Stannis/Agamemnon parallels and Shireen's fate

[Mithras]

It is wonderful irony coming from someone who base half his theories on historical repetitiveness. And as BearQueen said, difficult choices and moral dilemmas are one huge theme in ASOIAF.

No, the irony is that you oppose Sansa's return to KL because it would be repetitive but agree that repetition would be perfectly ok with Stannis.

[kimim]

I don't want to be too literal-minded, but this parallel is not working for me, as the basics don't match.

First, the motive: Agamemnon attacks Troy because its prince steals his wife. Nothing like that is going on with Stannis. The adultery in question is sister-in-law's incest, and the motive is to remove a bastard king, product of that incest.

Agamemnon attacks another kingdom to get his wife back. Stannis is fighting his own kingdom to win his own throne.

The situation with Artemis's stag which forces Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter is, again different from anything Stannis might do to Shireen. Renly is no stag sacred to the gods, and his death is not followed by pestilence and calm, forcing a daughter's sacrifice as atonement for that death. Renly's death is followed by Stannis getting enough men to be able to attack KL, where he is defeated. He then heads North, where Mel might ask for Shireen's sacrifice. If that happens, however, it won't have anything to do with atoning for Renly's death, and that kind of atonement is crucial, if you want to create a parallel between stag/daughter, and Renly/daughter.

tbh, the story of Jephthah is a closer parallel: Jephthah's brothers refuse to give him his inheritance (he's the son of a different woman) and drive him out. This is very close to how Stannis feels about his brothers, who won't give him his "inheritance," and drive him out, first to Dragonstone, then to the Wall. Hebrews then find Jephthah, and ask him to fight the Ammonites.

Ammonites were a people who were begot as a result of Lot's incest with his daughters (Stannis is fighting to take his kingdom back from the incestuous children of Cersei and Jaime).

Jephthah makes a deal with god: If he wins, he'll sacrifice the first thing he sees upon returning home as a "burnt offering." R'hllor, of course, also demands burnt offerings. Upon returning home, the first thing he sees is his daughter, who happens to be an only child, like Shireen. He sacrifices her in return for victory. Stannis might also hand his only child as a burnt offering to his god, in return for victory.

Not a great parallel, but at least we have a direct connection between daughter as burnt offering for victory, some incest, and issues with brothers.

[Frey family reunion]

... Another prophecy was derived from another miraculous event in Aulis. Once a sacrifice was offered under the boughs of a tree, a dragon crawled forth from under it and devoured the nest with 8 young birds and their mother. This was interpreted that Greeks will fight for nine years and that Troy will fall in tenth.

-snip-

Another portion of the myth is dragon coming forth from a tree after sacrifice is being offered. Now, dragon in ASOIAF is symbol of Targaryens, and the only one near it is Jon (to evade the usual detractors, OP assumes R+L=J as fact). Jon’s resurrection in front of weirwood tree is certainly a possibility. The way I would interpret the nine birds is actually dragon aka Jon coming forth to take control of them as the King of Seven Kingdoms. Ultimately, Stannis’ decision to burn Shireen could very well push Jon to actually leave Stannis’ cause and fight for himself and his right.

My guess is the dragon devouring the eight birds and their mother addresses a sacrifice of nine people including herself Melisandre will make to the nine weirwoods in the grove north of the Wall. This sacrifice will resurrect Jon (well half of Jon anyway).

Here is our first depiction of the weirwood grove, note Jon's reaction:

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath,

Later we come across the heart tree in Whitetree and we learn that sacrifices are made to the trees through fire:

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face... the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

We learn that the first thing Melisandre looks for when she peers into her flames is any danger to herself:

Melisandre paid the naked steel no mind. If the wildling had meant her harm, she would have seen it in her flames. Danger to her own person was the first thing she had learned to see, back when she was still half a child, a slave girl bound for life to the great red temple. It was still the first thing she looked for whenever she gazed into a fire.

When she next looks into the fire here is the first thing she sees:

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood.

This is a vision she has seen before and she describes it (at least what she thinks the vision means to Jon:

Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets weeping blood.

However, Melisandre is mistaken, the nine eyeless faces with sockets weeping blood are not the rangers, they are the nine wierwoods. This is the first thing she sees when she gazes into the fire because this is the greatest danger to her person. I believe she is slated to be one of the nine sacrifices (the mother bird in your OP) which is burned to wake unJon (or as I like to refer to it, the blade without the hilt, but that is a theory for another day).

[MizasterJ]

I can roll with this. Everyone thinks Mel will sac Shireen to the dismay of Stannis but I can see Stannis actually giving final approval and Jon being the dragon Shireen sees eating her in her dreams. Jon will be the dragon that Stannis awakens from stone (not sure what would represent stone other than Shireen's greyscale). Making Stannis AA,Shireen= Nissa Nissa, and Jon Lightbringer. I like it.

any way u flip it, I def see Shireen being sacrificed. The HBO show is really hinting at it.

