Stannis/Agamemnon parallels and Shireen's fate

[Mladen]

By Clytemnestra's action, though, Agammemnon's victory turned hollow. Adding to it the Melisandre/Cassandra (now, is the similarity of the names coincidental?) parallel, I don't think this bodes good for Stannis and Shireen... :-(

Probably not coincidental. There are some other parallels as well, apart from the obvious visions and prophetic inclinations. Cassandra is said to have gotten her gift from Apollo (god of the sun, heat and light and prophecy) after either refusing to spend the night with him OR falling asleep in his temple and gaining knowledge (cause snakes whispered to her). We know Mel was probably sold to a temple as a young girl and instructed in the ways of the Red God (god of light). Are there any snake references to Mel just out of curiosity...?

This is why I like the forums... As restricted as my knowledge is, there will always be smarter people to continue the work... :)

[Mithras]

According to the myth, AA killed his wife, not his daughter. I think Selyse is more likely to be bonfired than Shireen. But first things first: I think Gerrick Kingsblood is the first to go. What an unfortunate surname to bear around Mel. I do not know what will be the purpose of his burning. But at one point, when Dany comes, Mel will convince Stannis to wake dragons from stone" by burning someone with great importance. Of course, "waking dragons from stone" will be Mel's summoning of a shadow dragon with icy breath using the blood sacrifice.

I do no exclude the fact that Selyse might attempt to do some crazy shit involving Shireen in the absence of Stannis. However, I think Shireen will be the parallel to Andromeda to Jon's Perseus. Patchface will be Cetus the sea monster. Remember how many times Jeor asked Jon whether Jpn had winged horses?

I do not get surprised if George twists this parallel and makes Cetus the good guy in which case the family of Andromeda become the real monsters.

[Mladen]

According to the myth, AA killed his wife, not his daughter.

No where is stated that Shireen will be Nissa Nissa to Stannis' AAR.

[alienarea]

About a year, I stunned people on a thread about Shireens fate when I talked about possibility that Stannis might sacrifice her for the greater good. The argument I think I have found during my research for Animal project is a parallel with the Greek myth of Agamemnon and Iphigenia, which transfers to Stannis and Shireen.

Before I start, allow me to start with some disclaimers. First and foremost is the usage of external material in order to predict the events in future installments. We have spoken quite a lot on this board about historical and mythological influences in ASOIAF. From the worlds mythologies, over Arthurian legend to Tolkiens opus, we have argued basically everything. And while my opinion is that Martin does use certain symbols, motives etc. he is not writing ASOIAF as an ode to any particular myth. That said, if something happened in Ragnarok or Arthurian legend, there is no certainty it will happen in ASOIAF. Furthermore, we should always have the narrative, characters paths and progress and Martins writing in mind. That is why the idea that Jaime Lannister is Azor Ahai Reborn based on what happened in Ragnarok is so fallible.

So the question that one can ask is why this would be any different. Well, despite my understanding of how Martin incorporates certain elements of history and mythology, I believe there is, not only thematic, but very logical parallel between Stannis and Agamemnon. The parallel I am arguing for is drawn with full understanding who Stannis is, having in mind his psyche, struggles, ideologies etc. I also came up with this theory caring that theory fits with the rest of the story. Therefore I am comfortable enough to present you with my personal favorite crackpot that this cracked head of mine came up with.

I will start with some other, less noticeable parallels between Stannis and Agamemnon. The entire conflict of War of 5 Kings, which is the most important conflict in Stannis life, originates in the adultery of his brothers wife. This parallels with how Agamemnon used the adultery of Helen and her escape with Paris to start a war against Troy. Furthermore, in Iliad, Agamemnon is compared with the stag by Achilles, which is comparable with Baratheon coat of arms being the crowned stag. But, now we will focus on the myth of Iphigenias death.

