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Stannis Pink Letter Confirmed?


Griffin's Roost

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Yes, the TWoW Theon chapter makes a very strong case for that.

At the very least, GRRM wants us to consider that Stannis might have influenced the letter.

Why?
- Comments to Massey - even if you hear rumours of my death.
- Stannis's capture of ravens for Winterfell from Karstark traitors. ie. he had ravens.

What I think happened is this:
Stannis did not write the pink letter, Ramsay did.
But Ramsay wrote it based of false information. Stannis faked his death by sending a raven pretending to be from the Karstarks declaring that Stannis was defeated.
As for Mance, I don't know how much of an ally he actually is. Stannis may be fine with it if Mance never made it out of Winterfell. But assuming for some reason he does care - then the bit about flaying Mance and the spearwives remains a bit of a mystery. Hard to tell the truth of it.

As far as Stannis knows, Ramsay is coming to join the battle. He cannot send a false letter to Ramsay about the result of the battle beore the battle takes place.

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I don't think this confirms the Pink Letter being written by Stannis at all.

I think it confirms that Stannis will fake his death - which makes it more likely the Pink Letter was written by Ramsay.

I agree. I think Ramsey wrote, and Ramsey believes Stannis is dead, but he is wrong.

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Yes, the TWoW Theon chapter makes a very strong case for that.

As far as Stannis knows, Ramsay is coming to join the battle. He cannot send a false letter to Ramsay about the result of the battle beore the battle takes place.

I am not so sure about that at all.

Theon said Ramsay was Stannis's most dangerous opponent. He did not say he was coming out to fight outside the Walls. If Ramsay came out, who would be left to defend Winterfell? The Boltons sent out the Freys and Manderlys to fight Stannis, that is all. There was no mention of any force going out under Bolton banners and as I alreday pointed out, the "sneaking in to Stannis's camp" proposal makes no sense because there is noone who would hide him who is not caught (Karstarks).

IMO Theon simply meant in the context of a fight for control of Winterfell, which would mean fighting whoever is inside Winterfell eventually as well, not just the forces that come out.

Stannis could feel pretty safe assuming the Bolton forces were kept back to defend the castle under Ramsay.

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It's not Stannis because:



a. The motive of getting Jon Stark in WF at this point is flawed. Winterfell is far from Castle Black; it took Tyrion and Jon a month to get there in AGOT in summer weather. It would likely take Jon two months in bad winter weather to reach Winterfell with an army. Stannis isn't going to encourage Jon to send an army down to Winterfell, leaving the Wall barely defended. There would likely be a sizable amount of casualties as well during the march. Any problems Stannis would have had with getting the Dustins, Manderlys, Umbers, Karstarks, etc. to pledge him allegiance would be solved, for better or worse, by the time Jon ever arrived.



b. The Tycho Nestoris conundrum. Stannis sends Tycho, Jeyne, and Justin Massey up to the Wall at the end of Theon's TWOW sample chapter. If Stannis authored the PL, and Jon does lead some force against Winterfell, they're likely to encounter each other along the Kingsroad in about a month. Jon intersecting with Tycho breeds problems. Jon will claim Stannis is dead, likely freezing Stannis' loan. This also endangers Jon's loan, as Jon leading an army south against threats that historically the NW does not get involved in is... troubling. With regards to Stannis' loan, yes, Justin Massey was tasked with carrying on the fight in Stannis' name should he hear that Stannis has fallen, but I don't see Tycho going back to Braavos immediately and just handing that money over to Ser Justin Massey for a cause that is already lost ("He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle") before the money ever starts flowing. That loan is more important than Stannis getting a Stark in Winterfell.


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I am not so sure about that at all.

Theon said Ramsay was Stannis's most dangerous opponent. He did not say he was coming out to fight outside the Walls. If Ramsay came out, who would be left to defend Winterfell? The Boltons sent out the Freys and Manderlys to fight Stannis, that is all. There was no mention of any force going out under Bolton banners and as I alreday pointed out, the "sneaking in to Stannis's camp" proposal makes no sense because there is noone who would hide him who is not caught (Karstarks).

IMO Theon simply meant in the context of a fight for control of Winterfell, which would mean fighting whoever is inside Winterfell eventually as well, not just the forces that come out.

