R+L=J v.122

[markg171]

Saying the sky is blue because we live inside the eye of a blue-eyed giant named Macumber doesn't make it so.

You can believe whatever you want. But that belief shouldn't be paraded around as fact, when it has been disproven.

[BearQueen87]

You can believe whatever you want. But that belief shouldn't be paraded around as fact, when it has been disproven.

What was disproven? I was only gone 9 hours. Did someone definitively disprove RLJ or RL = Legit J

[JonSnow4President]

There's been plenty of convincing arguments. They just don't fit with R+L=J so they're dismissed or downright ignored while the same posters argue over some joke until the counter argument is lost in the posts and forgotten while never having actually been addressed. Which is exactly what your second point addresses. You don't want counter arguments in these threads so you tell people not to come into the threads or you ignore their arguments.

And yes, many of the ideas in these threads have been effectively countered. In the last thread alone, off the top of my head, the idea that Ned never calls Jon his son was disproven, and the idea that Ned considers Whent, Hightower, and Dayne to be shining examples of knighthood was disproven. So I can only imagine what counterarguments in the #112 threads that came before I ever joined this board have been washed away or ignored.

You mean like within the 3 posts after that, that BQ clarified that we mean doesn't think of Jon as his son internally? Yup, shattered our world. Keep at it.

[markg171]

What was disproven? I was only gone 9 hours. Did someone definitively disprove RLJ or RL = Legit J

Nothing was disproven. At this point, you can't definitely say who are Jon Snow's parents. But when certain points are been disproven, they should be disregarded.

[dornishlovers]

Hi, first time posting here! I do not know if this is to read too much between the lines, but in my re-reading of Got Jon tells Benjen that bastards grow faster than other children and earlier, when he's watching Joffrey, Jon says that Joffrey is taller than him and Robb, even though he is 12, while both off then are 14.

It could be a hint that Jon and Robb are legitimate children, since Joffrey is indeed a bastard?

Sorry for my English is not my mother language

“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”

(...) he crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay.

[BearQueen87]

Nothing was disproven. At this point, you can't definitely say who are Jon Snow's parents. But when certain points are been disproven, they should be disregarded.

Ok, but what certain points? Seriously, I was gone for 9 hours and I only briefly scanned the last thread and it was about lemons and how Comic Sans is apparently evil or something.

Hi, first time posting here! I do not know if this is to read too much between the lines, but in my re-reading of Got Jon tells Benjen that bastards grow faster than other children and earlier, when he's watching Joffrey, Jon says that Joffrey is taller than him and Robb, even though he is 12, while both off then are 14.

It could be a hint that Jon and Robb are legitimate children, since Joffrey is indeed a bastard?

Sorry for my English is not my mother language

Welcome to RLJ and the forums!!

I'm not sure if you're reading too much into it, however there is a line that should stick out at you later in Arya I when Jon says that bastards aren't allowed to hit princes, thus why he is not practicing with Joff. Joff, as it turns out, is the bastard. So...what does that make Jon? :)

Feel free to stop by and talk to us anytime!

[sj4iy]

There's been plenty of convincing arguments. They just don't fit with R+L=J so they're dismissed or downright ignored while the same posters argue over some joke until the counter argument is lost in the posts and forgotten while never having actually been addressed. Which is exactly what your second point addresses. You don't want counter arguments in these threads so you tell people not to come into the threads or you ignore their arguments.

And yes, many of the ideas in these threads have been effectively countered. In the last thread alone, off the top of my head, the idea that Ned never calls Jon his son was disproven, and the idea that Ned considers Whent, Hightower, and Dayne to be shining examples of knighthood was disproven. So I can only imagine what counterarguments in the #112 threads that came before I ever joined this board have been washed away or ignored.

Again, Bullshit.

I don't mind sensible and logical counter-arguments. Most people don't.

What I dislike is someone trolling this thread, continuously getting facts wrong, then stomping their foot in anger when someone calls them on it.

"You won't listen because you don't want to!" is such a petulant counter-argument. This theory isn't a fucking religion...I don't believe it on faith or because I want to. I believe it because the textual evidence overwhelmingly supports it. Come up with a better and more convincing argument, then others would listen. But god-of-the-gaps arguments, strawman arguments and pedantic nitpicking aren't constructive debate tactics...they are an attempt to make the text fit your theory, instead of having your theory come direct from the text.

So don't even pretend like you don't have an agenda in this thread...you do. You have done since the day you came in this particular thread. You haven't earnestly argued anything at all, so it's very difficult to take anything you say seriously.

[dornishlovers]

Ok, but what certain points? Seriously, I was gone for 9 hours and I only briefly scanned the last thread and it was about lemons and how Comic Sans is apparently evil or something.

Welcome to RLJ and the forums!!

I'm not sure if you're reading too much into it, however there is a line that should stick out at you later in Arya I when Jon says that bastards aren't allowed to hit princes, thus why he is not practicing with Joff. Joff, as it turns out, is the bastard. So...what does that make Jon? :)

Feel free to stop by and talk to us anytime!

Thank you!! :D :D :D

[markg171]

You mean like within the 3 posts after that, that BQ clarified that we mean doesn't think of Jon as his son internally? Yup, shattered our world. Keep at it.

Which is exactly my point. Don't say one thing, and then when that's disproven, change it around to fit without changing the reference guide. Keep everything consistent. You're tired of arguing the same things over and over again? Well you wouldn't have to, if things were updated instead of only presenting the same information again and again.

The idea that he never calls Jon his son is disproven. That's a fact. The idea that he never thinks of Jon as his son, is up to the reader to decide. It's not a fact though. It depends on a specific reading of one paragraph in the novel.