[MizasterJ]

an interesting side not that may also be related / foreshadowing when Agememnon slayed the sacred stag he was cursed with a plauge (greyscale anyone?) To get rid of the plauge he saced his daughter but, someone saved her (davos, jon?) and made an alternate sacrafice. This is too conincidental to ignore.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Stannis resembles the last hero to me more than anyone else roaming through the snow while his guys drop like flies

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

an interesting side not that may also be related / foreshadowing when Agememnon slayed the sacred stag he was cursed with a plauge (greyscale anyone?) To get rid of the plauge he saced his daughter but, someone saved her (davos, jon?) and made an alternate sacrafice. This is too conincidental to ignore.

Really enjoy this thread nice work guys this is a great post

[BearQueen87]

tbh, the story of Jephthah is a closer parallel: Jephthah's brothers refuse to give him his inheritance (he's the son of a different woman) and drive him out. This is very close to how Stannis feels about his brothers, who won't give him his "inheritance," and drive him out, first to Dragonstone, then to the Wall. Hebrews then find Jephthah, and ask him to fight the Ammonites.

Ammonites were a people who were begot as a result of Lot's incest with his daughters (Stannis is fighting to take his kingdom back from the incestuous children of Cersei and Jaime).

Jephthah makes a deal with god: If he wins, he'll sacrifice the first thing he sees upon returning home as a "burnt offering." R'hllor, of course, also demands burnt offerings. Upon returning home, the first thing he sees is his daughter, who happens to be an only child, like Shireen. He sacrifices her in return for victory. Stannis might also hand his only child as a burnt offering to his god, in return for victory.

Not a great parallel, but at least we have a direct connection between daughter as burnt offering for victory, some incest, and issues with brothers.

Nice catch because yes, for sure. I did a quick search and found this

The story of Jephthah's daughter is also sometimes compared to that of Agamemnon's daughter Iphigenia. In his play "Jephthas sive votum - Jeptha or the Vow", the Scottish scholar and dramatist George Buchanan (1506–1582) called Jephthah's daughter "Iphis", obviously alluding to Iphigenia,^[16] and Handel's 1751 oratorio, Jephtha, based on Buchanan's play, uses the same name

X

[Ygrain]

Nice catch because yes, for sure. I did a quick search and found this

X

There are even further, less clear parallels, suggesting some very old common basis of the stories: in various fairy tales, we see the motive of sacrificing "the first thing you meet" (or "what you don't know of") to some supernatural entity in exchange for help. The thing is invariably a child and it is claimed by the entity for service, from which it later escapes.

[Mithras]

There are even further, less clear parallels, suggesting some very old common basis of the stories: in various fairy tales, we see the motive of sacrificing "the first thing you meet" (or "what you don't know of") to some supernatural entity in exchange for help. The thing is invariably a child and it is claimed by the entity for service, from which it later escapes.

An important point. The child survives in most of the tales. See Abraham and Isaac.

[Ygrain]

An important point. The child survives in most of the tales. See Abraham and Isaac.

Not through the will of the father, though.

[Jankmaster]

One thing I want to make certain of, did Stannis officially give the order to burn Storm? Like, have pyres ready and set up official? Davos believes that Stannis will do it eventually, which is telling, but did he give the command?

[Mithras]

The fact that Patchface is completely missing in this scenario should make us doubt this theory. I can understand the foreboding about Shireen but why do people exclude Patchface in their scenarios? Don't you find it curious that George depicted him basically as Cetus?

Not through the will of the father, though.

True. A third party was involved.

[Beanis Buttershield]

Cool ideas, you're certainly on the right path with the parallels you're drawing.

When you mentioned Stannis burning Shireen I thought of something terrible; what happens when you burn someone afflicted by greyscale? I have a feeling the greyscale will only make her suffering much worse. We know that Tyrion tested for greyscale by pricking his fingers with a sharp knife. That makes sense.. try to cut a stone with a knife and the knife will break first.... but burn that same stone with the power of R'hllor's flames... :uhoh:

Picturing the scene is entertaining enough. Even if it doesn't end up happening thanks for the imagery :laugh:

[The Drunkard]

One thing I want to make certain of, did Stannis officially give the order to burn Storm? Like, have pyres ready and set up official? Davos believes that Stannis will do it eventually, which is telling, but did he give the command?

No. Stannis is still arguing with Melisandre immediately before Davos confronts him with Edric. It was preemptive on Davos' part.

[RainGhost]

I'm not Stannis ' s biggest fan but even I can recognise that he's fundamentally a good person. I can imagine a scenario where he's faced with this choice but I can't see him actually agreeing to it. I don't believe he would have murdered Edric Storm, so I don't believe he'd murder his own daughter. He's a just man and just men do not murder innocent children. He's also still quite cynical, so I don't think he would risk murdering his daughter on the off chance that a dragon awakens. On a more practical note, Shireen is his only heir.

