R+L=J v.122

[sj4iy]

In my perfect world scenario, updating the OP means we can stop arguing about polygamy since both sides are being represented.

*yes, BQ knows this is a pipe dream* *and is now going to go do actual dreaming before she gets suckered into more TOJ/Aegon/No Is Really Dead/ Everyone Is A Targ/ Jon is Not Really Jon talk*

You and your attempts to make everyone happy!

XD

[J. Stargaryen]

I appreciate your thoughts. I'm not sure I agree with you that what we get in the text is a "cover story," at least in any official sense. The only thing at all we hear from YG is that Varys found a tanner from Pisswater Bend who exchanged a son for a flagon of Arbor gold, and this is the child who died in the Sack. Everything Tyrion adds to that is just a guess.

Whether that is true or not, I was simply pointing out that there was no contradiction in sj4iy's argument, which is what I thought you were getting at when you said: "And I remain confused - because while you rely on Tyrion's story as "fact" when you argue against my ideas ... at other times you've claimed that Tyrion himself doesn't believe the tale ..."

Somewhat true. I am not offering a theory, per se. I'm only asking questions. Ironically, they include some of the same questions that must be considered in the formulation of an RLJ hypothesis... only, since ADWD, there is an entirely new direction or hypothesis to consider, having to do with young Aegon.

As you know, we've talked about the Hitchens thing. The KG presence in the Prince's Pass is evidence - that's where all of this starts. The question is... evidence of what?

The one (borrowed) piece of evidence for Aegon being at the ToJ has been addressed plenty of times, so that's not what I was referring to.

You stated your desire for sj4iy to acknowledge the "points" you have made. Except, you haven't really made any, because pretty much every thing you've come up with has been an argument from ignorance. You've just been hopping from one yet-to-be-ruled-out scenario to the next. These types of arguments are flawed and self defeating, and don't even require a response.

It might have been just before or just after the coronation, since it is descrbed as a coronation present. Also, Ned headed out the same day. I doubt he missed the coronation. So it happened on coronation day, which had to be several days after Aerys died.

Why?

[The Twinslayer]

No, I really don't think there should be any anti-RLJ stuff in the OP. That's not what this thread is actually for (well, not the OP at least). I think the FAQ polygamy part should be updated but it needs to be brief, just like the pro-polygamy answer is. It can't go into every for-instance of polygamy being possibly illegal.

That is a shame, because if you open a thread suggesting that R+L does not =J, the mods will close it and tell you to take it to this thread. If this thread is set up with a bias toward R+L=

(Legitimate) J, then the debate is pretty well stifled.

Be that as it may, I suggested new language for the polygmy FAQ up thread. But I really think RumHam should be heard on that language before we finalize it.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

How are you figuring that timeline?. Tywin got to KL before Ned did. He sent men to kill Aegon right away. He had them killed, wrapped up their bodies and waited for Robert who was not that far behind.

And it could not be "the second" Aerys was discovered dead. KL was in chaos. It was a sack. No one stopped to send a raven to the KG (because...think about it...who would have??--Pycelle? Mr. Lannister Loyalist who told Aerys to open the gates?) Whoever sent the raven to the TOJ would have been a Targ loyalist and would have included all the information.

I'm saying that when reports of Aegon's death reach the TOJ (with the death of Aerys) and they've apparently got baby Aegon in the TOj are they not at all suspicious of what is going on? Do they not question whether or not they've got the right baby? Do they not stop and go "omg...we've been had!" No. Because Aegon wasn't at the TOJ or Dorne or anywhere else except on the throne room floor with an open skull.

I'm saying we don't know what the KG knew about Aegon. Your saying that Aegon is dead and the KG know this, which is not stated in the books.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Nothing at all proving it.

Except for:

1. Rhaegar actually giving it a NAME.

2. The woman with whom he absconded dying there.

3. The two KG with whom he "stole" Lyanna dying there.

4. The man who was sent to find him dying there.

You're completely right. There's nothing at all to prove it.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I meant during his abscence from the public, so ever was the wrong word to use. He most likely stopped there at some time since he gave a sobriquet, but that's never stated when that happened.

As to points 2 and 3, those aren't proofs that Rhaegar was there. Point 4, I don't know who you're talking about.

[The Twinslayer]

Why?

Because Ned raced to KL after the Trident expecting to start a long siege, and instead found Aerys bleeding out. And because Robert, who was wounded, and who sent his own Maester to tend to Barristan, followed at a more leisurely pace to support the siege. Ned and Robert learned that Aegon was (supposedly) deals after Robert arrived and was crowned.

How long do you think it took for Robert and his infantry to get from the Trident to KL versus how long it took Ned and the van to race down there? Perhaps a week?

