R+L=J v.122

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What about Daemon and Rhaenyra?

Ah yes, whilst still married to Rhea Royce, Daemon suggested marrying Rhaenyra.

[Ygrain]

Ah yes, whilst still married to Rhea Royce, Daemon suggested marrying Rhaenyra.

I have seen people argue that they meant for Rhea to be set aside. I haven't read TPATQ myself, do you have a quote how it went?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I have seen people argue that they meant for Rhea to be set aside. I haven't read TPATQ myself, do you have a quote how it went?

There is no mention of Rhea, but imo, it wouldn't be a stretch if that's what Daemon meant by it.

King Viserys at first refused to believe a word of it until Prince Daemon himself confirmed that the tale wad true. "Give the girl to me to wife," he purportedly told his brother. "Who else would take her now?" Instead King Viserys sent him into exile, never to return to the Seven Kingdoms on pain of death.

We could add it to the OP, but if so, it should be stated that it isn't entirely clear whethet Daemon meant to remain married to Rhea as well.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I am all for "keeping it simple, stupid". So not list all the instances and possibilities and near-ocurrances in the OP, but link to the best posting that is discussing them instead.

[Ygrain]

There is no mention of Rhea, but imo, it wouldn't be a stretch if that's what Daemon meant by it.

We could add it to the OP, but if so, it should be stated that it isn't entirely clear whethet Daemon meant to remain married to Rhea as well.

Isn't there another occurence, with Rhaenyra asking the same but Viserys refusing on the grounds that Daemon is already married? It would be logical to ask that Rhea is set aside but this never happens.

But I agree, let's stick to clear-cut cases in the guide.

ETA: But perhaps it might be worth mentioning that polygamy was not common even pre-Aegon? This is stated plainly enough and pretty much beats the argument that polygamy fell out of use after Maegor when it was never particularly frequent to start with.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Isn't there another occurence, with Rhaenyra asking the same but Viserys refusing on the grounds that Daemon is already married? It would be logical to ask that Rhea is set aside but this never happens.

But I agree, let's stick to clear-cut cases in the guide.

ETA: But perhaps it might be worth mentioning that polygamy was not common even pre-Aegon? This is stated plainly enough and pretty much beats the argument that polygamy fell out of use after Maegor when it was never particularly frequent to start with.

Aenar Targaryen had multiple wives, that's certain.. Though that was before the Conquest..

I've been searching The Rogue Prince, and I think you are thinking of the same tale... The quote I provided came from Mushroom's version of events, I suspect you were thinking of this one in addition to that?

When the lovers were discovered abed together and brought before the king, Rhaenyra insisted she was in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father for leave to marry him. King Viserys would not hear of it, however, and reminded his daughter that Prince Daemon already had a wife.

This is the version of the same tale, yet as told by Septon Eustace.

Practically immediately after in the story, Daemon is send away again, and the discussion on Rhaenyra's betrothed-to-be begins.

Pre-Aegon I, it wasn't a common practise, but there were precedents.

[BearQueen87]

I know we're trying to keep it simple, but is there anyway to fit the Pact of Ice and Fire in there? I feel like that's a rather large HELLO! from the WB. Or maybe just link to a discussion of it? Have we discussed it? I feel like we did but it's getting lost in RLJ defense.

[sj4iy]

I know we're trying to keep it simple, but is there anyway to fit the Pact of Ice and Fire in there? I feel like that's a rather large HELLO! from the WB. Or maybe just link to a discussion of it? Have we discussed it? I feel like we did but it's getting lost in RLJ defense.

I think if we're going to put in detailed commentary on polygamy, that should definitely be there, somehow. Also Jaehaerys running off and marrying his sister in secret when they had been forbidden.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I know we're trying to keep it simple, but is there anyway to fit the Pact of Ice and Fire in there? I feel like that's a rather large HELLO! from the WB. Or maybe just link to a discussion of it? Have we discussed it? I feel like we did but it's getting lost in RLJ defense.

