R+L=J v.122

[wolfmaid7]

Well was polygamy illegal? Because if it wasn't then R isn't acting above the law at all. There is no law to act above. Morality and legality are not one and the same. You can talk about if R was morally right when he (if he) married L, but if there is no law against it, then is he acting dishonorably? Is breaking the law = acting dishonorably (what if it is for a good cause, saying killing someone who is trying to kill you or your family?) And if you are not breaking the law at all does that mean you aren't acting dishonorably?

I know very well they aren't the same thing,but there is an aspect that needs to be considered "when in Rome do as the Romans" Why such a backlash when there was a violation of the Faith's law because the Targs entered into a contract of Faith right? The entire family line followed suit if i may be so bold.R himself did so he followed the Faith of the 7 so in a sense he is breaking a law no matter if it is the letter of a law that may or may not be but the spirit of a faith based Law.If you get my meaning? Breaking the law even for an honerable cause is still breaking the law.Self defense is self preservation and something completely different imo than deciding if your act is honerable or not.

Plus lets take your good cause arguement,no matter what will be hard to sell to others.Especially if the outcome is nothing good and left chaos in its wake.

[sj4iy]

Can i ask a question and it goes to something i've seen expressed a lot here.So you are saying the honorable Rheagar acted dishonorably and he was one of those who acted above the law when it suited him thus the polygamists marraige he involved himself with? It goes to connection about Rheagar.But am i making a fair assesment here.

I don't have a clue how moral or immoral an act he was committing. I personally am not at all bothered by alternative lifestyles...as long as no one is hurt. But we don't know the exact circumstances of Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance...we don't know if he told Elia, or if he only wanted Lyanna because of prophecy, or whatever...so I'm not about to pronounce moral judgments until we do. If he left Elia without a word, then he's scum. If he discussed it with her and she accepted it, then it's another matter entirely. There is too much we don't know in that regard.

But if polygamy wasn't illegal, then he didn't put himself above the law. And there is nothing proving that polygamy was illegal.

[The Twinslayer]

But evidence to support an inference is rather shaky. But I do get your point. The problem is that I don't know who wrote the Guide. I think J. Star probably updates it more than any of us...but I suppose some more ambiguity might be helpful for some. Especially if it means we don't have to have the Legit Debate every three threads.

I think it was Dr Pepper, about 2 years ago, who wrote the Reference Guide. I think she invited edits but perhaps she never got any.

Like I said before, there is good info there but there are some basic facts (eg, Ned never told the KGs that Aegon was dead) where I think everyone can agree that an edit is in order.

Unles anyone objects to that change, and can provide a solid quote to refute it, I suggest we start with the asking Jon Wiergaryen (the OP on this version) to change the version of the Reference Guide that appears in the OP so that going forward the Reference Guide won't repeat that mistake.

Does anyone object to this change?

[markg171]

I might be wrong, but aren't Cersei and Margaery only being charged because adultery against the king is treason?

Well Kevan says he arrested the Kettleblacks for fornicating with a Queen so I think it's just a crime in and of itself, otherwise he would have said he arrested them for treason.

[BearQueen87]

I know very well they aren't the same thing,but there is an aspect that needs to be considered "when in Rome do as the Romans" Why such a backlash when there was a violation of the Faith's law because the Targs entered into a contract of Faith right? The entire family line followed suit if i may be so bold.R himself did so he followed the Faith of the 7 so in a sense he is breaking a law no matter if it is the letter of a law that may or may not be but the spirit of a faith based Law.If you get my meaning?

And when the whole world is at stake (as R might have believed) does it matter if he's breaking some sort of family code of following convention? We need to be inside his head to see it how he saw it, but I think he knew that there was a destiny at stake--the salvation of the world to be precise. That might be sheer lunacy on R's part but if that's how he saw it, then that's how he saw it.