[J. Stargaryen]

Because Ned raced to KL after the Trident expecting to start a long siege, and instead found Aerys bleeding out. And because Robert, who was wounded, and who sent his own Maester to tend to Barristan, followed at a more leisurely pace to support the siege. Ned and Robert learned that Aegon was (supposedly) deals after Robert arrived and was crowned.

How long do you think it took for Robert and his infantry to get from the Trident to KL versus how long it took Ned and the van to race down there? Perhaps a week?

No, I was under the impression it was much quicker.

[markg171]

Not for Dayne and Whent. I think you're missing that point. There is a lot of speculation that Danye and Whent had sworn themselves to Rhaegar (as in : as their king). That's why we harp on Hightower more than Dayne and Whent at the TOJ and what was going on.

They can be Rhaegar's sworn shields, but as KG, their allegiance lies with Aerys. I don't think Rhaegar can simply have 2/7 of Aerys' personal guard, obey only him. That would be Princesguards, not Kingsguards.

None of the KG are sworn to defend the royal family members. Barristan tells us that they swear to the king, and he can then tell them to defend the royal family. I think with Rhaegar, he simply had the added benefit that Dayne and Whent had sworn that they would try and defend him from a command by Aerys. If they were sworn simply to him, they weren't KG. It must come Aerys first, then Rhaegar.

[markg171]

How are you figuring that timeline?. Tywin got to KL before Ned did. He sent men to kill Aegon right away. He had them killed, wrapped up their bodies and waited for Robert who was not that far behind.

And it could not be "the second" Aerys was discovered dead. KL was in chaos. It was a sack. No one stopped to send a raven to the KG (because...think about it...who would have??--Pycelle? Mr. Lannister Loyalist who told Aerys to open the gates?) Whoever sent the raven to the TOJ would have been a Targ loyalist and would have included all the information.

I'm saying that when reports of Aegon's death reach the TOJ (with the death of Aerys) and they've apparently got baby Aegon in the TOj are they not at all suspicious of what is going on? Do they not question whether or not they've got the right baby? Do they not stop and go "omg...we've been had!" No. Because Aegon wasn't at the TOJ or Dorne or anywhere else except on the throne room floor with an open skull.

I kind of wonder whether Tywin did get to KL before Ned did. It seems almost impossible.

The Trident is closer to KL than Casterly Rock is. Ned should have got there first as he had less distance to travel. Not only that, but Ned would have had a head start as he left after the battle. Tywin couldn't have left at the same time, as he hadn't even called his banners yet, and he didn't call them until he heard that Robert won the Trident. Then he called them, and marched on KL. So Ned should have had a significant head start, and he had less distance to travel. Throw that in with him personally commenting on how the Sack had no honour, and I can't help but wonder whether he wasn't a part of it.

I know we're told by many people that the Lannisters got there first, but it doesn't exactly add up.

[RumHam]

Do you think Tywin served up the bodies a day or two after the coronation? I don't, I think it was the same day. Ned rode out the same day, and I don't think he missed the coronation.

As far as coronation gifts go, this is from ADWD, Barristan:

"Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King's Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up on crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king."

I actually think he served them up before the coronation, basically as soon as Robert got to King's Landing. Then Ned left and thus probably missed the coronation. "A gift for the new king" is not really that useful for nailing down the timeline of the "gift" vs the coronation.

On another note, what do you think of my proposed revision to the FAQs in the OP to this thread? I think the question about whether polygamy was ever outlawed should be edited to ask (1) whether it was ever legal (or of Aegon and Maegor just got away with it because they had dragons), and (2) whether the reason no one has done it since Jaehaerys reconciled with the Faith and created a unified system of laws is that the unified laws outlawed polygamy. What do you think?

You know I agree with you on polygamy being illegal, but the change I was asking for has already been made. The guide used to state that polygamy was never outlawed, now it says that there's no mention of it being outlawed. Hooray for small victories, but you can't really expect the reference guide to commit a long paragraph to the ramifications of our theory that polygamy may have been outlawed.

As I've said I don't think the the Daemon Blackfyre and Jorah situations shed much light on the legality of polygamy. In both cases we're talking about the ruling monarch approving of the situation. In fact as I've pointed out the Daemon Blackfyre situation makes it pretty clear the king's permission is required.

This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne.

If polygamy was not illegal why doesn't Daemon know he can have more than one bride? Why is it something that it's claimed Aegon the Unworthy might have allowed?

So yeah in a perfect world those things wouldn't be mentioned there as evidence of the legality of polygamy, but at least we've taken a step in the right direction.

[markg171]

I adamantly disagree with any revision on polygamy.

There is obvious precedent and no mention of illegality. It should stay as it is, otherwise we turn the OP into a god-of-the-gaps argument...and that's not what it is for. In any case, Rhaegar was the second most powerful man in Westeros and in line for the throne...questions of legality don't really play into it because only one person could theoretically stop him from it- and there's no evidence that Aerys did.