After Helen escaped for Troy, Agamemnon summoned entire Greek fleet to wage a war against Trojans. They have met at Argos where Agamemnon was chosen as the commander of entire fleet. After 2 years of preparation, fleet gathered at the port of Aulis in Boeotia. According to legend, Agamemnon killed a stag sacred to the goddess Artemis. In rage, Artemis cursed the Greek with a pestilence and perfect calm so the ships were unable to leave the port. After consulting with the seers, Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia to atone his sin. Some versions say that Iphigenia was truly sacrificed, but some say Artemis took her to Tauris and another sacrifice was offered in her place. Whatever the case was, Iphigenia was considered gone from that moment. Another prophecy was derived from another miraculous event in Aulis. Once a sacrifice was offered under the boughs of a tree, a dragon crawled forth from under it and devoured the nest with 8 young birds and their mother. This was interpreted that Greeks will fight for nine years and that Troy will fall in tenth.

Now, transferring the motive in ASOIAF goes this way. Stannis, whom we parallel with Agamemnon, had killed Renly, who would be a stag of this story. Placing Renly as a stag is logical. Renlys banner was golden Baratheon stag, and in dreams of Ghost of High heart, he is represented as a stag. Stannis committing this murder, conscious or not, can be considered as a grievance against the Gods given that kinslaying is seen as one of the worst possible crimes in Westeros. And now we enter the part of speculations and theory. As mentioned above, seer declared that Iphigenia must be sacrificed and Agamemnon acted upon. Given Melisandres influence over Stannis and her persuasive powers, I see Melisandre convincing Stannis to sacrifice Shireen for whatever greater good Melisandre presents in front of Stannis. The question that immediately rises is what Stannis would do in such situation. The answer is actually why this theory works in some twisted way.

Well, Stannis considers his quest for the crown as saving entire humanity. He is named as Azor Ahai reborn, Prince that was promised, savior of the world. Even though Stannis religious beliefs are of contractual nature with Rhllor, one cant deny that Stannis indeed carries the weight of the world upon his shoulders. We clearly see that when the life of Edric Storm is at stake. He doesnt want to kill the boy, he abhors the idea, but his cold logic is overwhelming: If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark Sacrifice is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.

The line itself is incredibly ominous, and extremely sinister. We are certainly at the place where this kind of sacrifice would cause incredible dilemma with having possible greyscale outbreak or invasion of Others. Stannis is indeed more independent of Melisandre, but without his proverbial angel in Davos nearby him, a strong argument can be made in favor of him sacrificing his daughter for greater good. The moral dilemma that would eat Stannis from inside, his just nature and the burden he carries all can actually be the reason for Stannis to actually do this.

The point of sacrifice wasnt atonement as much as the way of achieving certain goal. Agamemnon wanted his army to come to Troy, as Stannis would want some miraculous solution to his growing problems, whether we talk about Others invasion or possible grayscale outbreak. The sacrifice is therefore a step of getting solution to a difficult situation.

Another portion of the myth is dragon coming forth from a tree after sacrifice is being offered. Now, dragon in ASOIAF is symbol of Targaryens, and the only one near it is Jon (to evade the usual detractors, OP assumes R+L=J as fact). Jons resurrection in front of weirwood tree is certainly a possibility. The way I would interpret the nine birds is actually dragon aka Jon coming forth to take control of them as the King of Seven Kingdoms. Ultimately, Stannis decision to burn Shireen could very well push Jon to actually leave Stannis cause and fight for himself and his right.

In conclusion, this crackpot theory is based on some parallels between Stannis and Agamemnon and on Stannis character as uncompromising, just man capable of going to extremes for the greater good. Whether I am right or wrong, time will tell. But, at the moment, we can discuss the possibility of such scenario.

Merry Christmas, but no.

Agamemnon was more of a king than Stannis ever will be. He had three children, one of them a son, sacrificing one daughter is less of a deal for him. Agamemnon offered her to Achilles as a bride before, he is much more ruthless than Stannis.

You could compare Stannis to my neighbor as well, he also has a wife and a daughter.

