Stannis/Agamemnon parallels and Shireen's fate

[Mithras]

Like I said above GRRM doesn't need to stick just to one myth. He can combine various facets of many myths: Agememnon, Perseus, Jappeth...

Regardless of any extra-textual myths, Patchface has to be involved in some creepy stuff in the future. Mel calls him dangerous and sees him with bloody lips. He is always hanging out with Shireen, talking creepy stuff.

"Patchface, be a good fool and take the princess to her room.”

The bells on his hat rang. “Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.” He took the little princess by one hand and drew her from the room, skipping.

This is far more foreboding than anything related to Shireen IMO.

Unless GRRM intends to insert actual "God" into this, then it won't likely take that route.

I suppose "magic" could stand in, but it doesn't seem to play sides since it's not any sort of conscience entity.

George indeed inserted an actual god to the story who will save Shireen like Perseus saved Andromeda

:)

[Mithras]

Another parallel I invoked previously and will invoke here again is that Shireen might be the Tehanu of ASOIAF, which fits nicely because Jon is the eldest black dragon who will save her like Kalessin saved Tehanu.

Tehanu begins slightly before the conclusion of the previous book in the series, The Farthest Shore, and provides some information about the life of Tenar after the end of The Tombs of Atuan. She had rejected the option of life among the aristocracy of Havnor, which Ged had opened to her, and arrived on Gont. For some time she lived with Ged's old master Ogion - but though fond of him, rejected Ogion's offer to teach her magic. Instead, she married a farmer called Flint with whom she had two children, called Apple and Spark, and became known to the locals as Goha. It is mentioned that Ged was a bit disappointed in - and did not understand - Tenar's choice of a life. This is not explicitly explained, but there are hints of her feeling a lingering guilt about having been an arrogant Arch-Priestess and ordering people to be cruelly put to death. Moreover, in the beginning of The Tombs of Atuan it is mentioned that Tenar was born to a farmer's family and at a young age was taken from her loving parents by the Temple servants, and that as a child she was fond of apple trees.

At the book's outset, with her husband now dead and her children grown up, Tenar lives on her own at Flint's property Oak Farm, and is lonely and uncertain of her own identity - is she the simple farm woman Goha, or the ex-Kargish priestess Tenar? She adopts the child of wandering vagabonds after the child's natural father pushes her into a campfire and leaves her for dead. Tenar helps to save the child's life, but the child is left with one side of her face permanently scarred and the fingers of one hand fused into a claw. Tenar gives the child the name Therru which means 'flame' in Tenar's native Kargish language.

Tenar learns that the mage Ogion, her former tutor, is on his deathbed and has asked to see her. She sets out to visit him at his house outside the town of Re Albi, taking Therru with her. On the way, she encounters a group of ruffians, one of whom is Handy, who was involved in the original attempt on Therru's life, and claims to be her uncle. She stays with Ogion, tending to him in his last days. He instructs her to teach Therru, but his instructions are vague, and hint at her being more than she seems. After his death, she stays on at his cottage, tending to his orchard and goats and pondering her future. She befriends a local witch called Moss and a simple village girl called Heather. Her tranquil existence is dramatically broken by the arrival of Ged (also called Sparrowhawk) on the back of the dragon Kalessin, unconscious and near death. Ged - once the Archmage of Roke - has spent all his wizard's powers in sealing the gap between the worlds of the living and the dead created by the evil wizard Cob. She nurses him back to health, but when the new king Lebannen sends envoys to bring him back to Roke to resume his duties as Archmage, Ged cannot face them, fearing them due to his loss of power. He accepts Tenar's offer to return to Oak Farm to manage things there in her absence and flees there to take up a life as a goatherd. While at Re Albi, Tenar is confronted by the local lord's wicked mage, Aspen, who attempts to put a curse on her, but is initially thwarted.

Tenar informs the king's men that she cannot reveal Ged's whereabouts, and they accept the situation and depart. Tenar is initially unsure whether to stay or leave Re Albi, when her safety is threatened again by Aspen and Handy, so she flees with Therru. Her mind confused by Aspen's magic, she is almost overtaken by Handy, but manages to escape, taking refuge in the ship of the king himself. Lebannen takes Tenar and Therru to Valmouth, where Tenar eventually returns to Oak Farm to find that Ged is away tending goats in the mountains for the season. Tenar settles back into life on the farm, until one night, several men attempt to break into the house and apprehend Therru, but are driven off by Ged, who happened to overhear and follow them on their way toward the farm. Tenar and Ged begin a relationship, acknowledging that they had always loved each other. Ged wants nothing more than to settle down and live an ordinary life, far from the concerns of an Archmage. Together, they teach and care for Therru and manage the farm. The order is upset however when Tenar's son Spark returns home suddenly from a life as a sailor and tells her he wishes to run the farm. Under Gontish law Oak Farm belongs to him and Tenar has no claim to it.

