R+L=J v.122

[sj4iy]

Uh, the Targaryens very obviously continued incest after Jaehaerys.

[RumHam]

No, that line is directly from Martin himself. The World Book doesn't rule it out, because we don't have comprehensive list of every single person in the Targaryen family.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

Again a lot of those SSMs have now been invalidated. We have a pretty comprehensive list. It seems really unlikely that some distant relative practiced polygamy. If they did I'm sure they got the crown's permission. If Daemon had to ask Viserys for permission to divorce I'm sure he would have need permission to take a second wife as well. Otherwise why not just marry Rhaenyra in secret while still married to the Royce? Why did prince Aegon (the future IV) have a mummer playing a septon marry him to Merry Meg instead of just taking her as a legit second wife? Why was Daemon Blackfyre "convinced" he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon and Maegor if it was commonly accepted that he could?

I believe so? (eep. I need AFFC re-read)

Ser Kevan was unmoved. “If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason.”

[The Twinslayer]

What exactly are you proposing it say? Honestly asking cause I'm not sure (4 convos going on in this thread)

I would also put this under the heading "But polygamy hasn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?"

It is never stated in the books either way whether the practice of polygamy was made illegal. It is clear that the Faith objected to polygamy and that when Rhaegar married Elia in the Faith he took a sacred vow not to sleep with any other women. It is also known that after the Faith Uprising during the reign of Maegor the Cruel, the last Targaryen to take multiple wives, Maegor's successor Jaehaerys reconciled with the Faith and created a unified code of laws. However, numerous kings, like Aegon the Unworthy and Robert Barratheon got away with breaking their marriage vows, and it is never expressly stated that polygamy was outlawed, so Rhaegar might have been able to take a second wife without breaking the law.

[sj4iy]

Again a lot of those SSMs have now been invalidated. We have a pretty comprehensive list. It seems really unlikely that some distant relative practiced polygamy. If they did I'm sure they got the crown's permission. If Daemon had to ask Viserys for permission to divorce I'm sure he would have need permission to take a second wife as well. Otherwise why not just marry Rhaenyra in secret while still married to the Royce? Why did prince Aegon (the future IV) have a mummer playing a septon marry him to Merry Meg instead of just taking her as a legit second wife? Why was Daemon Blackfyre "convinced" he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon and Maegor if it was commonly accepted that he could?

How were they "invalidated"? Is something stopping Martin from changing or adding new information to the World Book? Because he certainly could. So no, I see nothing that "invalidates" him saying "I might make up more".

[RumHam]

How were they "invalidated"? Is something stopping Martin from changing or adding new information to the World Book? Because he certainly could. So no, I see nothing that "invalidates" him saying "I might make up more".

Well if the worldbook contradicts a SSM, you should go with the worldbook. Yes there will probably be future editions correcting errors, I suppose they could add more information but until they do I don't think we should cling to that SSM. It seems clear to me he decided not to include any more in the family tree. Rhaegar and Lyanna is still a possibility, but that wouldn't be what he was referring to in that SSM. If Jon is legitimate Martin decided this well before that SSM, so he wouldn't be making it up. I really doubt he would have to check his notes on that either.

You have no response to the rest of my last post? To me it seems those three instances suggest that polygamy was not considered an option for a Targaryen prince without the blessing of the crown.

[The Twinslayer]

No, that line is directly from Martin himself. The World Book doesn't rule it out, because we don't have comprehensive list of every single person in the Targaryen family.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

That SSM needs to be corrected. It says Maegor had 8 or 9 wives, but the world book says he only had 6.

[sj4iy]

Well if the worldbook contradicts a SSM, you should go with the worldbook. Yes there will probably be future editions correcting errors, I suppose they could add more information but until they do I don't think we should cling to that SSM. It seems clear to me he decided not to include any more in the family tree. Rhaegar and Lyanna is still a possibility, but that wouldn't be what he was referring to in that SSM. If Jon is legitimate Martin decided this well before that SSM, so he wouldn't be making it up. I really doubt he would have to check his notes on that either.

You have no response to the rest of my last post? To me it seems those three instances suggest that polygamy was not considered an option for a Targaryen prince without the blessing of the crown.