I would argue though that seeing as Cersei was arrested for adultery and fornication, despite the fact that Robert was dead, would indicate that when Cersei married Robert, she agreed to ONLY sleep with Robert. For LIFE.

[Ygrain]

One thing that small but could be big is the way Jon's eye are depicted \

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost Black" Bran 1

Egg is depicted, before it is discoved that he is a Tragaryan(and Dayne) as having dark blue eggs almost Black, and so is Ned Dayne. Also recalling that men see what they expect to see (Ned's really Stark looking son having Grey Eyes) could it be that Jon is Volet eyes?This may be a bit Crakpot

This has been noted :-) We can even add Darkstar who has eyes so deep purple that they look black unless one looks from very close.

In my perfect world scenario, updating the OP means we can stop arguing about polygamy since both sides are being represented.

It won't stop naysayers from clogging the thread, anyway. I'm with sj4iy, no such changes.

No, I was under the impression it was much quicker.

Of course it had to be much quicker. Can you imagine a week old corpses in KL's warm climate?

[King Tyrion XX]

Will 122 be the thread that never ends?

Leave it open til an official GRRM TWOW completion announcement :commie:

[finger]

Please try to use first the best information, When talking of the corpses, there are the inner thoughts of an eye witness. I posted it yesterday.

BS had been wound, and never saw the corpses. Ned was too pissed off to notice anything. But you have the efficient Kevan, judging carefully everything he saw. I wonder what Tywin had accomplished without Kevan.

History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And GRRM style is giving clues through side stories. So I think he's telling the details of Jon's birth through his adventures as a grown up. There are two stories in the far north that I find closely related to the events in Dorne: Sterling Pass and Gilly's son.

Sterling Pass was the route to the Frostfangs, and there was a paramount place to watch the pass, central to the story. I guess it is the northern parallel to ToJ. And ToJ beeing also a key place, doesn't mean they had to stay there for a couple of years. It was just a broken down watchtower built in a good place.

Gilly's story is the best explained baby swap among the several instances in the book. My take is that Mance's son is token for Aegon.

I leave it here, so that you can brood over it, I'll come back to it later.

Eta: btw, TWOIAF offers at least one instance of an evacuated prince. It seems an usual tactics amongst those people, together with swapping.

[Ygrain]

Will 122 be the thread that never ends?

Leave it open til an official GRRM TWOW completion announcement :commie:

My sweet summer child, there was once a thread running over a 1000 posts.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I would argue though that seeing as Cersei was arrested for adultery and fornication, despite the fact that Robert was dead, would indicate that when Cersei married Robert, she agreed to ONLY sleep with Robert. For LIFE.

You realise that there is a difference between sleeping with a person you are married to, and sleeping with a person you are not married to? Cersei was tried for adultery after Roberts death... But for adultery committed during her marriage to him. For sleeping with someone who she wasn't married to, in a time period where she was indeed married.

The fact that Tywin offers Cersei in marriage to others after Roberts death, with the idea of fathering children in this new marriage, says that Cersei, upon marrying Robert, swore to sleep with kbly Robert for the rest of her life, even if he died years before her?

The fact that the High Septon, IIRC, did not mind it when Cersei confessed to having been sexually active after Roberts death suggests nothing regarding these matters...?

[Black Crow]

I kind of wonder whether Tywin did get to KL before Ned did. It seems almost impossible.

The Trident is closer to KL than Casterly Rock is. Ned should have got there first as he had less distance to travel. Not only that, but Ned would have had a head start as he left after the battle. Tywin couldn't have left at the same time, as he hadn't even called his banners yet, and he didn't call them until he heard that Robert won the Trident. Then he called them, and marched on KL. So Ned should have had a significant head start, and he had less distance to travel. Throw that in with him personally commenting on how the Sack had no honour, and I can't help but wonder whether he wasn't a part of it.

I know we're told by many people that the Lannisters got there first, but it doesn't exactly add up.

I'm not following you here. Tywin was summoned by Aerys to help defend Kings Landing. He prudently obeyed the summons but equally prudently marched very very slowly and arrived shortly before Ned. Aerys was then persuaded to open the gates to let Tywin's "loyalists" in and save the day. Instead they sacked the place.

Traditionally if a town surrendered all would be well, but if it had to be stormed with all the concomitant casualties to the attackers then the suurvivors of the attacking force were entitled to take their revenge in an orgy of rape and pillage - conversely knowledge of this penalty was a pretty powerful incentive for surrender.

In this case however the gates were opened to Lord Tywin and his troops still sacked the place - which is why Ned comments on the lack of honour

[finger]

As master of time tables, I'd like to ask you a question.

I'm surprised with the Targaryen features of Aurane Waters, and I was wondering if he could be Viserys. It can be tested with their ages.

If AW were V, he wouldn't confess his real birthday, but rather some months difference. I'd say if the difference is higher, say a couple years, the possibility can be safely discarded.

How would you estimate the difference of ages?