I think that is rather new... we glimpsed in TPaTQ that Starks and Targs used to be no-nonsense allies... but I found these on the web for quick reference:

• Pact of Ice and Fire - a smallish web page and

Pact of Ice and Fire - discussion thread

[Black Crow]

So far as polygamy and incest are concerned I'd suggest that the law doesn't come into it. Polygamy, incest and worse still polygamous incest all appear to be against the laws of gods and men before, during and after the Targaryen dynasty and I think it futile to look for a record or recollection of laws gainst it being repealed or re-instated.

Rather I think it comes down to the old joke of what do you call a man who is seven feet tall, built like the proverbial brick shithouse and carrying a big stick, the answer of course being - Sir.

In this case it may be forbid by law and by the faith but when a Targaryen king in possession of dragons announces an intention of marrying both of his sisters the only realistic response is to enquire how many he intends inviting to the wedding feast.

[sj4iy]

So far as polygamy and incest are concerned I'd suggest that the law doesn't come into it. Polygamy, incest and worse still polygamous incest all appear to be against the laws of gods and men before, during and after the Targaryen dynasty and I think it futile to look for a record or recollection of laws gainst it being repealed or re-instated.

Rather I think it comes down to the old joke of what do you call a man who is seven feet tall, built like the proverbial brick shithouse and carrying a big stick, the answer of course being - Sir.

In this case it may be forbid by law and by the faith but when a Targaryen king in possession of dragons announces an intention of marrying both of his sisters the only realistic response is to enquire how many he intends inviting to the wedding feast.

Actually, I agree. If someone has the power to pull something off, then questions like legality don't arise.

I think Rhaegar believed that he had the power and standing to pull it off. He very clearly thought he could depose his father, leaving him king, so legality wouldn't even come into play. Precedent is important, though, because it gives his decision some weight.

Basically, it come down to "what was his motivation?" I think that's that question we need answered most of all.

[Mithras]

There is no evidence of polygamy ever being made illegal. It is similar to the common saying “The NW takes no part” which is never stated in any laws or any vows but held unto for thousands of years traditionally.

Is there any example of a king who did something illegal at a certain period of time but when he became the king, he legalized that action?

Absofuckinlutely.

Robert was a traitor but he legalized the Rebellion after he took the IT.

So, discussing whether Jon was legitimate or not, whether polygamy was illegal or not, whether can he prove it or not etc. do not make sense. We have good reason to believe that Rhaegar was planning to overthrow Aerys and take the IT. If he succeeded, no one could have objected to him taking two wives.

Just for the sake of argument, assume that polygamy was illegal during Rhaegar’s time. One can argue that since Rhaegar never became the king, his actions were never legalized by the authority of a king. However, if Jon becomes the king, he can well legalize Rhaegar’s marriage to Lyanna.

It all comes down to whether people will want Jon as their king or not. If they want him as their king, they will not nitpick the technicalities. They will believe him when he says that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. They will not need any further evidence to prove this claim other than Jon leading the humanity to victory in the Battle for Dawn. I have been saying it for a long time that a Great Council will offer the crown to Jon and that is the only condition he can take the crown.

Imagine that in an alternative reality, Robert was exactly the same as he was except Baratheons never had any claim to the IT through Targ ancestry. After the Trident and the Sack, would he again be the king as the leader of the Rebellion?

Absofuckinlutely.

So, why did George give Baratheons a recent Targ ancestry?

Good question. One of the reasons was to give Stannis a credible but false identity of tPtwP.

BTW, Stannis does not come from Aerys/Rhaella’s line as GHH prophesized yet Aemon for a time believed that he might be the one. Seriously guys, do you really believe in Aemon’s dying rants about Dany?

Coming back to the topic, Targ grandmother of current Baratheons was not only for the purpose of creating a red herring for AAR/tPtwP.