Stannis could feel pretty safe assuming the Bolton forces were kept back to defend the castle under Ramsay.

I know it is an obvious question, if Ramsey wrote the PL, how did he know Jayne went to the wall. For Theon, I don't think Theon went to the wall, but stayed with Stannis.
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I know it is an obvious question, if Ramsey wrote the PL, how did he know Jayne went to the wall. For Theon, I don't think Theon went to the wall, but stayed with Stannis.

If Ramsay wrote the pink letter, he wrote it based on false information from Stannis, who faked his death by sending a captured Karstark raven to Winterfell.

So the information from Stannis would very possibly have included some sort of information aimed at luring Ramsay out of Winterfell and towards the Wall, where the wildling army would gladly confront him (While Stannis attacked from behind and/or claimed Winterfell).

If Stannis wanted to lure Ramsay away from Winterfell and towards the Wall, what better way to do that than baiting him with hinted info about fArya, who Ramsay desperately needs in order to maintain his power in the North?

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At OP no way does that prove that Stannis wrote the Pink Letter. I think Ramsay wrote it, but getting incorrect info. The key here is the ravens trained to fly to WF. Stannis uncovers the plot of the Karstarks, but Ramsay and Roose dont know that. Roose has the feeling that the Manderley are not loyal to him and therefore sends them out. The key to Stannis getting into WF are the Karstarks as Roose/Ramsay seeing the Karstarks, 'Freys' and some Maderleys will make him think that his plan worked. Plus Ramsay and Roose dont know exactly what Stannis looks like, they may have heard of what he looks like but not seen him, therefore they could easily fool them with Lightbringer, man balding with a beard and with a crown. Also I dont think Stannis knows Mance is alive therefore Ramsay may have caught them, wants his Reek back, is told Stannis is dead, and would insult Jon in the letter. My opinion is Ramsay=Pink Letter


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You clearly have no idea how resistance actually works. Even Theon, in chains, with his skin and dick being peeled off was resisting, simply by refusing to accept submission. In the end, Ramsay's torture seemed to work but only on the surface. Theon was buried but not dead, and his resistance was on low simmer.

The Northerners are resisting simply by refusing to acknowledge Bolton rule. It is winter, their supplies and men are depleted, they don't know who to trust, so that makes it a quiet kind of resistance for the moment, mostly. Their main goal for now is simply surviving to fight later. But simple refusal to accept anyone other than Starks while regrouping IS, in fact, resistance. And in the long run it would, regardless of Stannis, have come back to bite the Boltons.

That does nothing to make the claim that said resistance has "absolutely nothing to do with Stannis" any less false. Before his arrival, all these resistance groups were 1) working on their own, 2) working in secret or 3) not working at all. Because of Stannis they are openly united against Roose in a force capable of ousting him, which they weren't, prior.

I don't know how to state it more clearly. Stannis is not the cause they are fighting for, regardless of whether or not they join him.

Go read what I've actually written. I've never claimed he was the cause they were fighting for, but that he's the reason these people are out and about fighting (which is true) and that he's turned them into a force capable of overthrowing Roose (also true). Thus, claiming that said resistance has nothing to do with him is ridiculous.

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At OP no way does that prove that Stannis wrote the Pink Letter. I think Ramsay wrote it, but getting incorrect info. The key here is the ravens trained to fly to WF. Stannis uncovers the plot of the Karstarks, but Ramsay and Roose dont know that. Roose has the feeling that the Manderley are not loyal to him and therefore sends them out. The key to Stannis getting into WF are the Karstarks as Roose/Ramsay seeing the Karstarks, 'Freys' and some Maderleys will make him think that his plan worked. Plus Ramsay and Roose dont know exactly what Stannis looks like, they may have heard of what he looks like but not seen him, therefore they could easily fool them with Lightbringer, man balding with a beard and with a crown. Also I dont think Stannis knows Mance is alive therefore Ramsay may have caught them, wants his Reek back, is told Stannis is dead, and would insult Jon in the letter. My opinion is Ramsay=Pink Letter

Yep. At the very least someone inside Winterfell wrote it.