It didn't "invalidate it" because it basically says "if GRRM wants to make shit up, he can". You can't invalidate the author's prerogative. And they don't clash against one another at all. Too much information was left out to actually say that there are no other instances of it. Maybe no other King did it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't done.

And the Prince doesn't need the blessing of the crown if he never asks for it...hence the entire "run off and hide" charade. Much harder to deny a consummated marriage if there's a kid.

[markg171]

Thanks :) How...appropriate

Well not to get back to the whole debate about Aegon being at the TOJ thing, but in the game you do have to make choices knowing that certain choices will bring about certain deaths. For instance there's a point in the game where you are presented with a coming situation, but you have time only to get to one of your team mates and you specifically have to choose which one to save and which one has to die.

So if the game is quite appropriate, then Rhaegar chose to save Aegon ;)

[Kingmonkey]

Ah. Well, that really just takes us back to where we started. Neither the Kingsguard encounter nor Ned's final meeting with Lyanna actually take place in AGOT... they are only referenced in memory and dream. So if what you mean by "a pivotal moment of AGOT" is Ned's dream... then it's hard to see why a shared physical location would be required - or how the lack of one would necessarily diminish the force of the text.

Yes, Ned's dream. It's pivotal to the storytelling, not just in the information it provides but in the way it presents it. The ToJ sequence isn't presented as a real memory but as a dream, and it follows a common mythic structure (maiden in the tower). It creates a kind of mystical precursor or "foundation myth" for the chain of events of ASOIAF. While I wouldn't trust the details to be particularly accurate, to undo such a fundamental part of it as Lyanna's presence would untether it from its place as a storytelling device.

All that said, this particular aspect of the discussion was incidental to my suggestion that we consider the possibility that Aegon was taken south to Starfall from King's Landing. And the reason I thought that might be worth exploring was that - given his reported survival - Aegon's presence in the Prince's Pass would seem to provide a reasonable explanation for the KG presence Ned found there on his ride south. Arguably, it would present a simpler and better explanation than anything having to do with Lyanna Stark or Jon Snow, because Aegon was indisputably of Targaryen blood - Rhaegar's heir and the child he'd already identified as the prince who was promised.

Well, it seems like a very problematic idea to be honest. Why would the 3KG have been at the ToJ in the first place, if not to guard Lyanna? And if Lyanna had gone on to Starfall, why would the 3KG be waiting there rather than accompanying her? If Aegon had arrived before Lyanna left, why would they not have all travelled to Starfall together, and if after why are the 3KG still hanging out there? Why would Aegon still be there when he had to have left before or during the sack, and Ned had time to stay in KL to sort things out and end the siege at Storm's End before reaching the ToJ? Why take Aegon on a very long cross country journey, when there's an army approaching or possibly sacking the city by land, but no threat by sea? Who took Aegon to the ToJ? There are a lot of questions raised by this idea, but does it give us any answers to help balance that out?

[wolfmaid7]

1. Well, Unmasked Lurker and I have been spouting the idea for quite awhile that yes, R changed his mind at some point. At some point, smart as a whip R would realize that Aegon (the son of a Martell and a Targ) can't have/be the Song of Ice and Fire but the son of R and a northern Stark girl (hello Winter and Ice references out the wazoo...) yeah, that would be the ticket. I actually think that at some point R remembered the pact of Ice and Fire and realized that it had been unfulfilled and that's part of what clued him in. After Elia gave birth (and almost died) to Aegon, R realizes he can't have his three-headed dragon because Rhaenys and Aegon are only two. He needs a third. Now, I believe (and I don't think you'll agree but ah, such is life without the Winds of Winter) that R and L were communicating for awhile and they decide to run off together, get married, and conceive a baby. Once consummated and once Aerys is gone, who is going to tell R he was wrong? The Faith...they kowtow to the crown. The Lords of Westeors? Yes, they might pitch a fit, but actually I think it would work out okay since Rickard's southron ambitions kicks in here. And at least R has gone and done his duty of providing the savior of the world, in his mind.

In other words, R might have thought it'd be tricky but not enough to full on stop him from going through with it.

