Stannis/Agamemnon parallels and Shireen's fate

[EternET]

https://youtu.be/NfLScJVXBHQ?t=1m34s

It seems it isn't a "stretch" from the showrunners. Now would it be for the same reasons towards the same effect ?

Also in "Iphygenia"'s case, it was just enough to "please" the winds so they could depart, it required much MUCH more to win the war of Troy.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Another portion of the myth is dragon coming forth from a tree after sacrifice is being offered. Now, dragon in ASOIAF is symbol of Targaryens, and the only one near it is Jon (to evade the usual detractors, OP assumes R+L=J as fact). Jon’s resurrection in front of weirwood tree is certainly a possibility. The way I would interpret the nine birds is actually dragon aka Jon coming forth to take control of them as the King of Seven Kingdoms. Ultimately, Stannis’ decision to burn Shireen could very well push Jon to actually leave Stannis’ cause and fight for himself and his right.

In conclusion, this crackpot theory is based on some parallels between Stannis and Agamemnon and on Stannis’ character as uncompromising, just man capable of going to extremes for the greater good. Whether I am right or wrong, time will tell. But, at the moment, we can discuss the possibility of such scenario.

Well it seems after tonights Show episode this may have some truth in it, people often talk about show anbooks being different but going by the HBO's "inside E9" seems GRRM made the suggestion so thank you for this thread which delves in history and mythology behind GRRM's reason for including this

The bottom part in particular is interesting, everyone seems to have an idea in mind that Mel will do a Thoros to Jon at the Wall, but obviously int he show Mel is with Stannis at Winterfell so this can't happen. I had started to theorise that Bran may play a role in resurrecting Jon but this has helped clarify it, eg some people seem to think Theon will be burned to help Stannis get to Winterfell after the battle of the Ice Lake but I am now wondering if Stannis sacrificinsg Theon before the Heart Tree will be an Old Gods Kings blood sacrifice powerful enough to help resurrect Jon?

[Iron Stag]

How come I didn't see this thread earlier? If discussion (hopefully) hasn't died out, I'd like to chime in with some of my thoughts on this.

This would be the right time to insert a quote from a wise man:

So they will not love, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.. ... What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy

It's an interesting recurring theme in the series protecting the loved ones vs doing your duty. And here love prevails for even an ever-honourable Ned Stark readily committed high treason for his love of Lyanna, or confessed to one to protect Sansa. Will Stannis' case be different? I hop not I quite like Shireen.

And there's always the case of classic I'm all pro-action, but not in my backyard mentality. People will cheer for changes which would benefit greater good, and will stop when they learn these changes will negatively affect them. In a way, it was easy for Stannis for sacrifice Edric, but will he so readily sacrifice his own daughter, maybe the only person he loves in the entire world?

However, you do present some very interesting Stannis-Agamemnon parallels, so let's assume the theory is correct. I'd like to add up on something IIRC Ygrain noted that Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter eventually led to his downfall. His wife Clytemnestra, loyal and obedient to far, plotted his death upon his return home. If we're trying to find character-parallel to Clytemnestra,I wonder would Davos not be better choice than Selyse? Selyse is not a best example here she's utterly obsessed with religious fanaticism, and I'd wager she's way more loyal to Mel and R'hllor than to Stannis. I remember Jon noting she would willingly step into flames at Mel's command, so it's not that big of a stretch to assume she woulnd't object to sacrificing her daughter. Ergo, not the best Clytemnestra parallel.

That's where Davos comes in. Someone who was unquestioningly loyal to Stannis so far, sane and sound advisor, might suddenly start questioning is children-killing king still worth serving (we know his stance about Edric). Just like how Agamemnon's sacrifice of Ifigenia made Clytemnestra think he's as good as dead.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. Greek mythology is always an interesting topic to discuss.

Clytemestra was never loyal to Agamemnon. She cheated on him for 10 years and planned to kill him for years.

[Knight Of Winter]

Clytemestra was never loyal to Agamemnon. She cheated on him for 10 years and planned to kill him for years.

Yes, she started cheating and planning his murder only after Agamemnon sacrificed Ifigenia. Those 10 years you speak of is the duration of Trojan War.

[Iron Stag]

Yes, she started cheating and planning his murder only after Agamemnon sacrificed Ifigenia. Those 10 years you speak of is the duration of Trojan War.