Have you seen Ygrain's signature? Her quote in her siggy pretty much sums up what I think R's mindset would be.. (hunting down if you haven't...she hasn't been on yet today in this thread)

ETA: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. - Javik, Mass Effect.

Ygrain's siggy (and I have no idea what Mass Effect or Javik is but. I think that is pretty much R's mindset.) What does his own personal honor or any sort of convention matter when the cost might be the souls of Planetos?

I think it was Dr Pepper, about 2 years ago, who wrote the Reference Guide. I think she invited edits but perhaps she never got any.

Like I said before, there is good info there but there are some basic facts (eg, Ned never told the KGs that Aegon was dead) where I think everyone can agree that an edit is in order.

Unles anyone objects to that change, and can provide a solid quote to refute it, I suggest we start with the asking Jon Wiergaryen (the OP on this version) to change the version of the Reference Guide that appears in the OP so that going forward the Reference Guide won't repeat that mistake.

Does anyone object to this change?

What exactly are you proposing it say? Honestly asking cause I'm not sure (4 convos going on in this thread)

[JonSnow4President]

And when the whole world is at stake (as R might have believed) does it matter if he's breaking some sort of family code of following convention? We need to be inside his head to see it how he saw it, but I think he knew that there was a destiny at stake--the salvation of the world to be precise. That might be sheer lunacy on R's part but if that's how he saw it, then that's how he saw it.

Have you seen Ygrain's signature? Her quote in her siggy pretty much sums up what I think R's mindset would be.. (hunting down if you haven't...she hasn't been on yet today in this thread)

ETA: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. - Javik, Mass Effect.

Ygrain's siggy (and I have no idea what Mass Effect or Javik is but. I think that is pretty much R's mindset.) What does his own personal honor or any sort of convention matter when the cost might be the souls of Planetos?

What exactly are you proposing it say? Honestly asking cause I'm not sure (4 convos going on in this thread)

Just to put this into the proper frame (and I've only played the multiplayer and read a little about the campaign), mass effect is a game series about the war/fight surrounding a race designed to reset sentinent life.

From the wikipedia entry:

Mass Effect 3 details the adventures of Systems Alliance Commander Shepard as they try to defeat a human-survivalist paramilitary group called Cerberus and a synthetic-organic race of machines known as the Reapers. The Reapers are immensely powerful and purge the galaxy of all advanced sapient life in 50,000 year cycles.

[markg171]

Just to put this into the proper frame (and I've only played the multiplayer and read a little about the campaign), mass effect is a game series about the war/fight surrounding a race designed to reset sentinent life.

From the wikipedia entry:

There's a lot more to the games, but yeah more or less it's about trying to stop life in the galaxy from being wiped out

[BearQueen87]

Just to put this into the proper frame (and I've only played the multiplayer and read a little about the campaign), mass effect is a game series about the war/fight surrounding a race designed to reset sentinent life.

From the wikipedia entry:

Thanks :) How...appropriate

[JonSnow4President]

There's a lot more to the games, but yeah more or less it's about trying to stop life in the galaxy from being wiped out

Like I said. Never done more than the multiplayer (bought it to play with a certain female friend). Spend most of my gaming time these days on Madden because I can just pick it up without having to get into a storytime frame of mind. Same reason my second read is going so slowly. F*** work (and yay, working from home on the 24th and 26th).

[wolfmaid7]

I don't have a clue how moral or immoral an act he was committing. I personally am not at all bothered by alternative lifestyles...as long as no one is hurt. But we don't know the exact circumstances of Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance...we don't know if he told Elia, or if he only wanted Lyanna because of prophecy, or whatever...so I'm not about to pronounce moral judgments until we do. If he left Elia without a word, then he's scum. If he discussed it with her and she accepted it, then it's another matter entirely. There is too much we don't know in that regard.

But if polygamy wasn't illegal, then he didn't put himself above the law. And there is nothing proving that polygamy was illegal.

