The Five Forts

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Off topic, but has anyone noticed that the colour of the hidden sea is different compared to the other seas? (except the bleeding sea)

It's blue. No?

Bleeding Sea is red. Sea of Sighs is pinkish (dunno why)

[Nolan Clegane]

I don't know what all the confusion is about. LML theory rings as close to accurate as we can see. Yes there are 3 candidates for builders of the Five Forts but the Pearl Emperor was part of the GEotD, so immediately that leaves us with 2 candidates. And the Valyrians and the Valyrian Freehold was non-existent during the the Long Night and the Five Forts pre-date the LN, so we can automatically ascertain that it was not the Valyrian civilization that built the Five Forts... This leave us with only one civilization as an option, the GEotD.

Now, this does not mean the "ancestors" of Valyria did not build the Five Forts. I think this is what LML is saying bit Modesty and maybe some others aren't picking up on. Valyria and its people did not build the Five Forts, however, the Five Forts can be of a similar design structure to Valyrian architecture if in fact their ancestors constructed the Forts. Which I belive is very possible. This is something I gather from the text, that the GEotD is and was a very diverse culture, probably the beginnings to many and/or all of the cultures we see in planetos. Why couldn't the Valyrians ancestry link back to this great civilization.

[Nolan Clegane]

Also wanted to say, this was a great thread. Lots of great theories and insight to take in.

I did want to add, I don't see why anyone would not take the GEotD history seriously or at least value some of what the WoIaF tells us in regard to this part of Planetos. Yes, that history is very old and very ancient, and we have to acknowledge the histories of the far east with caution, but we still must take it in, digest it, and put the puzzle pieces together as appropriate. I believe many of the legends such as AA, Bloodstone Emperor, Long Night, the Last Hero tend to take on more weight than they should but legends and "stories" come from somewhere, so they too must be considered.

[Nolan Clegane]

double post

[Nolan Clegane]

In other words... Not just "Blue Curtains."

[LmL]

It does seem to me like the entire point of all this Great Empire / ancient fused stone stuff is that they were the ancestors to Valyria. To me, it seems pretty clear that's what George is implying. I mean, I love all the backstory for its own sake, but the main point is always to inform us about the characters in the story. What I believe George is doing by feeding us more information about Azor Ahai and the origins of dragon magic is to give us an idea of what it will mean for Dany to fully embrace her dragon nature; what it will mean for Jon to take up the mantle of Azor Ahai in some way. Quaithe and now Marwyn are pulling Dany's strings - but to what end? What is the nature of dragon magic? Should we think about it as being just as deadly as Other magic? What are these destinies people are trying to steer our heroes towards? Because the past and future relate, and in particular, we are still trying to deal with the problems created by the events of the Long Night. The entire Planet is STILL at the mercy of those events which took place 10,000 years ago or whatever, so learning about those events seems important - and wouldn't you know it, George has just fed us a ton of information about that very thing. Anyone who wants to understand as much as they can about the work should be gobbling it up.

[SolomonBlack]

The Sea of Sighs is most likely pinkish due to the lava from the Doom.

Hidden sea must be blue because it must be a very deep sea. I thought it was actually connected to the sunset sea

You're right the Hidden Sea by Carcosa is a much deeper blue then any of the other lakes, curious. It being really deep is an interesting idea and plausible but impossible to confirm anything further.

It can't be the Sunset Sea though unless said sea covers like 3/4ths of Planetos though, the world map does not wrap east to west tempting though that notion is.

Unless Planetos is much much much smaller then Earth or the Wall is much longer then claimed.

