How reliable are the SSMs?

[The Twinslayer]

As a general matter?

For example, there is an SSM from 1999 that says that Ashara Dayne "was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar." This implies that Elia and Rhaegar lived in King's Landing after they got married.

Compare it to the passage from the world book that says that Elia and Rhaegar were married in 280 AC, that they "chose to take up residence in Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep," and that Rhaenys was born "on Dragonstone in 280 AC. Plus, from ADWD, "After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year." This implies that Rhaegar and Elia did not live in King's Landing for at least a year or two after they got married.

Anyway, what do you think? Are the SSMs generally pretty reliable?

[Viserys - The last dragon]

Yep.. They stand for "so spoke Martin" after all.. But of course he might make mistakes if a question surprises him, I suppose.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think it's "semi-canon". Like, they are canon until GRRM says they aren't.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

They are semi-canon... That means, for the time being, it happened the way the SSM's state... until GRRM decides to make a change after all, which he writes into the canon works. He's always allowed to change his mind and work this change into his writing after all.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

The SSM you are referring to occurred in 1999. In 1999 Martin still was stuck on three book plan for whole series. Series got bigger necessita't.ting some changes in story.

Otherwise SSMs are reliable, semi canno untill GRRM clearly says it isn't

[The Drunkard]

If he's talking about character motivations or important events I imagine they might as well be as reliable as anything in the books. Stuff like this, which is a pretty minor historical detail, is probably more likely to be changed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Speaking of the SSMs, I was trying to navigate the whole bunch of them for some new information we could have missed. For instance, there is one about how we'll find out about Arthur Dayne later, kinda hinting, imho, his involvement with either Rhaegar's fulfilling the prophecy or with the removal of Aerys. But I gave up because there are SO MANY of them and so many facts around.

So, if anyone wants to join me into digging them all, year by year and collect what we can find and have an index, let me know. (but it's a project for next year).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Speaking of the SSMs, I was trying to navigate the whole bunch of them for some new information we could have missed. For instance, there is one about how we'll find out about Arthur Dayne later, kinda hinting, imho, his involvement with either Rhaegar's fulfilling the prophecy or with the removal of Aerys. But I gave up because there are SO MANY of them and so many facts around.

So, if anyone wants to join me into digging them all, year by year and collect what we can find and have an index, let me know. (but it's a project for next year).

Why not simply search for your topics using this page? The only problem would be the stuff titled "some questions" or "multiple questions".

http://westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/all

[ThunderG]

He makes up stuff as goes and doesn't care what he said/wrote before.

Also, he has probably rewritten everything a few times before releasing it so he probably doesn't know what finally ended up in the books.

[JNR]

In any conflict between SSMs (direct statements by the series author) and the World book (ambiguous remarks by a maester or multiple maesters who weren't there and often have no clue, as written primarily by Elio and Linda), I would throw the World book on the fire and forget about it.

The World book is absolutely loaded with gross inaccuracies, just hilarious and wrong-by-design statements. The first two sentences of the very first chapter, for instance, suggest the age of the planet is perhaps 500,000 years... a figure that is almost certainly off by some four orders of magnitude. An incredible failure, not unlike the kind often seen in these very forums.

Anything involving the Targaryens is a little dubious not just because the maester wasn't there, and GRRM did not personally write most of the text, but also because the maester is trying to suck up to the current administration (not Targs, to say the least). He is often going to slant things, obscure things, rephrase things, or flat-out lie about things in the attempt to secure their favor.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why not simply search for your topics using this page? The only problem would be the stuff titled "some questions" or "multiple questions".

http://westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/all

There is still info hidden.

[Consigliere]

The World book is absolutely loaded with gross inaccuracies, just hilarious and wrong-by-design statements. The first two sentences of the very first chapter, for instance, suggest the age of the planet is perhaps 500,000 years... a figure that is almost certainly off by some four orders of magnitude. An incredible failure, not unlike the kind often seen in these very forums.

It most certainly does not suggest that the world is 500,000 years old. In fact it quite clearly implies that the maesters have no idea how old the world actually is.

“THERE ARE NONE who can say with certain knowledge when the world began, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old, as some hold, or perhaps a number as large as five hundred thousand—or even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered.”

[markg171]

Haven't looked too much into them, but I know in one he says that we will learn of Jon Snow's parents, and then in a Q&A he did he apparently says that Jon Snow will learn of his parents. Both of which obviously have completely different meanings.

[Clegane'sPup]

Yep.. They stand for "so spoke Martin" after all.. But of course he might make mistakes if a question surprises him, I suppose.

So spoke Martin. And you know that he might make a mistake if the question suprises him.

SSM's are related to this Westeros board, which are canon???

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There is still info hidden.

How do you mean?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

How do you mean?

I mean that there are stuff there he has said and we have forgotten. The Arthur Dayne quote is an example. The whole "there will be a second dance" is also ther,e but not in the pages, but it's a link. Stuff like that.

[GallopingGhost]

I watched LOST, listened to all the podcasts from the writers and read everything I could. They blended the truth many times...and had to. It was a show with mysteries. I can't take everything Martin says as completely truthful. He has mysteries to protect. I would consider him an unreliable narrator.