[BearQueen87]

This is why I like the forums... As restricted as my knowledge is, there will always be smarter people to continue the work... :)

Just one more tiny thing. In Mel's POV when she is looking into her flames, it's described as "an agony and an ecstasy." In Cassandra's famous "mad scene" from the play Agememnon, this is part of her speech while Apollo is showing her what is to come

Ah, ah! Oh, oh, the agony! Once more the dreadful throes of true prophecy whirl and distract me with their ill-boding onset. Do you see them there—sitting before the house—young creatures like phantoms of dreams?

(1214-1219)

Obviously you've got agony there, but "throes" is often used for both good and ecstatic pleasure.

According to the myth, AA killed his wife, not his daughter. I think Selyse is more likely to be bonfired than Shireen. But first things first: I think Gerrick Kingsblood is the first to go. What an unfortunate surname to bear around Mel. I do not know what will be the purpose of his burning. But at one point, when Dany comes, Mel will convince Stannis to wake dragons from stone" by burning someone with great importance. Of course, "waking dragons from stone" will be Mel's summoning of a shadow dragon with icy breath using the blood sacrifice.

I do no exclude the fact that Selyse might attempt to do some crazy shit involving Shireen in the absence of Stannis. However, I think Shireen will be the parallel to Andromeda to Jon's Perseus. Patchface will be Cetus the sea monster. Remember how many times Jeor asked Jon whether Jpn had winged horses?

I do not get surprised if George twists this parallel and makes Cetus the good guy in which case the family of Andromeda become the real monsters.

There's nothing to say that GRRM has to stick to one myth, though. He could combine many for his own tale. Jon has to come back to himself first and yes, he would try to stop the burning of Shireen (slight irony if you're right about Andromeda and Persus...that story is where we get the "princess being saved by a knight from a fearsome dragon" trope), but the twist could be that Jon (and Davos) fail to save Shireen from Mel and Stannis and Selyse.

[Avlonnic]

About a year, I stunned people on a thread about Shireen’s fate when I talked about possibility that Stannis might sacrifice her “for the greater good”. The argument I think I have found during my research for Animal project is a parallel with the Greek myth of

According to legend, Agamemnon killed a stag sacred to the goddess Artemis. In rage, Artemis cursed the Greek with a pestilence and perfect calm so the ships were unable to leave the port. After consulting with the seers, Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia to atone his sin.

Now, transferring the motive in ASOIAF goes this way. Stannis, whom we parallel with Agamemnon, had killed Renly, who would be a stag of this story. Placing Renly as a stag is logical. Renly’s banner was golden Baratheon stag, and in dreams of Ghost of High heart, he is represented as a stag. Stannis committing this murder, conscious or not, can be considered as a grievance against theWe clearly see that when the life of Edric Storm is at stake. He doesn’t want to kill the boy, he abhors the idea, but his cold logic is overwhelming: If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.

<snip>

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing these insights. I learn so much on these boards!

<snip> But first things first: I think Gerrick Kingsblood is the first to go. What an unfortunate surname to bear around Mel.

Hahahahaha! So true.

[markg171]

Interesting theory but I do have one issue with it. I would say that Mel at this point (as in end of ADWD) is less sure about who Azor Ahai

From the Mel chapter:

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

Capital letter S - that must be significant. I don't think Mel at least still believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai and will not be asking Stannis to sacrifice Shireen. I do think that Shireen will be sacrificed but not by Stannis nor for him.

Despite Mel's boast that she is the best among R'hllor's faith at reading the flames, she's clearly not. So it's hard to take any of her visions seriously while guys like Moqorro have yet to be wrong.

[Mladen]

Despite Mel's boast that she is the best among R'hllor's faith at reading the flames, she's clearly not. So it's hard to take any of her visions seriously while guys like Moqorro have yet to be wrong.

Mel's visions are not wrong. Her interpretations are. There is a significant difference.

[markg171]

Mel's visions are not wrong. Her interpretations are. There is a significant difference.

But that was my point. She says she's the best at interpreting the visions. We know she's not.