It does seem to me like the entire point of all this Great Empire / ancient fused stone stuff is that they were the ancestors to Valyria. To me, it seems pretty clear that's what George is implying. I mean, I love all the backstory for its own sake, but the main point is always to inform us about the characters in the story. What I believe George is doing by feeding us more information about Azor Ahai and the origins of dragon magic is to give us an idea of what it will mean for Dany to fully embrace her dragon nature; what it will mean for Jon to take up the mantle of Azor Ahai in some way. Quaithe and now Marwyn are pulling Dany's strings - but to what end? What is the nature of dragon magic? Should we think about it as being just as deadly as Other magic? What are these destinies people are trying to steer our heroes towards? Because the past and future relate, and in particular, we are still trying to deal with the problems created by the events of the Long Night. The entire Planet is STILL at the mercy of those events which took place 10,000 years ago or whatever, so learning about those events seems important - and wouldn't you know it, George has just fed us a ton of information about that very thing. Anyone who wants to understand as much as they can about the work should be gobbling it up.

The Long Night Azor Ahai, the Prince(ss) That Was Promised, and how this relates to Westeros the Last Hero and the Others is the slender red thread that holds this together. There IS a vague thematic conncetion between East and West in the Long Night in need of explanation, unless this Azor Ahai business is some massive fake out waiting to happen.

The problem is that this is not a puzzle we can solve, we don't even know how many pieces there are much less what the picture is. What I said above... that's the theory. Done. Nothing more is supportable as yet. It might come to no more then a thematic echo and we never find out about Azor Ahai original type, that's possible perhaps even likely given the distances and time involved who's supposed to tell us unless it comes out in Fire and Blood some day? We can make stabs a thing from the East but there are no conclusions, and grand sweeping theories always seem to involve putting together multiple conclusions together like the pillars supporting the roof of a Greek temple.

Five Forts? There's some big freaking mysterous "forts" at the edge of the known world.. and that's it.

Them being equivalent to say the Wall as some have theorized is tempting because of the symmetry I mentioned above... but not readily true. It just provides a tidy explanation for something vaguely similar. I can just as easily create a tale where they have nothing to do with the Wall or the Others because they are in the wrong direction.

Like say they were really defending not ancient Yi Ti but what is now the Shyrkes and Cannibal Wastes (you ever see a defensive line arc back from its enemy from the Deep Ones in Asshai. Which side of that would then be the GEotD or is it actually both garbled? How can they be that and connected to the Wall? They can't, but it fits everything we know just as well because we know so little here that inserting anything is easy. Its a vaguely interesting speculation that I can spin an "epic" tale from because "obviously" the lands around K'Dath were nuked long ago while Asshai and the Shadow got the same and that all caused the Long Night and killed the Deep Ones in the cold while the survivors of the Forters founded Valyria. I won the Game, I'm so smart!

Course I actually stole that tale from Ancient Aliens take on vimanas and Mohenjo-daro.

[LmL]

It amuses me to no end to watch you continue to make baseless assertions as if they were facts, such as:

The problem is that this is not a puzzle we can solve,

We can make stabs a thing from the East but there are no conclusions,

Five Forts? There's some big freaking mysterous "forts" at the edge of the known world.. and that's it.

The problem here is that you don't know any of this. These are assumptions you have made based on your own worldview, and nothing more. When you assert them as facts, it just sounds silly.

[SolomonBlack]

It amuses me to no end to watch you continue to make baseless assertions as if they were facts, such as:

The problem here is that you don't know any of this. These are assumptions you have made based on your own worldview, and nothing more. When you assert them as facts, it just sounds silly.

And Da Vinci left secret symbols in his art like a shoulder's forming an M in the last supper and one long hair dude being clearly a girl. Which clearly proves Jesus married Mary Magdalene and moved to France.

Also.... Aliens. Somehow.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Honestly, people. Martin never intended the World of Ice and Fire when he began the series. If something isn't in the main series, it isn't important to the plot. Things in the World Book that add meat to the main plot are of significance. Things that deal with lands we will never see, or things like the Five Forts at the edge of the World are not going to have an impact on the outcome of the plot. That much is clear.

[LmL]

Honestly, people. Martin never intended the World of Ice and Fire when he began the series. If something isn't in the main series, it isn't important to the plot. Things in the World Book that add meat to the main plot are of significance. Things that deal with lands we will never see, or things like the Five Forts at the edge of the World are not going to have an impact on the outcome of the plot. That much is clear.

Can you really not see that learning about ancient dragonlords who were the ancestors of Valyria might be a "Things in the World Book that add meat to the main plot"?