There are some important inconsistencies in the way the letter looked and was written though that need some consideration and do raise legitimate doubts that it was Ramsay. I am not talking handwriting (how can we possibly assess differences in handwriting? Where did people get that from?), but rather the inconsistency between the claim that Mance was flayed and the fact that the letter was not written on human skin. From that, if Ramsay WAS the author, we can assume he is bluffing. There is simply no way that if he had a piece of Mance's skin available he would not have used it.

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I think Stannis wrote it, but I'm beginning to consider that someone edited it as it's been suggested in the boards in a very convincingly way. Anyway, if Ramsay wrote it, why didn't he sealed it? He's supposed to be Lord of Winterfell, he's got to have a WF seal. I get he uses pink instead of white or gray, I don't know the color of Stark wax. But as a Lord he must have a seal. No Daddy's seal either. Even Stannis might have fake some kind of seal. That bastard letter is weird even for Ramsay standards. Besides, if we take Ramsay out of the equation the letter is not so plain and creepy, it gains in intrigue and depth.

ETA: By the way, he's also Lord of the Hornwood. He must know he needs a seal after that many Lordships.

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I think Stannis wrote it, but I'm beginning to consider that someone edited it as it's been suggested in the boards in a very convincingly way. Anyway, if Ramsay wrote it, why didn't he sealed it? He's supposed to be Lord of Winterfell, he's got to have a WF seal. I get he uses pink instead of white or gray, I don't know the color of Stark wax. But as a Lord he must have a seal. No Daddy's seal either. Even Stannis might have fake some kind of seal. That bastard letter is weird even for Ramsay standards. Besides, if we take Ramsay out of the equation the letter is not so plain and creepy, it gains in intrigue and depth.

I don't think it was Stannis at all. He had no ravens for the Wall. He had ravens for Winterfell. So how would he send a letter to the Wall, with Bolton wax, without first having taken Winterfell, still defended by Boltons? No...Stannis is the option that makes the least sense.

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I'm liking the ideas about Stannis faking his death, but I'm more inclined to think that Mance wrote the Pink Letter than Ramsey. Whoever wrote the letter calls Jon 'Bastard' throughout the letter, which if the letter was written by Mance could make it an attempt to manipulate Jon into coming to Winterfell himself, which makes sense based on the story Jon told Mance when he was trying to convince Mance that he wanted to join the wildlings. I don't necessarily think it's the horn of Joramun that's in the crypts, but Mance clearly seems interested in them and the whole 'Stark in Winterfell' issue seems to have some significance, so it makes sense to me that Mance would want to get Jon to Winterfell for that.



It makes sense that Mance would want his son and Val with him too, and having Selyse and Shireen would give Mance a way of negotiating with Stannis as well. He knows that Theon and Jeyne probably couldn't have reached Castle Black by that point, though asking that Melisandre go to Winterfell too would seem to complicate this theory. Thoughts?


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I don't think it was Stannis at all. He had no ravens for the Wall. He had ravens for Winterfell. So how would he send a letter to the Wall, with Bolton wax, without first having taken Winterfell, still defended by Boltons? No...Stannis is the option that makes the least sense.

Stannis took Deepwood Motte remember? And there was a Bolton letter sent to Asha in Deepwood Motte. He might have used the same wax in that letter but it should suffice only to make a smear of wax and without any Bolton seal.

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Stannis took Deepwood Motte remember? And there was a Bolton letter sent to Asha in Deepwood Motte. He might have used the same wax in that letter but it should suffice only to make a smear of wax and without any Bolton seal.

He has no ravens trained for the Wall. Only ones destined for Winterfell. If he sent any messages, Winterfell was the destination.

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He has no ravens trained for the Wall. Only ones destined for Winterfell. If he sent any messages, Winterfell was the destination.

He has two ravens that are trying tell something to him so much that it irritates him. That has to mean something.

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He has two ravens that are trying tell something to him so much that it irritates him. That has to mean something.

oh, I definitely agree with that, but I think it is a separate issue. The ravens are basically Bran talking. They said "tree" to support Asha's suggestion. She said he should behead Theon himself before the heart tree. Bran, via the ravens, strongly agreed.

Sure, if Bran warged them they could fly anywhere, but why would Bran take a message from "Ramsay" to cause chaos at the Wall?

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