This is where i disagree and it's because i'm coming at it different. There is nothing proving either or when it comes to the letter of a law. However,there is an arguement to be made for it when it comes to Faith based legality.If there wasn't there wouldn't be any backlash..no?

In other words would Rheagar acting the polygamists be accepted by his Faith or the people of the land?

And when the whole world is at stake (as R might have believed) does it matter if he's breaking some sort of family code of following convention? We need to be inside his head to see it how he saw it, but I think he knew that there was a destiny at stake--the salvation of the world to be precise. That might be sheer lunacy on R's part but if that's how he saw it, then that's how he saw it.

Have you seen Ygrain's signature? Her quote in her siggy pretty much sums up what I think R's mindset would be.. (hunting down if you haven't...she hasn't been on yet today in this thread)

ETA: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. - Javik, Mass Effect.

Ygrain's siggy (and I have no idea what Mass Effect or Javik is but. I think that is pretty much R's mindset.) What does his own personal honor or any sort of convention matter when the cost might be the souls of Planetos?

I can't say one way or the other but there are possibilities besides him thinking the world was in peril.He could have seen it differently.By differently i mean that this particular move was all about changing the political landscape.That being said is there any textual evidence be it implied or inferred that Rheagar dismissed his belief that Ageon was not TPTWP? That he no longer believed that?

I've seen Ygrain's sig by the way.

[The Twinslayer]

Actually this is not correct. I thought so too, but I asked Ran and apparently it was one of Aegon's fore-bearers who converted, and the secular Aegon embraced the Faith for political reasons. So that "Aegon converted for political reasons" SSM is now out of date, like many of the others. Ran should really go through and strike thru the parts that are untrue, but I understand he's a busy guy.

I would like to see the quote from Ran if you can post it. I don't doubt what you are saying, but even though I am skeptical of some of the SSMs, I find it hard to believe that Ran would issue a "So Spake Ran" that directly contradicts a well-known "So Spake Martin."

Edit: even if we can't come together on the legality of polygamy, can we at least agree the "may have been other example after Maegor" line should go?

That seems to be a no-brainer, too. Let's get that one changed in the Reference Guide as well.

[BearQueen87]

In other words would Rheagar acting the polygamists be accepted by his Faith or the people of the land?

1.I can't say one way or the other but there are possibilities besides him thinking the world was in peril.He could have seen it differently.That being said is there any textual evidence be it implied or inferred that Rheagar dismissed his belief that Ageon was not TPTWP?

I've seen Ygrain's sig by the way.

1. Well, Unmasked Lurker and I have been spouting the idea for quite awhile that yes, R changed his mind at some point. At some point, smart as a whip R would realize that Aegon (the son of a Martell and a Targ) can't have/be the Song of Ice and Fire but the son of R and a northern Stark girl (hello Winter and Ice references out the wazoo...) yeah, that would be the ticket. I actually think that at some point R remembered the pact of Ice and Fire and realized that it had been unfulfilled and that's part of what clued him in. After Elia gave birth (and almost died) to Aegon, R realizes he can't have his three-headed dragon because Rhaenys and Aegon are only two. He needs a third. Now, I believe (and I don't think you'll agree but ah, such is life without the Winds of Winter) that R and L were communicating for awhile and they decide to run off together, get married, and conceive a baby. Once consummated and once Aerys is gone, who is going to tell R he was wrong? The Faith...they kowtow to the crown. The Lords of Westeors? Yes, they might pitch a fit, but actually I think it would work out okay since Rickard's southron ambitions kicks in here. And at least R has gone and done his duty of providing the savior of the world, in his mind.

In other words, R might have thought it'd be tricky but not enough to full on stop him from going through with it.

I also normally point out that we've had evidence of R changing his mind in light of new things that happen. So, he thinks he is TPTWP until he sees a comet. Then it's his son with Elia. It's not out of the question that R changes his mind again when he comes across some new information or information forgotten and then remembered (ie: pact of ice and fire). GRRM and his three fold reveal system works for characters in universe, perhaps. 1) R believes it is him. 2) R believes it is Aegon. 3) R believes it will be his child with L. And because the prophecy is a PRINCE that is promised, then the babe must be true born.

