"

If Jon is really the son of Rhaegar, and Aegon is to distract us of this, why is he 5 books late then? He should have been distracting us from the beginning, like Dany is. Dany's story is the one whose doesn't add up, and she's been there from the beginning.

And if Aegon is Aegon, he's the elder brother with the better claim. There is no distracting. He's the prince that was promised according to Rhaegar, and the elder brother.