Sansa, Her Quirky Perception & Memory, & the new "Hound"

[ChillyPolly]

The last time she saw him it was clearly stated that she closed her eyes because she thought he was about to kiss her. Sandor was mistaken in thinking it was because she "couldn't bear to look", he's pretty over-sensitive about that.

Over-sensitive or not, he was not mistaken in any relevant way. She did not want the kiss, and closing her eyes was the equivalent of wincing in horror. Here's the relevant text:

"He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he was going to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over."

Sandor was right. She did not want the kiss (wanting the kiss to be OVER is not the same thing); and she did not want to see his face while he was kissing her. So he goes into a rage and puts a knife to her throat. And here's her reaction to THAT:

"Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. PLEASE DON'T KILL ME, she wanted to scream, PLEASE DON'T. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered."

What she finally remembered was a song to sing. Note that she almost closes her eyes again, and it means the same thing in both cases: an attempt to block out something that frightens her.

Obviously, by this latter point, she would prefer the kiss. And the kiss is what she chose to remember. That does not mean she wanted the kiss. The text directly tells us otherwise.

Sansa also didn't replace the dagger memory with the unkiss, she remembers both but thinks more often of the kiss.

I don't know what this is based on. She never thinks back on the dagger, as far as I know. If you're referring to her "kissed me and threatened to kill me" memory, that false memory seems to be a replacement for "put a dagger to my throat and threatened to kill me", which is what actually happened. He put the knife to her throat and told her to "Sing for your little life".

So she remembers the verbal threat, but the actual knife to her throat is replaced by a kiss. Note that this is not the first time he has verbally threatened her life; but the knife to her throat is obviously even more scary.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well, if you are saying that this indeed a "theory", and not secret spoilers my private investigator obtained by rifling GRRM's secret files while he slept, then you are correct. As for your claim that I don't use "actual text", I don't get it at all. The theory incorporates a huge number of references to the books, though few of them are direct quotes.

If your complaint is that I paraphrase, rather than providing extensive verbatim quotations, then that can be remedied, especially if you tell me which parts you dispute. I don't see why it should be necessary, though. Everyone here pretty much knows (for instance) where to find Sansa's last 2 chapters with Sandor, and can readily confirm for themselves that her reluctance to look at him remains an issue between them right to the end. Or is there some other point you dispute that you wish me to provide a direct quotation for?

I don't understand your p.s. at all. Perhaps something got garbled there.

I have already given a pretty thorough debunking of your theory, I have also already told you I dispute pretty much every single thing you have written, not because it does not agree with my own theories, but because it in no way fits with the story development, actual human nature or anything else. your ideas are like huge leaps from unconnected points which in no way make any narrative sense. It's like you took characters names threw them in a bag and shook it before pulling out names and applying random ideas onto them.

My P.S refers to you saying,

I'm not interested in what the Wiki says. If you cannot be bothered to check the books I cite, what can I do?

Which was your response to me telling you I do not currently have my books in order to check the text.

Not having them in my possession does not equate to can not be bothered to check them, but then, such huge leaps of understanding of the written words is hardly something that should shock me, given your "theories".

[ChillyPolly]

I have also already told you I dispute pretty much every single thing you have written, [...]

Well then, perhaps I need to edit to add footnotes with detailed quotes backing up every statement, since you dispute them all. I will start to do so.

My P.S refers to you saying,

Which was your response to me telling you I do not currently have my books in order to check the text.

May I make a suggestion? We have all the time in the world to have this discussion at a later date, after you have time to check the references. In the meantime, telling me you dispute absolutely everything I say is not particularly conducive to discussion.

[Harry the Hair]

Just a random thought; we know that LF believes that he slept with Cat when in reality, that never happened, could GRRM be drawing a parallel between Sansa and LF with the made up kiss?

If that is the case then could it be that Sandor will mean the same thing to Sansa as Cat did for Baelish. Only in this case the roles would be reversed; in this version of events the person that believes the fantasy is the one that is too highborn for the object of their fantasy.

