Sansa, Her Quirky Perception & Memory, & the new "Hound"

[Pod The Impaler]

I don't want Brienne or Sandor dead, so I'm still hopeful (I'm sure GRRM will tromp all over that in Winds). The similarities between Brienne and Sandor are striking, though--good eye! I hadn't noticed most of those. I am curious as to how Sansa will come back into the game after her creepy interlude in the Vale.

I've joked before that Brienne is what you'd get if Sandor and Sansa had a child, and that child had Sandor's body and Sansa's heart.

[Dya of Oldstones]

I've joked before that Brienne is what you'd get if Sandor and Sansa had a child, and that child had Sandor's body and Sansa's heart.

Pretty close, except Brienne is a blonde. -_-

[Grail King]

If there is a shadow of a Hound are you talking about Lem Lemon cloak being involved
?

[Lady Meliora]

I've joked before that Brienne is what you'd get if Sandor and Sansa had a child, and that child had Sandor's body and Sansa's heart.

That is...I...wow... That is actually probably 100% true. Poor Brienne.

[ummester]

I like the idea of Brienne becoming unHound and battling Robert Strong.

And I also want Sandor to remain at peace amongst the graves - I don't want him to come back into the fray anymore, I feel like he has earned his time off.

So I don't mind the implications of this theory.

[ChillyPolly]

If there is a shadow of a Hound are you talking about Lem Lemon cloak being involved

?

I anticipate that the plan is that "the Hound" will show up, in the POV of other characters. If GRRM lets drop a clue about thick lips, one reader may argue: "see that proves its Lem", and another will say, "So what? We don't know what kind of lips Sandor has - they are never described".

So it's two distractions ... to keep readers from guessing it is actually Brienne.

[voodooqueen126]

Currently writing an essay on Jane Austen (I am here procrastinating) and reading about the underlying ideology of Jane Austen, has inspired me to write an essay comparing Sansa and Jane Austen's (flawed) heroines, as well as 18th century literary heroines*.

One of the major themes of which is the heroine coming away from foolishness, delusion and prejudice. I believe in many of the Gothic/Horrible novels of the 18th century there are also melodramatic cases of mistaken identity.

*As seen in Anne Radcliffe, Fanny Burney, Maria Edgeworth, and Elizabeth Inchbold.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I haven't read the books so maybe why this is why I don't really understand the point of this thread, as much as I love Sansa.

Can someone dumb this down for me? I'm going to have to read this at least one more time.

I've read the books multiple times, but I'd like to see this dumbed down too.

OP: I read a lot of interesting thoughts in your post, but I don't see what your main contention(s) is(are)...

[Lost Melnibonean]

In a nutshell, the theory holds that (1) Sansa does not know Sandor's face very well; (2) Sandor will become a new (and better) person and adopt a new identity; (3) Another person will adopt Sandor's old "The Hound" identity, and become a monster; (4) Sansa (and perhaps the reader, seeing things through Sansa's eyes) will not know the difference for some time.

Oh, Ok. Never mind. I got it. I thought you were going in a different direction.

[ChillyPolly]

Oh, Ok. Never mind. I got it. I thought you were going in a different direction.

The theory goes in a number of directions, though you need not buy them all at once. It also anticipates that Brienne has become a revenant, that Jaime will return as a revenant, that Jaime will be a demonic manifestation of "AA reborn" with an animated golden hand wielding a flaming sword.

On the bright side, it anticipates that Sansa and Sandor will remain human. But (regardless of how their story may end) it anticipates a rocky road fully of misunderstanding.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

There is so much awesome stuff happening around Sansa right now, relating to LF, the Vale (which has parallels to her in many ways: "Andal" [tully] on the outside, First Men [stark] on the inside, as at least half of the Vale's most powerful houses are First Men), Brienne, Jaime, and much more.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The theory goes in a number of directions, though you need not buy them all at once. It also anticipates that Brienne has become a revenant, that Jaime will return as a revenant, that Jaime will be a demonic manifestation of "AA reborn" with an animated golden hand wielding a flaming sword.

On the bright side, it anticipates that Sansa and Sandor will remain human. But (regardless of how their story may end) it anticipates a rocky road fully of misunderstanding.

I had some slightly similar ideas here...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115959-the-power-of-beric-and-catelyn-comes-from-the-old-gods-not-the-lord-of-light-and-jaime-will-be-next/

[Annarkie]

Although I can see Sansa being fooled momentarily, or from a distance at the sight of someone wearing the Hound's helm, there are other issues I have with this theory,

What motivation would Brienne, or really anybody have to disguise themselves as The Hound to get to Sansa? Brienne never met the hound, only heard about him at the quiet isle, and she and literally no one else has any idea that Sansa had any relationship with Sandor whatsoever.