[Mladen]

I don't want to be too literal-minded, but this parallel is not working for me, as the basics don't match.

snip the cool stuff

Not a great parallel, but at least we have a direct connection between daughter as burnt offering for victory, some incest, and issues with brothers.

I wasn't aiming exactly at Stannis/Agamemnon parallel as much as the sole inspiration for this theory has been the myth. I wanted a bit broader approach. Also, as I said in OP, these things can be tricky, and that is why I really like that debate has gone in the course of possibilities and thematic parallels, instead of whether I am right or wrong. I do see some choices in front of Stannis, I find the whole deal with sacrificing for the greater good a theme in his arc. Which ultimately is the reason for this theory.

Finally, thanks for broader approach and offering extended opinion and possibilities.

My guess is the dragon devouring the eight birds and their mother addresses a sacrifice of nine people including herself Melisandre will make to the nine weirwoods in the grove north of the Wall. This sacrifice will resurrect Jon (well half of Jon anyway).

Nice. BTW; the weirwood ring is for many of us significant in some way. The sacrifice inside weirwood ring or Jon's resurrection is indeed possibility. Actually many have argued so.

Making Stannis AA,Shireen= Nissa Nissa, and Jon Lightbringer. I like it.

I am not aiming at Stannis being AA and Shireen his Nissa Nissa. I am just thematically connecting sacrificing the beloved one for the greater good. Something Stannis is most definitely capable of.

I'm not Stannis ' s biggest fan but even I can recognise that he's fundamentally a good person. I can imagine a scenario where he's faced with this choice but I can't see him actually agreeing to it. I don't believe he would have murdered Edric Storm, so I don't believe he'd murder his own daughter. He's a just man and just men do not murder innocent children. He's also still quite cynical, so I don't think he would risk murdering his daughter on the off chance that a dragon awakens. On a more practical note, Shireen is his only heir.

That is why I introduced the greyscale scenario. Stannis is indeed fundamentally a good person, but sacrificing Shireen wouldn't be, or at least for me, some sign of his malice. If we come to that point, I believe that Stannis will face a huge moral dilemma. What to do? Save a kingdom, or his own daughter? Should he allow a plague when possibility is to kill his daughter? This isn't so black and white, and I sincerely think that he would be crushed by this. So, as someone said, this isn't comparable with Cersei who would without a doubt burn Seven Kingdoms for her children, but the choice of a man with deep understanding of what his duty is.

[addicted to snow]

Stannis/Mel have already sacrificed someone to the flames in order to get favorable winds to carry them to EastWatch... This is a definite Parallel to Agamemnon...

I suppose it could happen again...

[BearQueen87]

An important point. The child survives in most of the tales. See Abraham and Isaac.

Unless GRRM intends to insert actual "God" into this, then it won't likely take that route.

I suppose "magic" could stand in, but it doesn't seem to play sides since it's not any sort of conscience entity.

The fact that Patchface is completely missing in this scenario should make us doubt this theory. I can understand the foreboding about Shireen but why do people exclude Patchface in their scenarios? Don't you find it curious that George depicted him basically as Cetus?

Like I said above GRRM doesn't need to stick just to one myth. He can combine various facets of many myths: Agememnon, Perseus, Jappeth...

[Hrafntýr]

In Euripedes, the story becomes very much about Iphigenia. In Iphigenia at Aulis, he gives us an Iphigenia who willingly sacrifices herself; I could easily see Shireen making such a decision, dutiful child that she is.

But possibly relevant to the discussion here is what Iphigenia does in Iphigenia at Tauris. Although her sacrifice on the shore has already linked Iphigenia to the sea, in this play the sea-salt imagery comes to the fore. Now a priestess of Artemis, Iphigenia uses the language of pollution and contamination, and the purifying power of seawater, to effect an escape for herself and her brother. Under the guise of removing Orestes' contamination/miasma (she says to the onlookers "Men who want wives, women who want children/Avoid contagion, keep away, keep away!") she leads him, his friend Pylades and herself out into the sea, because as per Iliad 1, seawater can make a victim purified for sacrifice. But in the play, a ship awaits to rescue them. [Davos has already used a waiting ship to rescue Edric, who was also to be sacrificed.]

I guess that I can't help but to wonder if we might not see a Shireen who agrees to her own sacrifice, only to be elevated to a more powerful position, possibly a ritual one associated with death and sacrifice, like Iphigenia's role at Tauris. And Shireen is connected to two figures associated with the sea, Davos and Patchface, and we've got the ominous "dead things in the water." I don't at all have a theory here, I was just throwing in some other aspects of the Iphigenia mythos that seemed to have potential connection to Shireen's story.