[sj4iy]

Hi, first time posting here! I do not know if this is to read too much between the lines, but in my re-reading of Got Jon tells Benjen that bastards grow faster than other children and earlier, when he's watching Joffrey, Jon says that Joffrey is taller than him and Robb, even though he is 12, while both off then are 14.

It could be a hint that Jon and Robb are legitimate children, since Joffrey is indeed a bastard?

Sorry for my English is not my mother language

Hello and welcome!

I agree with the above reply...perhaps a bit too literal when it comes to this. He means that bastards have to mature faster, they can't stay kids as long as a trueborn child. They are subjected to the cruelty of the world sooner.

[BearQueen87]

Every time the reference guide has been changed it was a group decision, so it's not going to change just because one person wants it to because RLJ threads do not belong to one person exclusively. It needs to be a group decision. So, Mark, I get what you're saying but you gotta remember you're dealing with a community here.

[RumHam]

There is some good information here, but there are a number of significant errors in this reference guide. For example, the language in bold is just incorrect. Ned never said to the Kingsguard that Aegon was dead. That should be fixed.

While we're complaining I still think this should be reworded:

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM.

1) We don't know that it was never made illegal, I think most of us at least agree it's illegal for most people and the question is "do the Targaryens care? / do you need the king's blessing."

2)Since the Targaryen family tree in the worldbook we know there were no examples after Maegor. (except possibly Rhaegar and Lyanna.)

What is the process for changing that stuff? Do you guys vote or something? The one time I started a R+L=J thread it didn't seem right to unilaterally change it.

[BearQueen87]

While we're complaining I still think this should be reworded:

1) We don't know that it was never made illegal, I think most of us at least agree it's illegal for most people and the question is "do the Targaryens care? / do you need the king's blessing."

2)Since the Targaryen family tree in the worldbook we know there were no examples after Maegor. (except possibly Rhaegar and Lyanna.)

What is the process for changing that stuff? Do you guys vote or something? The one time I started a R+L=J thread it didn't seem right to unilaterally change it.

The last time something was changed, I remember we talked about it first. But you're right, the person starting the thread shouldn't be changing stuff willy nilly.

[sj4iy]

While we're complaining I still think this should be reworded:

1) We don't know that it was never made illegal, I think most of us at least agree it's illegal for most people and the question is "do the Targaryens care? / do you need the king's blessing."

2)Since the Targaryen family tree in the worldbook we know there were no examples after Maegor. (except possibly Rhaegar and Lyanna.)

What is the process for changing that stuff? Do you guys vote or something? The one time I started a R+L=J thread it didn't seem right to unilaterally change it.

It's not illegal for anyone in Westeros.

"Socially unacceptable" is not the same thing, and unless you can provide an example as evidence, you cannot say that it was illegal.

[BearQueen87]

And sj4iy proves a point that I was going to make: not everyone is going to agree that a change needs to be made on certain issues.

[RumHam]

It's not illegal for most people.

"Socially unacceptable" is not the same thing, and unless you can provide an example as evidence, you cannot say that it was illegal.

Obviously we disagree. If you're making the statement that something that is clearly not considered an option in the Seven Kingdoms is perfectly legal, I think the burden is on you to prove that.

Do you have any evidence that it's a cultural thing? The North has a very different non-andalized culture and they still don't do it.

Edit: To be clear I'm not saying it should be changed to read that polygamy is illegal. Something like "the legality is unclear" or "It's never been stated that polygamy was made illegal."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

However in this case, multiplying entities (or to be specific locations) would appear to complicate the plot to no obvious benefit and weaken the author's symbolic narrative. That's why I say Occam's razor applies.

Okay. Help me understand what you mean here. Because part of the reason I've wanted to consider the possibility that Aegon passed by the tower of joy is that it actually appears to simplify some things in the story that otherwise are difficult and complicated to explain.

And I'm not sure how my proposal "multiplies" the number of locations involved - especially given that the tower of joy would be on the way to Starfall. If Lyanna was at Starfall, and Ned was delayed in reaching her because of the encounter at the tower of joy, then surely he'd forever after associate those two events in his mind/dreams. So why must Lyanna have been present at the tower of joy itself?

[sj4iy]

Obviously we disagree. If you're making the statement that something that is clearly not considered an option in the Seven Kingdoms is perfectly legal, I think the burden is on you to prove that.

Uh, no. I can find evidence of polygamous marriages without difficulty. I can also find evidence of Martin saying that the practice was never made illegal. The burden is therefore on you to find evidence of:

1. A law making it illegal

Or

2. A polygamous marriage prosecuted

You can't. Therefore, I absolutely disagree with the notion that we should change it because you, personally, don't believe it. You don't believe it, fine...but you have no evidence to base this assumption on.

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor!

[The Twinslayer]

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty) "R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

This part of the Reference Guide relating to polygamy needs to be updated for two reasons. First, we now know that there are not any other, less prominent examples of polygamy. Aegon (who took two wives before he converted to the Faith) and Maegor (who could not find a Septon to grant him a second marriage) are the only Targ men who took two wives.

Second, it is not correct to say that polygamy was never outlawed. We know that the Faith objected to polygamy, that Jaehaerys the Conciliator enacted a new code of laws after Maegor (the last polygamist) died, and that there are no known examples of polygamy after Jaehaerys passed the new laws. At most, you could say "the practice might not have been outlawed when Jaehaerys the Conciliator passed a new code of laws and reconciled with the Faith..."

EDIT: It looks like RumHam beat me to it on this point. This really needs to be corrected.