I'm aware, it's just not a good example. Clytemnestra took the slight and pretended to be loyal for the next 10 years. She was never loyal though.

The better example is Achilles and Agamemnon where Achilles immediately stopped paying homage to Agamemnon upon being insulted. Agamemnon did something that was wrong so Achilles stopped following him. Clytemnestra on the other hand publicly kept following Agamemnon for a decade, so it doesn't work that she would be Davos to Stannis. If Stannis burned Shireen, he'd immediately stop following (IMO) Stannis like Achilles did.

[SeanF]

A closer parallel is 2 Kings 3 v 27. The King of Moab burned his own son and heir alive, when the battle was going against him, and achieved victory as a result.

[Mladen]

A closer parallel is 2 Kings 3 v 27. The King of Moab burned his own son and heir alive, when the battle was going against him, and achieved victory as a result.

Closer parallel to what the show gave us. Not sure that the show and books will be the same on this issue.

[Annarkie]

How come I didn't see this thread earlier? If discussion (hopefully) hasn't died out, I'd like to chime in with some of my thoughts on this.

This would be the right time to insert a quote from a wise man:

So they will not love, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.. ... What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy

It's an interesting recurring theme in the series – protecting the loved ones vs doing your duty. And here love prevails – for even an ever-honourable Ned Stark readily committed high treason for his love of Lyanna, or confessed to one to protect Sansa. Will Stannis' case be different? I hop not – I quite like Shireen.

And there's always the case of classic I'm all pro-action, but not in my backyard mentality. People will cheer for changes which would benefit greater good, and will stop when they learn these changes will negatively affect them. In a way, it was „easy“ for Stannis for sacrifice Edric, but will he so readily sacrifice his own daughter, maybe the only person he loves in the entire world?

However, you do present some very interesting Stannis-Agamemnon parallels, so let's assume the theory is correct. I'd like to add up on something IIRC Ygrain noted – that Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter eventually led to his downfall. His wife Clytemnestra, loyal and obedient to far, plotted his death upon his return home. If we're trying to find character-parallel to Clytemnestra,I wonder would Davos not be better choice than Selyse? Selyse is not a best example here – she's utterly obsessed with religious fanaticism, and I'd wager she's way more loyal to Mel and R'hllor than to Stannis. I remember Jon noting she would willingly step into flames at Mel's command, so it's not that big of a stretch to assume she woulnd't object to sacrificing her daughter. Ergo, not the best Clytemnestra parallel.

That's where Davos comes in. Someone who was unquestioningly loyal to Stannis so far, sane and sound advisor, might suddenly start questioning is children-killing king still worth serving (we know his stance about Edric). Just like how Agamemnon's sacrifice of Ifigenia made Clytemnestra think he's as good as dead.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. Greek mythology is always an interesting topic to discuss.

I agree. Only the burning of Shireen could make Davos turn on Stannis and after so many books building up Davos's loyalty, his ditching Stannis is going to have a LOT of impact.

[Knight Of Winter]

Whaddya know? :P Huffingtonpost just published similar-sounding theory: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/10/game-of-thrones-theory_n_7548068.html?1433966090&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[Mladen]

Whaddya know? :P Huffingtonpost just published similar-sounding theory: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/10/game-of-thrones-theory_n_7548068.html?1433966090&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

I had no idea that this theory was so well-established in the fandom until this episode... :dunno:

[Han Snow]

Well congrats on being right on the money! I guess... Poor Shireen.

[Mladen]

Well congrats on being right on the money! I guess... Poor Shireen.

Yeah... This is one of those theories you want to be wrong about. Although I believe that the setting will be significantly different in the series than on the TV show.

[NotSoSilentSister]

More convoluted Ragnorak/Greek Mythos theories...

(don tinfoil)

Actually, I don't think it's all that convoluted this time. OP's just trying to extrapolate one character arc/plot point, not the entire end-game and the Stannis/Agammenon-analogy is indeed hard to miss.

I could sadly see things getting desperate enough for Stannis to sacrifice Shireen, and if that happens it's likely to have an effect on Jon. Where I don't quite follow is the "devouring the nest with the mother => ruling the seven Kingdoms"-bit. Devouring babies and their mother to me sounds a bit more sinister than that. People have been speculating that Jon2.0 might come back grimmer and darker, so I just hope that's where the parallells end.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I'm aware, it's just not a good example. Clytemnestra took the slight and pretended to be loyal for the next 10 years. She was never loyal though.

