R+L=J v.121

[sj4iy]

Personally, I would find it much more 'poetic' that Jon rides Rhaegal, as it is his father's namesake.

[sj4iy]

There's so much wrong with that. You basically went "Random words, random words, RLJ is true" without explaining a thing.

Something R+L=J opposers never do :P

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

There is absolutely no chance of Aegon being at the tower. Jaime was guarding Aegon at the Red Keep, and Jaime knows that Aegon is dead, dead, dead.

Seems a rather brash statement to make given that, five books in, Martin's introduced an entire storyline based on the possibility that the child was rescued and survived. Also, I myself tend to view Jaime as one of our less reliable narrators.

So all things considered, I can certainly agree to disagree on this.

[sj4iy]

Seems a rather brash statement to make given that, five books in, Martin's introduced an entire storyline based on the possibility that the child was rescued and survived. Also, I myself tend to view Jaime as one of our less reliable narrators.

So all things considered, I can certainly agree to disagree on this.

And I consider Varys about 100x more unreliable than Jaime.

[Mithras]

Bigger and better dragons were killed in the first dance by other dragons. That's not an issue here.

Meraxes and Vermax were killed by people. I am not counting the Storming of Dragonpit but if Dany's dragons get trapped in an enclosed place like that, people can kill them easily.

I'm saying that I don't see Dany dying and Jon taking her mount when he could more easily take one of the other dragons as his mount.

If there is no dragon left by the time Dany comes North except Drogon, then there will be no other choice.

[Mithras]

First off, love that you and Mithras know your Elric :)

As for Jon, the other side of the balance is that the Others are winter made flesh and it will be interesting how much the Nights Kings coupling with the "she-Other" impacted the Stark bloodline given their own incestuous practices.

Wasn't it a demon king and his daughters the Starks and the other Northmen captured after defeating him where they may have come by their warging?

(I don't have my WB in front of me).

I think Brandon the Builder was the son of the LH from a CotF. I think Boltons are descended from the progeny of the NK and Lady Other. It is said that the feud between the Boltons and Starks date back to the LN. Why did BtB spare that progeny? Because I think the NK was related to the Starks and they didnot want to kinslay.

It was a warg king and his greenseers.

I'm not sure that killing the dragons need be that complicated, (as much as I love TZE).

If we take the dragons real-life counterparts, reptiles, who actually take their body warmth which they need to survive from their surrounding environment as reptiles literally cannot move in cold, winter, or the coming Westerosi "ice age" is a weapon itself, which is why contextually, it might make sense to the story to introduce a "winter dragon," taking much poetic license with adaptive evolution.

In Ice Dragon story, three fire dragons were wasted by an ice dragon.

[Mithras]

And I consider Varys about 100x more unreliable than Jaime.

You can make a list of the people who trusted in Varys and what happened to them.

[The Twinslayer]

There is absolutely no chance of Aegon being at the tower. Jaime was guarding Aegon at the Red Keep, and Jaime knows that Aegon is dead, dead, dead.

How would he know that?

"A faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word."

Isn't the whole point hat no one could recognize the dead boy--even Jaime?

[Alia of the knife]

In Ice Dragon story, three fire dragons were wasted by an ice dragon.

Exactly.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And I consider Varys about 100x more unreliable than Jaime.

Varys is certainly a mystery. But he's not a narrator at all, so we're less likely to trust or sympathize with him in the first place. Still, Varys was already a player during (and prior to) the Rebellion, and would have had real awareness of the risks, decisions, and priorities of various parties at that time. In contrast, Jaime was a 17 yr old kid, still new to the KG, conflicted in his own priorities, and actually sort of an idiot. He was clearly a pawn in a game that he didn't understand and was not equipped to play.

Jaime reports what he saw of events, and how he participated in them... but he was clearly not privy to the motives and priorities of decision-makers at the time. In fact, it's not until he loses his hand 16 yrs later - and really not until after Tywin's death - that Jaime begins thinking about shit... using his brain instead of his sword. So in his thirties, he's finally starting to grow up a little bit.

[finger]

^I'd say it's equal to: "It wasn't Aegon, stupid."

That stated, Varys knew Aegon was alive, but that's the only thing he knew. I don't think Varys had saved him.

In normal times, if Aegon wasn't where he was meant to be and some KG,s are nowhere to be found, the obvious conclusion is they're together. Logic 101. It seems the notion disturbs the funtions of some people's brain, but that's not my fault.

No, the KG,s weren't so silly as to indulge in pretty fightings, and leave Aegon at Ned's hands reach. Of course they've sent him to the safest place they could find. Their task was protecting the king, or the royals, even if it meant hiding, fleeing, lying, cheating, or losing their own lives. Their task didn't involve making heroic stances in the middle of nowhere, unless it was of some use for the former.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

"A faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word."

Isn't the whole point hat no one could recognize the dead boy--even Jaime?

Funny detail being that everything important was mentioned at least somehow in A Game of Thrones (1996). Jump ahead 4 more books and 15 years to A Dance with Dragons (2011) to learn of this supposedly important tidbit...

I am not saying Varys would not have been able to do it, as he has proven it already in A Storm of Swords. I say I find this is something that comes not only unexpected but also un-alluded and un-foreshadowed and it smells fishy.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

How would he know that?

"A faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word."

Isn't the whole point hat no one could recognize the dead boy--even Jaime?