I also normally point out that we've had evidence of R changing his mind in light of new things that happen. So, he thinks he is TPTWP until he sees a comet. Then it's his son with Elia. It's not out of the question that R changes his mind again when he comes across some new information or information forgotten and then remembered (ie: pact of ice and fire). GRRM and his three fold reveal system works for characters in universe, perhaps. 1) R believes it is him. 2) R believes it is Aegon. 3) R believes it will be his child with L. And because the prophecy is a PRINCE that is promised, then the babe must be true born.

ETA: and as more historical background that R would have at his disposal, the marriage of Jaehaerys II and how Aegon was unable to break that (an incestual marriage...worse than polygamy!) because it was consummated! Nothing says consummated like a baby.

1. So no inference or implication to that effect though i agree that Elia herself is also akin to Fire.In the WB Arch Maester Brude in comparing Dorne to the North actually reffered to both places respectively as hot and cold. He found more similarities according to him between Dorne and the North.Its page 235. I don't know if he changed his mind if Dany's vision was of a true event then even though he thought Ageon was TPTWP he still thought and would have thought he needed another anyway.He said there must be three.So TPTWP plus two supporting cast members so to speak.

According to Anne Groelle GRRM's 3 fold reveal system which she believes he has,has more to do with readers discernement of hidden text than what the characters know or will know.So i don't know if Anne is right about what she deduces when it comes to that.

If R decided to follow in J's footstep and use that precedence,i don't know he may well have done that and said frack the consequences.Who vex.vex :dunno:

Yes you are right i find it hard to believe any communication occured between R & L between the tourney and when Lya left/abducted.

[RumHam]

It didn't "invalidate it" because it basically says "if GRRM wants to make shit up, he can". You can't invalidate the author's prerogative. And they don't clash against one another at all. Too much information was left out to actually say that there are no other instances of it. Maybe no other King did it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't done.

I'd say it's clear that no kings or their sons did it, we get a pretty good accounting of their reigns and who everybody married. I mean who are you thinking could have that it wasn't mentioned or on the family tree?

And the Prince doesn't need the blessing of the crown if he never asks for it...hence the entire "run off and hide" charade. Much harder to deny a consummated marriage if there's a kid.

I think he does need the blessing of the crown, especially if there are laws against polygamy. Why couldn't Daemon run off and get a divorce? It's the same kinda situation. You need the blessing of the high septon and/or king. If polygamy was an option I really think Daemon would have just married Rhaenyra as a second wife to secure his position. It would make a lot more sense than sleeping with her and telling his brother "well now you'd better let me marry her since no one else will have her."

Aegon ran off and hid and had kids with Merry Meg, but still apparently didn't feel he could actually marry her or couldn't find a real septon to do it.

And there's this line from the worldbook:

Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife

Which I think makes it pretty clear it's the king's call.

Edit: legitimizing bastards is another example where the king has sole authority. You can't just secretly legitimize your bastard and avoid the issue by never asking permission at all.

[markg171]

And memories and dreams can be faulty or can reflect what we wish instead of what really was....but to Ned, this dream makes perfect sense. He doesn't wake up and think about the oddity of the dream or reflect on how he wished this could have been his reality instead of what really was. The only thing odd, to Ned the guy who lived it, is that he has the dream now, not the dream itself.

Well that's not necessarily true.

In the dream, the northmen are riding horses made of mist. Obviously that's physically impossible, but it's particularly odd in that we know Dustin rode a great red stallion, and Ned specifically remembers this and mentions it, but the horses, including Dustin's, are still made of mist.

In the dream, there are also blue rose petals flying across the sky. But when he finds Lyanna, the petals are black.

So we know for sure that there are inconsistencies in the dream and that it does not make perfect sense of what actually happened. I'm of the opinion that overall, yes the dream makes sense to Ned and the overall theme of it covers reality, but we know for sure that there are aspects of it that are wrong.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wow, we're only five pages into a new thread when I wake up....A response to Twinslayer from the previous thread:

You misunderstood. I was responding to a poster who said that Rhaegar has to be Jon's father because the PWWP has to be of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

I made two separate points. First, Jon may not be the PWWP. It could be Dany. Second, Jon could be the PWWP even if he is not descended from any Targaryen, if the woods witch got the prophecy wrong.