ETA: and as more historical background that R would have at his disposal, the marriage of Jaehaerys II and how Aegon was unable to break that (an incestual marriage...worse than polygamy!) because it was consummated! Nothing says consummated like a baby.

[sj4iy]

No, that line is directly from Martin himself. The World Book doesn't rule it out, because we don't have comprehensive list of every single person in the Targaryen family.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

[IceFire125]

King Jon will surprise his people in Westeros just as Aegon. I don't think King's Landing, specifically, The Red Keep will be the location of Jon's throne.

Many thought that King Aegon would make Oldtown his royal seat after the wars were done, whilst others thought he would rule from Dragonstone, the ancient island citadel of House Targaryen. The king surprised them all by proclaiming his intent to make his court in the new town already rising beneath the three hills at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush

--

King Jon will be a progressive King as was Aegon I.

In these progresses, the king was accompanied not only by his courtiers but by maesters and septons as well. Six maesters were often in his company to advise him upon the local laws and traditions of the former realms, so that he might rule in judgment at the courts he held. Rather than attempting to unify the realm under one set of laws, he respected the differing customs of each region and sought to judge as their past kings might have. (It would be left for a later king to bring the laws of the realm into accord.)

Word spread fast at Castle Black. Edd was still saddling the grey when Bowen Marsh stomped across the yard to confront Jon at the stables. “My lord, I wish you would reconsider. The new men can take their vows in the sept as easily.”

“The sept is home to the new gods. The old gods live in the wood, and those who honor them say their words amongst the weirwoods. You know that as well as I.”

“Satin comes from Oldtown, and Arron and Emrick from the westerlands. The old gods are not their gods.”

“I do not tell men which god to worship. They were free to choose the Seven or the red woman’s Lord of Light. They chose the trees instead, with all the peril that entails.”

[RumHam]

I would like to see the quote from Ran if you can post it. I don't doubt what you are saying, but even though I am skeptical of some of the SSMs, I find it hard to believe that Ran would issue a "So Spake Ran" that directly contradicts a well-known "So Spake Martin."

That seems to be a no-brainer, too. Let's get that one changed in the Reference Guide as well.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119534-twoiaf-spoilers-inconsistency-or-intentional/?p=6539499

GRRM's response at Asshai is sort of in error -- bear in mind that a third party was translating questions in Spanish to English for him, and it may be that the translator said "Targaryens" rather than Aegon. Yes, the Targaryens adopted the Seven as a political maneuver, but because of this Aegon was a follower of the Seven (at least nominally; truth be told he seems to have been pretty irreligious) from infancy. And Aegon certainly had the High Septon crown him as a political maneuver as well, so perhaps that's what GRRM took out of whatever was translated to him.

[BearQueen87]

No, that line is directly from Martin himself. The World Book doesn't rule it out, because we don't have comprehensive list of every single person in the Targaryen family.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

Right, and given that post WB we know that no Targ monarch after Maegor had more than one wife at a time...

Why, hello there Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia. How are you today?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It multiplies Lyanna's reported locations. Why give the impression she's at the ToJ and then have her secretly turn out to be at Starfall? This would complicate the story and diminish a pivotal moment of AGoT. It would weaken the mythic parallels. GRRM would want a very good reason for doing all of that.

Ah. Well, that really just takes us back to where we started. Neither the Kingsguard encounter nor Ned's final meeting with Lyanna actually take place in AGOT... they are only referenced in memory and dream. So if what you mean by "a pivotal moment of AGOT" is Ned's dream... then it's hard to see why a shared physical location would be required - or how the lack of one would necessarily diminish the force of the text.

