Hippocras Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 What you are describing is ridiculously convoluted to pull off, even for LF, aside from lacking any sort of evidence supporting it. It would requite a LF plant at WF with access to the ravens. It would also require someone at CB with access to ravens. It's unworkable and beyond crackpot. The Ramsay-Stannis combination on other hand is a lot easily explained with textual evidence backing it up. Well we already know LF had a plant at Winterfell. How else did he sneak in Lysa's box in the first book? And plants at the Wall are even easier. Noone looks at the details of who ends up at the Wall and how very carefully. And no, it would not require any particular special access to ravens on either end - just opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Well we already know LF had a plant at Winterfell. How else did he sneak in Lysa's box in the first book? And plants at the Wall are even easier. Noone looks at the details of who ends up at the Wall and how very carefully. And no, it would not require any particular special access to ravens on either end - just opportunity. The plant most likely came with Robert's camp and left with him. It's not suggestive that there's someone permanently at WF on LF's pay. In any case, plants in itself are easy to place but the task required of them in this case is a 1000 times more complex than placing a simple box at someone's door. It most definitely would require some with access to ravens and the ability to send one as well...on both sides. Without that, certain bits of the letter are unexplainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The plant most likely came with Robert's camp and left with him. It's not suggestive that there's someone permanently at WF on LF's pay. In any case, plants in itself are easy to place but the task required of them in this case is a 1000 times more complex than placing a simple box at someone's door. It most definitely would require some with access to ravens and the ability to send one as well...on both sides. Without that, certain bits of the letter are unexplainable. We frankly have no idea whatsoever who LF's plant was, so no proof at all that whoever it was left with Robert. That is pure assumption. Sending a raven is very easy. All that is required is getting into the room long enough to tie a message to the foot. As for access to a raven at CB, I don't know why you insist this is necessary. They simply received a message. Anyone can receive a message, doesn't need to be a plant. However I have no doubt that LF DOES have a plant at the Wall and has for some time, because he was busy manipulating the finances of the entire Kingdom for years, and that includes the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 We frankly have no idea whatsoever who LF's plant was, so no proof at all that whoever it was left with Robert. That is pure assumption. Sending a raven is very easy. All that is required is getting into the room long enough to tie a message to the foot. As for access to a raven at CB, I don't know why you insist this is necessary. They simply received a message. Anyone can receive a message, doesn't need to be a plant. However I have no doubt that LF DOES have a plant at the Wall and has for some time, because he was busy manipulating the finances of the entire Kingdom for years, and that includes the Wall. I thought sending a raven was a lot more complicated than that? If sending one was that easy why have maesters at all doing that job? Actually, there's zero evidence of any plant at the wall. Even the evidence for there being one at WF is dodgy at best. It's necessary because the letter could not have been written by just one person at WF not with it's content. It doesn't explain how the 'plant' at WF knows about the wildling princess or the wildling prince. That's a blatant nod to Stannis. If this is just LF being LF then the letter requires a certain level of collaboration between people at CB and WF. It also requires intelligent people as plants not random nobodies planted as spies. There's basically zero evidence for LF and loads of it for Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I thought sending a raven was a lot more complicated than that? If sending one was that easy why have maesters at all doing that job? Actually, there's zero evidence of any plant at the wall. Even the evidence for there being one at WF is dodgy at best. It's necessary because the letter could not have been written by just one person at WF not with it's content. It doesn't explain how the 'plant' at WF knows about the wildling princess or the wildling prince. That's a blatant nod to Stannis. If this is just LF being LF then the letter requires a certain level of collaboration between people at CB and WF. It also requires intelligent people as plants not random nobodies planted as spies. There's basically zero evidence for LF and loads of it for Ramsay. TENDING the ravens is complicated. Sending a message with one is not. Look, don't misinterpret me here. I am not arguing LF is the ideal contender. But ALL of the possible authors are not ideal, each for their own reasons. There are big problems with every one of the theories. The Pink letter just doesn't make sense from the angle of ANY of them. With that in mind, LF is a contender. He just isn't the only contender. All it would take is a plant or two. Given his schemes, it isn't that hard to imagine. Sure, there is no evidence right now, but there never is with LF is there? We just have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Actually sending ravens is complicated. Each raven has just ONE destination (some older wiser ones may have two). The maesters keep count of the ravens. BUT I assume that Robert brought maesters and ravens with him, so there would be your LF spy. Also a Varys spy and a Tywin spy (or someone pretending to be all three) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pajamacowboy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I