She wasn't loyal during those 10 years, but it doesn't follow that she was never loyal before. Your husband killing your child is a slight worth taking, I would argue. I'm not quite sure how hubby would still deserve any loyality after that. It wasn't exactly a joint decision.

[Grissom]

He won't do it in the books. Someone might sacrifice her, but it's not him.

[NotSoSilentSister]

He won't do it in the books. Someone might sacrifice her, but it's not him.

Then he will have to do something else to lose Davos' and Jon's loyality in the books. (Or get killed off in some battle without making it to the end-game, I guess). But once the final battle lines are drawn, it's very hard to imagine those three on the same side in the show now, and I assume that's one of the things where the showrunners stick to the outline. Again, assuming Stannis makes it that far, of course.

There's still the possibility that he just bites it in the Battle of Ice in the books and it's all Selyse's and Mel's doing afterwards, but somehow I've always pictured Stannis making it to the climactic fight.

[haemonculus]

He won't do it in the books. Someone might sacrifice her, but it's not him.

I would not put money on that, if I were you. Battle goes south, he could simply send a raven to the wall or something.

For all we know he could be in an agreement with Mel not to do it, as long as he does not condone it. One raven with the message "Do it!" and poor Shireen is a goner.

The show creators are often slandered for hating Stannis, and them knowing what he eventually does, would explain why they portrayed him that way.

And all that aside, I feel intuitively that that change would simply be too drastic to make, just for shock value.

[Ygrain]

How come I didn't see this thread earlier? If discussion (hopefully) hasn't died out, I'd like to chime in with some of my thoughts on this.

This would be the right time to insert a quote from a wise man:

So they will not love, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.. ... What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy

It's an interesting recurring theme in the series – protecting the loved ones vs doing your duty. And here love prevails – for even an ever-honourable Ned Stark readily committed high treason for his love of Lyanna, or confessed to one to protect Sansa. Will Stannis' case be different? I hop not – I quite like Shireen.

And there's always the case of classic I'm all pro-action, but not in my backyard mentality. People will cheer for changes which would benefit greater good, and will stop when they learn these changes will negatively affect them. In a way, it was „easy“ for Stannis for sacrifice Edric, but will he so readily sacrifice his own daughter, maybe the only person he loves in the entire world?

However, you do present some very interesting Stannis-Agamemnon parallels, so let's assume the theory is correct. I'd like to add up on something IIRC Ygrain noted – that Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter eventually led to his downfall. His wife Clytemnestra, loyal and obedient to far, plotted his death upon his return home. If we're trying to find character-parallel to Clytemnestra,I wonder would Davos not be better choice than Selyse? Selyse is not a best example here – she's utterly obsessed with religious fanaticism, and I'd wager she's way more loyal to Mel and R'hllor than to Stannis. I remember Jon noting she would willingly step into flames at Mel's command, so it's not that big of a stretch to assume she woulnd't object to sacrificing her daughter. Ergo, not the best Clytemnestra parallel.

That's where Davos comes in. Someone who was unquestioningly loyal to Stannis so far, sane and sound advisor, might suddenly start questioning is children-killing king still worth serving (we know his stance about Edric). Just like how Agamemnon's sacrifice of Ifigenia made Clytemnestra think he's as good as dead.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. Greek mythology is always an interesting topic to discuss.

TA but honestly, I don't remember myself whether this was my own thought :-) I do recall the topic discussed and it is a pretty intriguing test of Stannis' mettles as well as those following and trusting in him, and I think that you're right about the effect on Davos.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I can already see the bittersweet ending being House Baratheon's extinction... it can get very poetic for me, because it's my favourite house and they die out before the books end (minus the bastars) as i "die" closing the books in the end... the baratheons will make us company when we close Asoiaf's story... like us, they will departure...

Of course, then other external books, like the Grimarillion might happen but Asoiaf will end...

The song wil end, and so do the composers of it (that's because i think the Baratheons were the catalists of the story, not even being the main characters nor the Pov's)

[KnightTime]

He is ausurper just like his brothers.

Jon targaryen and his hand Davos Will claim the throne.