Yes, I'd say that was the point. Kevan Lannister's last thought on the subject amounts to a "turning of the tables" moment from Martin. Kevan was an adult at the time of the Sack, more attentive and less emotionally involved than Jaime would have been. He was also a witness to the presentation of dead children in the throne room, and Tywin's right hand man.

Overall, the implication is that if Kevan Lannister can't be sure whether Aegon lived or died, then neither can we. And if that forces us to reconsider certain theories and assumptions we've made since book one... well, that's what you might call a major twist.

[sj4iy]

Meraxes and Vermax were killed by people. I am not counting the Storming of Dragonpit but if Dany's dragons get trapped in an enclosed place like that, people can kill them easily.

They were killed by people who knew about dragons.

If Rhaegal and Viserion are truly going to die in Meereen, then having three dragons was the biggest waste of story ever. Plus there three heads of the dragon...if that doesn't mean three dragon riders, then I don't know what does.

If there is no dragon left by the time Dany comes North except Drogon, then there will be no other choice.

I find this a pretty absurd statement. Why are you so sure that the other dragons are doomed to die, because I see nothing foreshadowing it at all.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...I find this is something that comes not only unexpected but also un-alluded and un-foreshadowed and it smells fishy.

Unless, looking back, it turns out that the presence of 3 KG in the Prince's Pass was a clue to Aegon's survival and escape all along. (Interesting name that, isn't it... "Prince's Pass?")

'Course, after 15 years of reading and theorizing, many of us were quite invested in the idea that those KG knights were there to protect Jon. We had nothing else to go on, after all. But now that it turns out Aegon may have survived, we are presented a much more sensible explanation for what those KG were actually doing.

Suddenly Martin's story is in potential conflict with the theories and explanations readers have constructed to explain apparent inconsistencies over the years. I find it fascinating to see how different audiences negotiate that conflict...

.

[Eira Seren]

snip. . .

And re: the "broken promises" that haunt Ned in his cell below the Red Keep... in my view, the context of that passage is ambiguous. It seems at least as likely as not (to me) that the promises he's broken are those he made to Robert on the king's death bed. But Martin does not make that clear. Rather typical of his style, of course...

That's interesting, I always thought he meant that he'd broken his promise to talk to Jon about his mother. But was that in the books? Now maybe am getting my wires crossed with the show.

I just changed jobs, so its been crazy with lots of aSoIaF catch-up, but yes, I think that is a very good theory .

Totally understand, am experiencing something similar. Good luck with your new job!

[Mithras]

They were killed by people who knew about dragons.

If Rhaegal and Viserion are truly going to die in Meereen, then having three dragons was the biggest waste of story ever. Plus there three heads of the dragon...if that doesn't mean three dragon riders, then I don't know what does.


I find this a pretty absurd statement. Why are you so sure that the other dragons are doomed to die, because I see nothing foreshadowing it at all.

I didnot say that Rhaegal and Viserion will die in Meereen. I think Viserion will be wounded by one of those ironbolts. If the Yunkai forces are knowledgeable enough to build scorpions, I am sure that Team fAegon and Stannis can get prepared properly to face dragons. I think Viserion will die during Dany/Stannis war and Rhaegal will die during the Second Dance.

Three dragons are not waste because they will serve their purpose by being helpful to Dany but at the same time, they take part in the great red herring called "three dragonriders = three heads of the dragon". Dany will think that the dragonriders of Viserion and Rhaegal will be dragon heads and she will trust them, which I think she will rue.

“Well, how long does a dragon live?” She looked up as Viserion swooped low over the ship, his wings beating slowly and stirring the limp sails.

Ser Jorah shrugged. “A dragon’s natural span of days is many times as long as a man’s, or so the songs would have us believe . . . but the dragons the Seven Kingdoms knew best were those of House Targaryen. They were bred for war, and in war they died. It is no easy thing to slay a dragon, but it can be done.”

I take this as foreshadowing to Viserion's death, given that he is mentioned just after Dany asked for the life expectancy of dragons. And even Jorah thinks that dragons can be slain.

[sj4iy]

I don't see that as foreshadowing of Viserion's death. He's just telling her that dragons are not invincible. That doesn't mean they are destined to die and that Jon will take Dany's mount after she dies. I seriously don't see the sense in that.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

That's interesting, I always thought he meant that he'd broken his promise to talk to Jon about his mother. But was that in the books? Now maybe am getting my wires crossed with the show.

Hey, Eira, how's it going? :)

I'm much less familiar with the show. I've watched 3.5 seasons all the way through (once), but mostly I try to stay focused on the books. And in the books, there's really no clear referent for those broken promises Ned dreams of while in prison. It's very vague. And there's nothing in the books to indicate that Ned promised Jon a particular conversation. (I do think he says something to that effect in the show.)

[Han Snow]

I don't see that as foreshadowing of Viserion's death. He's just telling her that dragons are not invincible. That doesn't mean they are destined to die and that Jon will take Dany's mount after she dies. I seriously don't see the sense in that.

Well, one of the possible scenarios unfolding is that at that point in the story Dany and Jon are close and if she is still alive she lets/wants him to skinchange into Drogon as the last measure to stop the Great Other (an enormous Ice Dragon). But more likely she died some time before during childbirth! :P The actual ending of the series is that she died during childbirth, Jon dies a true death while killing TGO with Drogon. Tyrion is left as the Protector of the realm to raise Jon's and Dany's son, grooming him for kingship.

Anyways, Azor Ahai as some great Savior crap and all the three heads of the dragon being three dragonrides seems like bullcrap to me. Time will tell. When we finally see A dream of springs in our bookstores.