As George said it in an SSM, Robert’s ascension to the IT was the natural course of events. He had BOTH the claim by conquest as being the leader of the Rebellion AND having the closest blood relation to the late monarchs.

This is exactly how Jon will become the king. R+L=J cannot be only about (false or true) tPtwP/AAR stuff. It has to be about succession too. Jon will have a claim to the crown by being BOTH the leader of the Battle for Dawn AND an heir to the previous monarchs. Yeah, I am talking about Aerys and Robert and Stannis.

I think Shireen will be the last Baratheon alive but as we see from previous Great Councils, people have a tendency to prefer male claimants over female claimants for the IT. And Jon will marry Shireen as Jon Targaryen to unite the best two claims. Another natural course of events.

[Ygrain]

Aenar Targaryen had multiple wives, that's certain.. Though that was before the Conquest..

I've been searching The Rogue Prince, and I think you are thinking of the same tale... The quote I provided came from Mushroom's version of events, I suspect you were thinking of this one in addition to that?

This is the version of the same tale, yet as told by Septon Eustace.

Practically immediately after in the story, Daemon is send away again, and the discussion on Rhaenyra's betrothed-to-be begins.

Pre-Aegon I, it wasn't a common practise, but there were precedents.

IMHO, both instances boil down to the same - not"set Rhea aside so that we can marry", but simply "let us marry", as if Rhea's existence was a non-issue.

Somewhere, there is a quote that when Aegon married both his sisters, it was considered unusual.

[sj4iy]

I guess we should look at this hypothetical situation:

Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married. There is undeniable proof of said marriage. Will that stop people from objecting? Of course not...there will be people who see polygamy as against the gods. What happens, though, if Jon is the one who saves the realm? What if he is TPTWP? What if he has a flaming sword and a dragon? Well, then people will start to see it differently, won't they?

Alternatively, let's say he is chosen king, and his fucks it up badly. Then people will change their minds again, won't they?

It's all about perspective, and perspective can change. If Jon is amazing leader, then people will accept that he's a true son of Rhaegar...if he screws up, they won't. Unfortunately, it will put him back in the boat of prove himself...but that seems to be his lot in life.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Is there a timeline out there that chronicles the known events between Rhaegar & Lyanna? Say from the Tournament to the Trident?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is there a timeline out there that chronicles the known events between Rhaegar & Lyanna? Say from the Tournament to the Trident?

I'm working on a pretty, detailed, overview :) I'll post here when it is done

[J. Stargaryen]

Hi, first time posting here! I do not know if this is to read too much between the lines, but in my re-reading of Got Jon tells Benjen that bastards grow faster than other children and earlier, when he's watching Joffrey, Jon says that Joffrey is taller than him and Robb, even though he is 12, while both off then are 14.

It could be a hint that Jon and Robb are legitimate children, since Joffrey is indeed a bastard?

Sorry for my English is not my mother language

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

Despite what the others said, I think this is a good catch. GRRM tells us that Joff, the bastard, has grown up faster (taller) than the two trueborn children, Robb and Jon.

[lady ginger]

Happy Holidays everyone! Just a thought here as I am reading through.....if Rhaegar was simultaneously planning to remove his father from rule and also tracking down the prophecy and needed to marry Lyanna to fulfill it with a true born son....well if he was planning on being king soon (possibly around the time frame Jon was to be born) who was going to stop the king from doing what he wanted/needed to do? Just a thought

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Ah yes, whilst still married to Rhea Royce, Daemon suggested marrying Rhaenyra.

Actually, Ygrain asked about this in the last thread, and a World book quote was provided. In the World Book, it is stated that Daemon offered to marry Rhaenyra on the condition that his earlier marriage be set aside by the king - and the king refused.

.

[lady ginger]

and I guess I didn't read through the last few posts that thoroughly because some people already said what I just said.....time for that second cup of coffee haha