What we have in the text is (as you say) an impression that Lyanna and the tower of joy are connected in Ned's mind. I'd hesitate to characterize that as a "report" of Lyanna's specific location.

All that said, this particular aspect of the discussion was incidental to my suggestion that we consider the possibility that Aegon was taken south to Starfall from King's Landing. And the reason I thought that might be worth exploring was that - given his reported survival - Aegon's presence in the Prince's Pass would seem to provide a reasonable explanation for the KG presence Ned found there on his ride south. Arguably, it would present a simpler and better explanation than anything having to do with Lyanna Stark or Jon Snow, because Aegon was indisputably of Targaryen blood - Rhaegar's heir and the child he'd already identified as the prince who was promised.

[BearQueen87]

Ah. Well, that really just takes us back to where we started. Neither the Kingsguard encounter nor Ned's final meeting with Lyanna actually take place in AGOT... they are only referenced in memory and dream. So if what you mean by "a pivotal moment of AGOT" is Ned's dream... then it's hard to see why a shared physical location would be required - or how the lack of one would necessarily diminish the force of the text.

And memories and dreams can be faulty or can reflect what we wish instead of what really was....but to Ned, this dream makes perfect sense. He doesn't wake up and think about the oddity of the dream or reflect on how he wished this could have been his reality instead of what really was. The only thing odd, to Ned the guy who lived it, is that he has the dream now, not the dream itself.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And memories and dreams can be faulty or can reflect what we wish instead of what really was....but to Ned, this dream makes perfect sense. He doesn't wake up and think about the oddity of the dream or reflect on how he wished this could have been his reality instead of what really was. The only thing odd, to Ned the guy who lived it, is that he has the dream now, not the dream itself.

Indeed. I can agree with that.

[The Twinslayer]

And when the whole world is at stake (as R might have believed) does it matter if he's breaking some sort of family code of following convention? We need to be inside his head to see it how he saw it, but I think he knew that there was a destiny at stake--the salvation of the world to be precise. That might be sheer lunacy on R's part but if that's how he saw it, then that's how he saw it.

Have you seen Ygrain's signature? Her quote in her siggy pretty much sums up what I think R's mindset would be.. (hunting down if you haven't...she hasn't been on yet today in this thread)

ETA: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. - Javik, Mass Effect.

Ygrain's siggy (and I have no idea what Mass Effect or Javik is but. I think that is pretty much R's mindset.) What does his own personal honor or any sort of convention matter when the cost might be the souls of Planetos?

That quote always makes me wonder why Rhaegar or Lyanna would care about being married, if they thought honor is unimportant compared to fulfilling a prophecy.

What exactly are you proposing it say? Honestly asking cause I'm not sure (4 convos going on in this thread)

I would put this under the heading "Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?":

The argument that Jon is legitimate is that there are two instances of Targaryen Kings' entering into polygamous marriages: Aegon the Conqueror married both of his sisters prior to the Conquest and his son Maegor the Cruel took multiple wives after the Conquest, over the vehement objections of the Faith. While it is sometimes argued that King Jaehaerys outlawed polygamy when he repaired the Targayens' rift with the Faith and wrote a new unified code of laws, and there are no known cases of Targaryen polygamy after Jaehaerys came to the throne, it is possible that Jaehaerys did not explicitly outlaw polygamy.

Also, three Kingsguard were present at the tower of joy when Ned arrived. Some believe that that the Kingsguard must set other duties aside and go to a new king when the old king dies. If this is correct, and if the Kingsguard believed that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, and that a true born son of Rhaegar would come before Viserys in the line of succession, it is possible that the Kingsguard thought that baby Jon was the new king and that they were there to guard him. This theory finds some support in the fact that Ned told the Kingsguard that Rhaegar and Aerys were dead. It is possible that they also believed that Aegon was dead (even though Aegon's fate is not overtly mentioned) and that they were unaware that after Rhaegar died, Viserys was Aerys' "new heir."