I mean that's exactly how I would characterize this whole inquiry into the ancient dragonlords and the GEotD. We are adding meat to the plot.. it's just more backstory. But of course backstory is relevant to the main plot. I don't get the arbitrary declinations between which info pertains to the plot and which does not.

Azor Ahai and dragon magic in general is so strongly tied to Asshai that I think anything we can learn about Asshai is bound to be at least somewhat relevant. Marwyn and Quiathe, two glass candles users who are seeking to guide Daenerys, both learned most if not all of their magical knowledge from Asshai. Melisandre is right in the thick of things at the Wall, and she too is from Asshai, as is her magical knowledge. I just don't understand how anyone can say that all the stuff from the far east is irrelevant to the main plot just because nobody is physically going there. Asshai is all over this story, and Asshai people are intimately intertwined with our main characters.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Honestly, people. Martin never intended the World of Ice and Fire when he began the series. If something isn't in the main series, it isn't important to the plot. Things in the World Book that add meat to the main plot are of significance. Things that deal with lands we will never see, or things like the Five Forts at the edge of the World are not going to have an impact on the outcome of the plot. That much is clear.

I doubt he imagined releasing a coffee book table of this specific content, but I recently listened to the Radio Westeros episode concerning LonCon, with an interview with Elio and Linda, and they remarked on how much of the seemingly obscure/inconsequential worldbuilding GRRM had already done when they began to work with him on the Wikki and such several years ago.

So unless you have SSM's denying the importance of specific things in the Worldbook, I wouldn't assume that any piece is utterly unimportant and unworthy of analysis.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Can you really not see that learning about ancient dragonlords who were the ancestors of Valyria might be a "Things in the World Book that add meat to the main plot"?

I mean that's exactly how I would characterize this whole inquiry into the ancient dragonlords and the GEotD. We are adding meat to the plot.. it's just more backstory. But of course backstory is relevant to the main plot. I don't get the arbitrary declinations between which info pertains to the plot and which does not.

Azor Ahai and dragon magic in general is so strongly tied to Asshai that I think anything we can learn about Asshai is bound to be at least somewhat relevant. Marwyn and Quiathe, two glass candles users who are seeking to guide Daenerys, both learned most if not all of their magical knowledge from Asshai. Melisandre is right in the thick of things at the Wall, and she too is from Asshai, as is her magical knowledge. I just don't understand how anyone can say that all the stuff from the far east is irrelevant to the main plot just because nobody is physically going there. Asshai is all over this story, and Asshai people are intimately intertwined with our main characters.

Look, I've kept silent about your theories on the so called GEOTD for a long time. I get it that you are passionate about it, but quite honestly, I totally disagree with it. The so called Great Empire of the Dawn was not some world dominating Super civilization that is at the root of everyting that faces humanity today. The "Great Empire of the Dawn" was simply a localized Yi-ti origin myth, intended to portray Yi-Ti as the oldest of all nations. It is Yi-ti centric, and only relevant to Yi-ti's history.

It was not a highly advanced magical empire. It was probably just a bunch of primitives who mastered agriculture and built the first mud cities in ancient Yi-ti 12000 years ago. At the same time that Old Ghis did so around Slavers Bay, and that the Fisher Queens did so around the Silver Sea. And at this time, ancient Asshaii was probably already a soreceros city of unimaginable power, breeding dragons from firewyrms and wyverns to fight the Deep Ones or whatever enemies they had.

Asshaii was not part of this so called GEOTD. The GEOTD was not that great at all, in fact, given that it exists only in the history of Yi-Ti, to fuel their own desire to be better and older than Old Ghis, Old Sarnor and Old Asshaii.

I think your house of cards built on the Great Empire of the Dawn has an illusory foundation. A foundation that is not what you think it is.

[Blow My Horn]

So much arguing about "probably". Look at us George, look at what you make us give!!