[ChillyPolly]

Just a random thought; we know that LF believes that he slept with Cat when in reality, that never happened, could GRRM be drawing a parallel between Sansa and LF with the made up kiss?

If that is the case then could it be that Sandor will mean the same thing to Sansa as Cat did for Baelish. Only in this case the roles would be reversed; in this version of events the person that believes the fantasy is the one that is too highborn for the object of their fantasy.

It's a thought.

But it is also possible that when GRRM seeks to establish the unreliable memories of his characters, he is trying to establish a general rule, not saying anything in particular about specific characters. It's like with Arya's mistake with the "lion's paw" thing. GRRM, in an SSM, said that this was intentional, and that the point was to establish that his the memories of his "characters" (plural) were not infallible. Except he (ironically) mis-remembered the person who made the mistake as Sansa (Sansa always remembers Lion's Tooth correctly, though she does make the Unkiss error). He said this will be a setup for a more important lapse of memory later on (he did not say this would involve Sansa).

What I take from this is that there may be other characters besides Sansa with unreliable memories. Some of the things that our POV know, or think they remember, or narrate in their POV chapters, MIGHT NOT BE TRUE. I cannot help suspecting, among others, Dany and her memories of lemon trees in Braavos, memories that we are directly told are strongly influenced (and perhaps altered?) by Viserys' stories. Then there's Tyrion. Have we really been told the whole story about the Tysha incident?

[Dya of Oldstones]

Just a random thought; we know that LF believes that he slept with Cat when in reality, that never happened, could GRRM be drawing a parallel between Sansa and LF with the made up kiss?

If that is the case then could it be that Sandor will mean the same thing to Sansa as Cat did for Baelish. Only in this case the roles would be reversed; in this version of events the person that believes the fantasy is the one that is too highborn for the object of their fantasy.

I always thought LF outright lied about sleeping with Cat, and knows damn well that never happened. He's also spiteful enough to lie about something like that, regardless of what the truth is.

ETA: Just caught the second paragraph and don't think that applies to Sansa and Sandor at all...Cat never gave LF a second thought, but Sandor and Sansa think about each other all the time in their arcs. I don't think Sansa has developed enough yet to understand it as attraction either, but most likely will sometime in the future.

[ChillyPolly]

I always thought LF outright lied about sleeping with Cat, and knows damn well that never happened. He's also spiteful enough to lie about something like that, regardless of what the truth is.

I always thought so too. But I cannot dismiss the other possibility, now that it has been raised ... considering how drunk he was at the time, and other details.

[Minuteman]

I always thought so too. But I cannot dismiss the other possibility, now that it has been raised ... considering how drunk he was at the time, and other details.

During one of Cate's POVs didn't she ponder on always doing her duty including giving her virginity to Ned who left her the day after to go to war and also left Rob in her womb? Cat herself seems to discount the possibility that she ever slept with someone other than Ned. I seem to recall this was the same chapter that Cat realized that her father regretted forcing Lyssa to have an abortion which is why he kept muttering "tansy". I don't think Cat ever put together who Lyssa's lover was as it didn't seem relevant to her.

[Harry the Hair]

I got the vibe that LF actually believes that he took Cat's virginity. Didn't Lysa say that he called out Cat's name when she went to sleep with him for the first time? It sure sounds like he refuses to believe that during that specific night he had sex with Lysa and not Cat.

[ChillyPolly]

During one of Cate's POVs didn't she ponder on always doing her duty including giving her virginity to Ned who left her the day after to go to war and also left Rob in her womb? Cat herself seems to discount the possibility that she ever slept with someone other than Ned.

Very true. However, you have lost track of the discussion. We were discussing the distinction between deliberate lies on the one hand, and false memories arising in the context of a drunken blackout on the other, causing LF to genuinely believe and "remember" something that never actually happened. No-one ever suggested Cat actually slept with Littlefinger.

[ChillyPolly]

I updated the original post in light of the newly released sample chapter.