[Mladen]

But that was my point. She says she's the best at interpreting the visions. We know she's not.

The difference is that in Moqorro's case, we even hear exactly what he saw, and with Mel we later find out what she has seen and what she thought it meant. She is fallible, just as anyone who has tried to analyze the prophecies. Just look at Cersei. Or Rhaegar.

[Avlonnic]

Poor Shireen. Most speculation casts that unfortunate child as doomed. In this scenario, we are faced with the theme of meaningful sacrifice (as we see in the HoBW); sacrifice doesn't mean anything unless it is painful. Also, with apologies to another cinematic classic, we ponder the veracity of the adage: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one." One might think it would be noble for Stannis to sacrifice Shireen for the realm. How many people would sacrifice their child for the lives of people unknown to them? Can you imagine Cersei agreeing to sacrifice Tommen and Myrcella for the hordes of folks in Kings Landing? She seemingly would lose no sleep over burning every child in the realm to protect her own.

Sacrificing oneself is very different from sacrificing an innocent child. For instance, I quite admire Squire Dalbridge for remaining behind to fight Rattleshirt's wildlings to buy time for Qhorin and Jon. However, I could not admire him if he had burned a baby or a child so that the NW brothers could escape. When Stannis asked Davos what the life of one bastard boy was against the many lives of the realm, Davos responded, "Everything." I believe Davos had the right of it. I think Ned would agree.

[Mladen]

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing these insights. I learn so much on these boards!

Thank you so much... Glad you liked it.

Poor Shireen. Most speculation casts that unfortunate child as doomed. In this scenario, we are faced with the theme of meaningful sacrifice (as we see in the HoBW); sacrifice doesn't mean anything unless it is painful. Also, with apologies to another cinematic classic, we ponder the veracity of the adage: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one." One might think it would be noble for Stannis to sacrifice Shireen for the realm. How many people would sacrifice their child for the lives of people unknown to them? Can you imagine Cersei agreeing to sacrifice Tommen and Myrcella for the hordes of folks in Kings Landing? She seemingly would lose no sleep over burning every child in the realm to protect her own.

Wonderful comparison and juxtaposition of Cersei and Stannis actually allows us to see what a serious moral dilemma would it be for Stannis. I never actually argued that Stannis would kill Shireen, but that he would feel obligated to sacrifice her to save millions. This is a man who, in a way, thinks of himself as a hero and he tries to do his best. That is why when we see difference between what he and Cersei would have done, we see that this case is not some heartless murder but downright tough choice. This theory's origin is partially in my opinion that Stannis will undoubtedly face certain dilemmas and decisions with regard to Melisandre and the whole AAR deal. Add the greyscale factor to it, and you have a deadly combo.

[markg171]

Thank you so much... Glad you liked it.

Wonderful comparison and juxtaposition of Cersei and Stannis actually allows us to see what a serious moral dilemma would it be for Stannis. I never actually argued that Stannis would kill Shireen, but that he would feel obligated to sacrifice her to save millions. This is a man who, in a way, thinks of himself as a hero and he tries to do his best. That is why when we see difference between what he and Cersei would have done, we see that this case is not some heartless murder but downright tough choice. This theory's origin is partially in my opinion that Stannis will undoubtedly face certain dilemmas and decisions with regard to Melisandre and the whole AAR deal. Add the greyscale factor to it, and you have a deadly combo.

I'd add though that we've seen Stannis make hard choices before, and not take the "expected" course. He mentions that he was particularly gutted when Robert rose in rebellion as he didn't know who to choose: his brother or his king. He never goes on to say how exactly he came to his decision, but one telling remark might give us that:

"But these lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten." (ACOK, Davos II)

He's talking about Renly here, but I still think it's fitting for his own conundrum. I'd say that while he choose Robert, he knows in his heart that the dutiful choice to was to Aerys. While Stannis chastises the lords who flocked to Renly for glory, he's still chastising people for abandoning their king, no matter what their reasons. He flocked to Robert, but he knew his duty was to Aerys.