Still, I think the passing around of the helm is going to lead to something interesting.

[ChillyPolly]

Although I can see Sansa being fooled momentarily, or from a distance at the sight of someone wearing the Hound's helm, there are other issues I have with this theory,

What motivation would Brienne, or really anybody have to disguise themselves as The Hound to get to Sansa? Brienne never met the hound, only heard about him at the quiet isle, and she and literally no one else has any idea that Sansa had any relationship with Sandor whatsoever.

I cannot anticipate the precise circumstances in which Sansa and Brienne will meet and Sansa will mistake Brienne for the Hound. I'm not even sure Brienne needs a conscious motive for impersonation. Much of the setup so far has been quite unconscious on anyone's part. It is being maneuvered and manipulated by Fate or Destiny or Rh'llor or GRRM or whatever. For instance, it is not as though Brienne planned on getting half her face bitten off and then badly healed by a red priest. Her motive for wearing the Hound helm may be little more than a desire for a helm to protect her head, using a helm which happens to be available and which happens to fit. On the other hand, her encounter with Jaime suggests she retains considerable guile, and has already conceived the idea of using "the Hound" for deception and misdirection.

I don't agree that Sansa will only mistake "the Hound" momentarily or at a distance, while wearing the helm. Anyone could do that with someone they know, no matter how well they knew them. If that were all that will happen, there would be no need for this elaborate setup, including a subplot around her refusal to look at his face.

I understand there is an entire club of SanSan fanatics who will vigorously deny that Sansa does not have a photo-perfect memory of every last detail of Sandor's face. These people have picked up on what may be subtle foreshadowing of a suppressed or incipient chemistry between these two, and have run with it to the point where they imagine, against all sane evidence, that they are practically lovers already, devouring each other with their eyes, and longing for a consummation that they perversely deny themselves.

But this is not true. Sansa's terror of Sandor and her refusal to look at Sandor has remained an issue between them throughout their relationship. It was an issue during their final encounter ("Still can't bear to look, can you?"), and the encounter before that ("The little bird still can't bear to look at me, can she?"). She looks only when forced to, and even then there is a question as to how much she sees or accurately remembers.

Sansa has a tendency to suppress and mis-remember things that frighten her. The "unkiss" is an example of this. SanSan fanatics offer this as proof that she is fantasizing about him sexually, but they are forgetting what it was that Sandor did INSTEAD of kiss her that she evidently does NOT remember. Yes, she THOUGHT he was about to kiss her as he leaned in close, but THEN .... [abject terror - memory blocked out]. "Confabulation" is the term used by psychologists ... a false memory that the mind unconsciously creates to fill in a gap in memory. We also see this in her tendency to pretend that Petyr is a protective father figure, rather than a pervy molestor biding his time.

[ChillyPolly]

No, she does not miss things that others see as well as see things others miss. She has fabricated a sexual fantasy about a man she desires. This does not indicate that she is anything other than a normal teenager, as it is a thing lots of teens do. And a sword name, gee man really? cos of course its totally weird to misremember a thing like that :wacko:

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To assume that because Sansa is skilled at recognising small details she has been taught about a person, house sigils ect means she is dozy enough to not realise that someone may not always be the person they present as, ie wearing the wrong sigil etc is just silly. Its so silly I can't believe you even wrote that.

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Erm, No, Sandors scars are so bad you can see his jaw and teeth as part of his cheek is completely gone! not superficial at all, He got lots of new injuries sure, but I doubt very much extra scars will render him unrecognisable to the one person who thinks about him daily. He still has his horse, the helm is lost to him, sure but I doubt very much someone else popping up wearing it would fool Sansa into thinking they are him.

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No Sansa starts out unable to look at his face, as its pretty gross, but she looks eventually and at the end when she closes her eyes it is not to avoid seeing his face. She got over that quite some time ago. And again she thinks of him every damn day, she fantasises about him, she knows his face.

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this is not some mystical abillity, Sansa used this tactic when forced to look at her fathers head on a spike, and told herself it does not really look like him at all, as a way to avoid deep and disturbing trauma. She knows full well that head was her daddy. It was an act of self preservation, not some special skill she can pull out of her bag of tricks. It is something most people would try to do, and trying and telling yourself is not some magic wand waving party trick.