The last few posts you quoted were mine...All we know is that the prophesized savior will come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella... Not only Aerys, not only Rhaella, but from one of their combined descendants.

Does it have to be Jon? No, Jon is not the only descendant of Aerys and Rhaella. But the poster I wad originally replying to was arguing that Jon could be both the promised prince, and Lyanna's child by Aerys... Those two don't go together...

Could Dany be this promised 'prince'? Sure, she is also of the line of Aerys and Rhaella. That fits. And Maester Aemon in Feast already explains where the prince/princess discrepancy came from...

[Ygrain]

And when the whole world is at stake (as R might have believed) does it matter if he's breaking some sort of family code of following convention? We need to be inside his head to see it how he saw it, but I think he knew that there was a destiny at stake--the salvation of the world to be precise. That might be sheer lunacy on R's part but if that's how he saw it, then that's how he saw it.

Have you seen Ygrain's signature? Her quote in her siggy pretty much sums up what I think R's mindset would be.. (hunting down if you haven't...she hasn't been on yet today in this thread)

ETA: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. - Javik, Mass Effect.

Ygrain's siggy (and I have no idea what Mass Effect or Javik is but. I think that is pretty much R's mindset.) What does his own personal honor or any sort of convention matter when the cost might be the souls of Planetos?

Oh, I am most pleased, though Javik would probably just snort in contempt, as a survivor of the above-mentioned apocalypse that wiped out his whole race. Either way, the scenario is very similar - an ancient evil has awaken to annihilate one and all and a hero must arise to unite everyone to take a stand, and the victory takes sacrifices. Only, since this is a SF setting, there are no prophecies :-)

ETA: Speaking of good quotes, there is also one from Babylon 5 (yeah, ancient evil revival scenario is popular regardless of the genre, and here we even have a sort of prophecy): Some must be sacrificed for everyone to be saved.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to the reference guide text. It currrently is:

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

I propose the following:

No mentions are made that the practise was ever made illegal. While only Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy since the Conquest (two and six wives respectively), the topic had been discussed and considered amongst Targaryens of a few occasions since. It is rumoured that Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre considered it as an option for Daemon, and Jorah Mormont has suggested it to Daenerys Targaryen in the main series. Daenerys later made the same statement against Quentyn Martell.

What ya'll think?

[Ygrain]

As to the reference guide text. It currrently is:

I propose the following:

What ya'll think?

The SSM should still be brought up, as it makes clear that there was no dividing line between possible and not possible in the author's mind. If GRRM had intended to make it illegal, he wouldn't have mentioned the possibility of later examples.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The SSM should still be brought up, as it makes clear that there was no dividing line between possible and not possible in the author's mind. If GRRM had intended to make it illegal, he wouldn't have mentioned the possibility of later examples.

Ok, hold on.

No mentions are made that the practise was ever made illegal. While only Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy since the Conquest (two and six wives respectively), the topic had been discussed and considered amongst Targaryens of a few occasions since. It is rumoured that Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre considered it as an option for Daemon, and Jorah Mormont has suggested it to Daenerys Targaryen in the main series. Daenerys later made the same statement against Quentyn Martell.

In addition, in this SSM, where GRRM discusses Maegors many wives, he states that, should he feel it necessary, he could make up examples of polygamous marriages in the Targaryen tree, suggesting that GRRM did not consider there to be a line between polygamous marriages being possible and not possible.

Like this? Only someone has to interlinked the SSM, I'm not yet good enough with tapatalk to make that work

[Ygrain]

this SSM

Like this?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Allow me to condense it like this:

...

Old entry:

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

New entry:

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
No mentions are made that the practise was ever made illegal. While only Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy since the Conquest, it is rumoured that Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre considered it as an option for Daemon, and Jorah Mormont has suggested it to Daenerys Targaryen in the main series. Daenerys later made the same statement against Quentyn Martell. There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.

...

Are you happy with that?

[Ygrain]

What about Daemon and Rhaenyra?