[LordStoneheart]

Wonderful theory... Well, a very grim theory, but wonderfully presented.

(Dare I be the one to mention that ShowMelisandre straight up said Shireen has a destiny at the Wall or something like that?)

[Fire Eater]

I agree with this reference and theory. It would be a point of no return for Stannis. To add to the Agamemnon parallel. Agamemmnon had a bad relationship with Achilles, Robert's parallel (great warrior who had all the warrior virtues but hardly any of the others). Agamemnon was known for his overwhelming haughtiness, an over-exalted opinion of his position.

However, I would be interested to see Selyse's reaction. She would find herself on the opposite side of Melisandre for once, while I think Axell would be with Melisandre on this one, because that guy has no moral center.

I think Stannis would do it provided two conditions:

1)Dany arrives with news of her being declared AAR and her dragons.

2)Val proves to be right, and Shireen's greyscale reactivates.

Melisandre and Stannis would find themselves both pushed to the point of desperation. Stannis would need a dragon or lose the war while Melisandre would have to give him one or lose her credibility in admitting she picked the wrong person for AAR. Melisandre would say Shireen is dead anyway so they might as well.

[Mithras]

No where is stated that Shireen will be Nissa Nissa to Stannis' AAR.

Mel mentioned that while she was trying to convince Stannis to burn Edric. The idea is there with respect to waking dragons from stone. Given the choice between his rightful heir and his wife whom he has been shunning for years, I think Stannis chooses Selyse over Shireen in every case. I also think that dragons coming to eat Shireen have a different interpretation than most people assume.

[Ygrain]

Probably not coincidental. There are some other parallels as well, apart from the obvious visions and prophetic inclinations. Cassandra is said to have gotten her gift from Apollo (god of the sun, heat and light and prophecy) after either refusing to spend the night with him OR falling asleep in his temple and gaining knowledge (cause snakes whispered to her). We know Mel was probably sold to a temple as a young girl and instructed in the ways of the Red God (god of light). Are there any snake references to Mel just out of curiosity...?

A good point on the temple parallel as well as Apollo/R'hllor, I didn't think that far. I might add that Cassandra was cursed so that no-one would believe her visions, and Jon doesn't believe Mel, either :-)

[markg171]

A good point on the temple parallel as well as Apollo/R'hllor, I didn't think that far. I might add that Cassandra was cursed so that no-one would believe her visions, and Jon doesn't believe Mel, either :-)

I might add though that no one believes Mel either. She says that she's the best at interpreting visions, but history has told her followers to doubt her.

[Mladen]

I'd add though that we've seen Stannis make hard choices before, and not take the "expected" course. He mentions that he was particularly gutted when Robert rose in rebellion as he didn't know who to choose: his brother or his king. He never goes on to say how exactly he came to his decision, but one telling remark might give us that:

Stannis has an interesting history of dealing with tough choices and people blaming him for that. I have no doubts that, at the end, people would do the same of this would happen. But, as Davos said to Stannis on his question what does one boy mean against lives of millions, it is everything. Stannis may have the cold logic of what he is about to do, but righteousness is tricky here.

I think Stannis would do it provided two conditions:

1)Dany arrives with news of her being declared AAR and her dragons.

2)Val proves to be right, and Shireen's greyscale reactivates.

I would, for the time being, put my money on greyscale reactivation. Nonetheless, Stannis will undoubtedly face the difficult hit when he realizes that he either is not AAR or that Melisandre has switched her allegiances.

[Mithras]

Stannis is a pragmatist above else. What good are the Florents to him now? He clearly despises both Axell and Selyse. How many Florent men are fighting for him? Who would Stannis choose: a bunch of lunatic Florents or the Northmen who follow the Old Gods and the King's Men who follow the Seven all of whom are annoyed with the red choir? Which group is larger and more valuable? And if Selyse is out of the picture, the marriage hand of Stannis becomes free.