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Well his wiki description says it is true. Now I am not saying this means it is 100% true, but as I don't have my books to check I'm gonna go with it. "It seems to indicate" being the operative phrase. You think is seems to indicate this. i don't To me it seems to indicate that his scaring is pretty darn extensive and she noticed that. And as it says in the Wiki he indeed does only have one ear, then your argument that she is seeing things which are not there is BS.

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No, it is totally normal to interpret people you hates looks as gross, even if they really aren't. She says his lips are fat and wormy after she begins to hate him, but he is a handsome lad and we know this because other POV's also say so. he is described as pouty lipped. so I'd say he has a full mouth. Now as a person with a full mouth I can assure you that the interpretation of this alters depending upon the person who is describing you's opinion of you. Some lads used to say I had a really sexy mouth, some made fun and called me mick Jagger, others rubber dingy lips. Others whispered I had BJ lips. All depends upon the persons view of you. Not an indicator that she misses things and only realises he has big lips after she starts hating him.

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This only indicates that she is thinking of him constantly, because you know, she is besotted with him.

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Yea, it indicates she wishes she had kissed him. It doesn't indicate she will suddenly forget what his face looks like, or anything else about him. :rolleyes:

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Yea, so what. How does the fact other people are wearing the helm effect her abillity to recognise him. Even Jaime says he doesn't see the Hound doing the things he hears of.

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This entire paragraph rests upon the word May

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The only thing I agree with you about at all, is that Brienne seems to be being set up to be mistaken for the Hound. But I really do notthink there is a hope in all seven hells thats Sansa would be fooled. Not for a second.

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Do you even know what you are trying to infer here?

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As has already been explained, Brienne was not hung by the break your neck method, but the slow suffocation method. Plenty of time to cut her down after she says sword. It was conditional, she gave her an ultimatum, and she chose sword. Lem is no hardened executioner, he is just a fella. She says the word that LSH gave her as an option to save herself and Hyle & Pod. Why would he just keep on hanging them? This assumption is based on nothing but your opinion. Yea so would you under the circumstances. jeez! The "death" themed dream she appears in of Jaime's shows her with her sword still alight and his dream tells him when the swords go out you will die. meaning she is still alive at the end of his dream and he is dead. Her dream regarding renly, is her remembering Stannis's shadow killing him. So A shadow which looked like Renly but was not him is dun dun dun.....his BROTHER!! She has no POV in ADWD, well nor does Sam, or Sansa, or Damp Hair. So are you assuming them dead too? You can't just decide anyone who isn't in ADWD is an undead zombie. your basing it on Sweet FA! What rumours about TWOW again you are making this up. Just because no one has confirmed there will be a Brienne chapter does not mean there will not. That is false logic. I have no clue what you are even attempting to imply with your Jaime nonsense.

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Well this entire paragraph is based upon your unsubstantiated assumption that she is a zombie. So no.

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No, it shows a person in love worrying that their beloved may hear things about them which would incline them to not reciprocate those feelings. And how is this fear in anyway connected to what an Unbrienne Hound ' a like might do???? and why would Sansa faced with a Brienne dressed as the Hound dressed as a Zombie for a second not realise it is not Sandor? Because like this is the girl who lays in bed dreaming of the dude?

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Well that's a lot of maybe's and supposition.

Most of this is not worth much of a response, since you are essentially saying, in effect, things like: This is just a theory you cannot prove it absolutely, and I don't like it because it does not match my theories. Which is true. It is a theory, not the next volume. And if you don't like it you don't like it. But a few commends and clarifications might be helpful.

(1) Yes, she does miss things that others see and vice versa. That is true of everybody. Nobody is omnicient, and nobody has identical perceptions. I certainly did not expect an argument on that point, which is pretty fundamental.

(2) No I do not assume that being able to recognize sigils automatically translates to an inability to recognize faces. Obviously Sansa can do both, to some extent.

(3) When I refer to Sandor's scars and helmet as a "superficial" traits, I merely mean that one does not need a very good knowledge of his underlying facial features to be able to recognize him by his helmet or his scars. I do not mean that the scars are minor; if anything, I mean quite the reverse - that the scars are very obvious and tend to be the focus of attention.

(4) Sansa never gets over her inability or reluctance to look at Sandor's face. It is an issue between them in their final meeting, and in the meeting just before their final meeting; and Sandor explicitly comments on it both times. Regardless of what it means or what it does not mean, the text is directly against you here.