[LmL]

Look, I've kept silent about your theories on the so called GEOTD for a long time. I get it that you are passionate about it, but quite honestly, I totally disagree with it. The so called Great Empire of the Dawn was not some world dominating Super civilization that is at the root of everyting that faces humanity today. The "Great Empire of the Dawn" was simply a localized Yi-ti origin myth, intended to portray Yi-Ti as the oldest of all nations. It is Yi-ti centric, and only relevant to Yi-ti's history.

It was not a highly advanced magical empire. It was probably just a bunch of primitives who mastered agriculture and built the first mud cities in ancient Yi-ti 12000 years ago. At the same time that Old Ghis did so around Slavers Bay, and that the Fisher Queens did so around the Silver Sea. And at this time, ancient Asshaii was probably already a soreceros city of unimaginable power, breeding dragons from firewyrms and wyverns to fight the Deep Ones or whatever enemies they had.

Asshaii was not part of this so called GEOTD. The GEOTD was not that great at all, in fact, given that it exists only in the history of Yi-Ti, to fuel their own desire to be better and older than Old Ghis, Old Sarnor and Old Asshaii.

I think your house of cards built on the Great Empire of the Dawn has an illusory foundation. A foundation that is not what you think it is.

I respect that you disagree with my theories. I've read some of your stuff and been impressed, and I respect your opinions. Might I ask, what are you basing your conclusions on that you stated above about the GEotD?

Do you see the match between the four gemstones of the gemstone-eyed kingly ghosts with Valyrian hair and swords of pale fire and the gemstones of the GEotD as coincidence then?

[LmL]

I might add that if you don't buy the GEotD being the ancient Asshai race, then fine, forget that phrase. Let's just talk about Ancient Asshai and the Five Forts. The purpose of the existence of the Forts and the Battle Isle fortress, which is also fused black stone, is to tell us that dragonlords existed prior to Valyria. It doesn't matter if they were called the Great Empire of the Dawn or some name we can't pronounce, or just "Asshai." But what we are really talking about here is the dragonlords who went before the Valyrians, before the Long Night fell. That's the part which is relevant to the story.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I respect that you disagree with my theories. Might I ask, what are you basing your conclusions on that you stated above about the GEotD?

Do you see the match between the four gemstones of the gemstone-eyed kingly ghosts with Valyrian hair and swords of pale fire and the gemstones of the GEotD as coincidence then?

LOL. Complete and utter coincidence yes.

Note the passage in the World Book where Yi-Ti self importantly try to portray themselves as older than the Ghiscari and Sarnori, saying that mankind first built cities in their lands, in the Age of the Great Empire of the Dawn? It is only the people of Yi-Ti that claim this. If you look at the more likely scenario, it is that the Great Empire and Old Ghis were contemporaries. And in fact, the stories of God Emperors that ruled for 1000 years mirrors almost exactly the false legends of Ancient Egypt, about the Dynasties that preceded the pyramid age by supposedly tens of thousands of years.

Asshaii is quite clearly a unique civilization that is totally different from the cities of ancient Yi-Ti. Most likely, the Asshaii are the great ancient civilization, and they built the 5 Forts to protect the children of the "Great Empire of the Dawn" in Yi-Ti, just like they built other fused stone buildings around the World.

What they were is mysterious and unknown. But they weren't this Great Empire of the Dawn that Yi-Ti thinks ruled the world 10000 years ago.

[LmL]

I posted again while you were typing right above your last response. :)

[LmL]

So who were those pale fire sword holding gemstone eyed ghosts in your opinion?

[Free Northman Reborn]

I posted again while you were typing right above your last response. :)

Yes, I have always stated that the ancient Asshaii first designed and bred dragons, and were masters of magic of unparralled power. Note that the city of Asshaii is of an unimaginable scale - apparently large enough to encompass Volantis, Qarth and King's Landing with room to spare, if I recall.

I am not sure that they were human. And I am quite sure that the inhabitants of Asshaii today are not their descendents, but migrants who later settled the already abandoned city, and have been trying to master their mysterious magics ever since then.

I think what we had there was some kind of magic-technology mix. Magical bio-technology that bred all the hybrid races that came to populate the world in later ages.