see the letter as being Mance on the fact he has the most to gain by it however I'm not ruling out anyone until I see it in the book. Unless it's hot pie and the pie that was promised is marching north with an army right now to take out the Boltons, Stannis, and Mance all at once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Actually sending ravens is complicated. Each raven has just ONE destination (some older wiser ones may have two). The maesters keep count of the ravens. BUT I assume that Robert brought maesters and ravens with him, so there would be your LF spy. Also a Varys spy and a Tywin spy (or someone pretending to be all three) They have one destination, yes. That doesn't make it complicated. They are kept in different cages according to destination. Maybe they use a bird tagging system also. The maesters don't know each raven by sight like pets. They just grab one from the right cage. Anyone can do that. It is only taking care of and training them that is complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 They have one destination, yes. That doesn't make it complicated. They are kept in different cages according to destination. Maybe they use a bird tagging system also. The maesters don't know each raven by sight like pets. They just grab one from the right cage. Anyone can do that. It is only taking care of and training them that is complicated. I think the maesters do more than that. They train the ravens to make certain sounds upon different stimulators. So, they can understand from which castle the raven comes. They have to have some kind of a universal raven zip code system. Otherwise, ravencraft would not be worthy of a chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think the maesters do more than that. They train the ravens to make certain sounds upon different stimulators. So, they can understand from which castle the raven comes. They have to have some kind of a universal raven zip code system. Otherwise, ravencraft would not be worthy of a chain. Don't remember reading anything about a sound code. I do remember reading about different cages. Where did that come from? I have already said - tending and training the ravens IS complicated, and needs a chain. I am not disputing that. But sending them if organized in cages is really not hard and I don't see why on earth they would MAKE it hard by using sound instead of basic sorting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Don't remember reading anything about a sound code. I do remember reading about different cages. Where did that come from? I have already said - tending and training the ravens IS complicated, and needs a chain. I am not disputing that. But sending them if organized in cages is really not hard and I don't see why on earth they would MAKE it hard by using sound instead of basic sorting. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens … but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health. There is this bit from TWOIAF but still, the cages cannot be the only factor to distinguish the ravens. Things can easily go wrong and important messages can be sent to other places that are not supposed to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens … but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health. There is this bit from TWOIAF but still, the cages cannot be the only factor to distinguish the ravens. Things can easily go wrong and important messages can be sent to other places that are not supposed to see them.yes, there is very probably a backup system that is harder to work with than sorting. I agree with you there. Sound is an interesting idea. But that would only come into play if the sorting has been disrupted IMO, leaving it rather easy to simply send a message under normal circumstances - though of course not easy to do much else with the ravens without maester skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbuehner Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well we already know LF had a plant at Winterfell. How else did he sneak in Lysa's box in the first book? And plants at the Wall are even easier. Noone looks at the details of who ends up at the Wall and how very carefully. And no, it would not require any particular special access to ravens on either end - just opportunity. The odds of anybody still being alive in WF since the start of the series seems remote. Unless theyve been in hiding ala the Chayle theory. Otherwise, WF was abandoned completely for a time before the Boltons showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroomshirt Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I believe GRRM has confirmed that the Theon chapter takes place before the Pink Letter is read by Jon. This has definitely been confirmed: http://grrm.livejournal.com/2011/12/28/ As a Christmas gift to all my loyal fans and readers, I've just replaced the (long published) sample chapters from A DANCE WITH DRAGONS on my website with an unpublished sample chapter from THE WINDS OF WINTER.Go ye to "Ice & Fire Sample" on my website and enjoy.(The chronology, as usual, is tricky. This chapter will be found eventually at the beginning of WINDS, but as you will be able to tell from context, it actually takes place before some of the chapters at the end of DANCE).Love it or hate it, please do NOT discuss it here. Any such posts will be deleted. There are plenty of great places on the net for such discussions, so take your thoughts, comments, and analysis to Westeros or the Tower of the Hand or the Podcast of Ice and Fire, or your favorite foreign language site. (FYI, there will be a different sample chapter from WINDS OF WINTER included at the end of the paperback edition of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS when that is published next July).Happy holidays, all. Keep reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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