(5) I never said anything to imply that Sansa's ability to "look without seeing" was "mystical".

(6) I'm not interested in what the Wiki says. If you cannot be bothered to check the books I cite, what can I do?

(7) Lem is indeed a hardened executioner. And it is certainly plausible that he would keep on hanging her no matter what she screamed. Those are, after all, his orders. Is it POSSIBLE that he might cut have her down? Sure! One can always hope.

(8) Hanging is almost always fatal, regardless of whether the "break your neck" method is used.

(9) I never said that full-lipped people, like Mick Jagger, were unattractive. I merely pointed out that there was precedent for Sansa noticing fat lips for the first time, after realizing a person is a monster. Hence, if she notices fat lips on "the Hound" for the first time, after he does something awful, she may not trust her memory and think "That cannot be Sandor".

[ache]

I don't agree that Sansa will only mistake "the Hound" momentarily or at a distance, while wearing the helm. Anyone could do that with someone they know, no matter how well they knew them. If that were all that will happen, there would be no need for this elaborate setup, including a subplot around her refusal to look at his face.

I understand there is an entire club of SanSan fanatics who will vigorously deny that Sansa does not have a photo-perfect memory of every last detail of Sandor's face. These people have picked up on what may be subtle foreshadowing of a suppressed or incipient chemistry between these two, and have run with it to the point where they imagine, against all sane evidence, that they are practically lovers already, devouring each other with their eyes, and longing for a consummation that they perversely deny themselves.

But this is not true. Sansa's terror of Sandor and her refusal to look at Sandor has remained an issue between them throughout their relationship. It was an issue during their final encounter ("Still can't bear to look, can you?"), and the encounter before that ("The little bird still can't bear to look at me, can she?"). She looks only when forced to, and even then there is a question as to how much she sees or accurately remembers.

Sansa has a tendency to suppress and mis-remember things that frighten her. The "unkiss" is an example of this. SanSan fanatics offer this as proof that she is fantasizing about him sexually, but they are forgetting what it was that Sandor did INSTEAD of kiss her that she evidently does NOT remember. Yes, she THOUGHT he was about to kiss her as he leaned in close, but THEN .... [abject terror - memory blocked out]. "Confabulation" is the term used by psychologists ... a false memory that the mind unconsciously creates to fill in a gap in memory. We also see this in her tendency to pretend that Petyr is a protective father figure, rather than a pervy molestor biding his time.

Come on, there are a bunch of instances where Sansa describes Sandor's eyes in detail, both the colour and expression, the way his mouth twitches, his brow, his hair etc etc. There is a chapter where he comes to fetch her to Joffrey where she knows something is wrong just from the way he looks at her, indicating that she has looked him in the face enough to discern the difference between his "looks".

The last time she saw him it was clearly stated that she closed her eyes because she thought he was about to kiss her. Sandor was mistaken in thinking it was because she "couldn't bear to look", he's pretty over-sensitive about that.

Sansa also didn't replace the dagger memory with the unkiss, she remembers both but thinks more often of the kiss.

I'm no shipper but no way in the world would Sansa mistake a close-up Brienne for Sandor.

Edited to add - there is also his voice, it is always described in detail in her POV.

[Minuteman]

It's an interesting theory. Like most I didn't catch all the similarities between Brienne and Sandor. I don't think that Brienne is the next Hound though for two main reasons:

(1) Bran saw three shadows moving all about his father and sisters. Shadows effecting their fates. At this point I don't think it can be argued that Gregor, Sandor, and Jaime are other than these three. Ned dispatched Dondarrion to bring Gregor to justice which led him to direct conflict with the Lannisters and his eventual downfall. Gregors men took Arya captive leading to her meeting JH and the FM. If Gregor is Robert Strong then he still has a part to play in what will likely be a Cersei-Sansa confrontation. Jaime has been intricately involved in Ned's death and the attempt to re-unite the Stark girls. And Sandor has been involved with all three critically throughout the series. So these three are the shadows haunting Ned and the Stark girls past, present, and future.

(2) I don't buy Sandor on a redemption arc living his life as a monk on the QI. Old dog and new tricks if you pardon the pun. He is who he always was. He won't take kindly to being blamed for the atrocity at Saltpans so will come out to clear his name. GRRM has described him as being fiercely loyal like a dog. But dogs also like to be treated well which is why he broke with the Lannisters. He was on his way to join Robb when the BwB captured him so he, like Brienne, is on a bit of a quest which will likely lead him to become a sworn shield to the Starks which presently is Sansa. I don't buy into the San-San love theories I just think he sees in the Starks a "pack" to which he can belong. So in his soul he is still a hound and he does have a terrible face.

Brienne did indeed look bad when Jaime saw her but as you mentioned she had recently had a large part of her face bitten off. Even if she was hung being hung from horseback isn't the instantaneous death that drop hanging causes so she could easily survive a short time being strung up. My finger in the wind theory is that Sandor comes off the QI looking for "the Hound" which leads to the BwB. Brienne knows that he last had Arya but nothing more. Sandor can inform them that he was taking Arya to the Vale when she left him for dead and would likely have continued on. So Brienne and Sandor can go to find Arya in the Vale but find Sansa there instead.

[ChillyPolly]

Come on, there are a bunch of instances where Sansa describes Sandor's eyes in detail, both the colour and expression, the way his mouth twitches, his brow, his hair etc etc. There is a chapter where he comes to fetch her to Joffrey where she knows something is wrong just from the way he looks at her, indicating that she has looked him in the face enough to discern the difference between his "looks".

The last time she saw him it was clearly stated that she closed her eyes because she thought he was about to kiss her. Sandor was mistaken in thinking it was because she "couldn't bear to look", he's pretty over-sensitive about that.

Sansa also didn't replace the dagger memory with the unkiss, she remembers both but thinks more often of the kiss.

I'm no shipper but no way in the world would Sansa mistake a close-up Brienne for Sandor.

Edited to add - there is also his voice, it is always described in detail in her POV.

This is basically the "mistaken identity is impossible" theory. Unfortunately, the idea that human facial recognition skills are infallible flies squarely in the face of any number of real world examples. The fallibility of human recognition is also repeatedly emphasized by GRRM in the text. As Sandor explains to Arya (who was amazed that anyone who knew Sandor could fail to recognize him); and as Littlefinger explains to Sansa before they meet the party from the Vale below -- people see what they expect to see. They also tend to believe what they are told.

The backup theory, that human memory and recognition, while maybe fallible for people in general, is nonetheless infallible for Sansa with respect to Sandor, because she knows his face PARTICULARLY well, is also not supported by the text.

Why mention his eyes? Yes, Sansa probably remembers his eyes look angry. She may even (possibly) remember that they are grey. But Sandor's eyes may not be angry any more, because Sandor may not be angry any more (does not the Elder Brother hint as much?). And blue eyes can appear grey in dim light or in shadow; and it is also possible that the changes of undeath turn blue to grey. So that's a wash.

His mouth twitches? Will she be sure Sandor is not Sandor if his mouth does NOT twitch? What if the healing powers of the Elder Brother have had an effect? And how is she going to see the twitching if he has woolen wraps over the lower half of his face (these apparently go with the vow of silence)?

His hair? Why that's the easiest thing to hide or change in the world. Sansa and Arya both changed their hair and it worked - people who "knew" them, did not know them.

His voice? i did mention that he had taken a vow of silence. And that Sansa has already mistaken another person's voice for his.

You're no shipper? Fine. But how does that prove Sansa's memory is infallible? How does quibbling over the reasons for her fallible memory prove that her memory is not fallible?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The main issue chillypolly is that you base this theory on maybe and could be and what if, and very very little of it is rooted in any actual text from the books. Which all adds up to an extremely poor low quality and extremely unlikely theory.

p.s what part of I don't have my books translated over to you as I can't be arsed to look up the quote?

[ChillyPolly]

The main issue chillypolly is that you base this theory on maybe and could be and what if, and very very little of it is rooted in any actual text from the books. Which all adds up to an extremely poor low quality and extremely unlikely theory.

p.s what part of I don't have my books translated over to you as I can't be arsed to look up the quote?

Well, if you are saying that this indeed a "theory", and not secret spoilers my private investigator obtained by rifling GRRM's secret files while he slept, then you are correct. As for your claim that I don't use "actual text", I don't get it at all. The theory incorporates a huge number of references to the books, though few of them are direct quotes.

If your complaint is that I paraphrase, rather than providing extensive verbatim quotations, then that can be remedied, especially if you tell me which parts you dispute. I don't see why it should be necessary, though. Everyone here pretty much knows (for instance) where to find Sansa's last 2 chapters with Sandor, and can readily confirm for themselves that her reluctance to look at him remains an issue between them right to the end. Or is there some other point you dispute that you wish me to provide a direct quotation for?

I don't understand your p.s. at all. Perhaps something got garbled there.