Before they have time to work out what will happen, Tenar hears word that Moss is dying and wants to see Tenar. She, Ged and Therru leave immediately for Re Albi. However, the message was a trap set by Aspen, who reveals himself to be a follower of the defeated wizard Cob, who despises Ged and Tenar, and fears Therru. When Tenar, under Aspen's curse, leads Ged toward the lord's mansion, Therru escapes. Ged is powerless to prevent Aspen from capturing the two and holding them prisoner, beating and humiliating them in the process, especially Tenar. Meanwhile, Therru runs to the cliff behind Ogion's cottage, where she calls to the dragon Kalessin for help, and reveals her true nature: she is in fact "a double being, half human, half-dragon." Aspen and his followers bring both Tenar and Ged up to the clifftop. Under the influence of Aspen's spell, they are both just about to jump to their deaths when the dragon Kalessin arrives and burns and crushes Aspen and his men to heaps of ash and rags. Kalessin addresses Therru by her true name Tehanu, calling her his daughter, and asks her if she would like to leave with him, but she decides for now that she will stay with Tenar and Ged. The novel ends with all three of them settling down to a simple life of farming and goat keeping at Ogion's old cottage.

There is, however, the clear suggestion that Tehanu is the "woman on Gont" who is destined to ultimately become the Archmage at the Magic School of Roke. Obviously, innately knowing as her "mother tongue" the True Speech which is the basis of all magic - rather than having to spend years in laboriously learning it, as ordinary mages need to do - would give her an enormous head start. Also, already as an untrained child, she is by definition a dragon lord - i.e., "a person which dragons talk to" - a distinction which only a few grown mages achieve even at the height of their power.

[BearQueen87]

1.Regardless of any extra-textual myths, Patchface has to be involved in some creepy stuff in the future. Mel calls him dangerous and sees him with bloody lips. He is always hanging out with Shireen, talking creepy stuff.

"Patchface, be a good fool and take the princess to her room.”

The bells on his hat rang. “Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.” He took the little princess by one hand and drew her from the room, skipping.

This is far more foreboding than anything related to Shireen IMO.

2. George indeed inserted an actual god to the story who will save Shireen like Perseus saved Andromeda

:)

1. I wont' deny the somewhat creepy factor that is Patchface.

2. Oh sweet 7. I asked for that didn't I? Back to your shrine, Ser

[Mithras]

Back to your shrine, Ser

We call it Mithraeum

Sorry but it's male only :P

[Mladen]

1. I wont' deny the somewhat creepy factor that is Patchface.

I doubt anyone can deny it... But it doesn't mean that everything regarding Stannis must have Patchface in mind.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

your threads are a delight to read as usual. However I disagree at some point.

HBO made it pretty clear that Mel and Selyse are going to play this behind stannis back or against his wishes (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45fqk-CqV_Y)

, and him fighting in WF seams like the perfect moment. So Clitemnestra is playing a whole differnt part here.

Also when Agammenon did the saccrifice he had a male heir, and unlist an other daughter.

[Mithras]

I doubt anyone can deny it... But it doesn't mean that everything regarding Stannis must have Patchface in mind.

But if something is gonna happen to Shireen, I don't think there can be a reasonable scenario without the involvement of Patchface. Whether he saves her or attacks her, Patchface is linked with Shireen all the time.

[Mladen]

your threads are a delight to read as usual. However I disagree at some point.

HBO made it pretty clear that Mel and Selyse are going to play this behind stannis back or against his wishes

, and him fighting in WF seams like the perfect moment. So Clitemnestra is playing a whole differnt part here.

Also when Agammenon did the saccrifice he had a male heir, and unlist an other daughter.

Thank you so much. It is very kind of you to say that.

I thought for a while about that. And it can work... I am not certain whether the got it right and whether we can take it as some sort of foreshadowing, but the switch of roles can be interesting approach to the myth. I see Shireen as "sacrificial lamb" and whether it is Selyse or Stannis, it can indeed be debatable. I would agree that options are wide open.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Thank you so much. It is very kind of you to say that.

I thought for a while about that. And it can work... I am not certain whether the got it right and whether we can take it as some sort of foreshadowing, but the switch of roles can be interesting approach to the myth. I see Shireen as "sacrificial lamb" and whether it is Selyse or Stannis, it can indeed be debatable. I would agree that options are wide open.

The show has tryed to make a stronger point in Stannis love for shireen: he doesnt allow selyse to hit her, has some nice moments with the girl (even a hug lol), etc. And the video I linked in the spoiler its brutally clear.

George lately kind of did the same in theons AWOW chapter

when Stannis asks Massey to fight to put shireen in the throne if he dies

so really I see it most likely happening now that he is gone, the wall is a mess, and Jon needs some trick to e brought back.

It might be Stannis the one who ends up killing selyse, and frankly I think he diserves that tragedy to happen to him, after all he has listened to Mel.

[TheNinjaDC]

The show has tryed to make a stronger point in Stannis love for shireen: he doesnt allow selyse to hit her, has some nice moments with the girl (even a hug lol), etc. And the video I linked in the spoiler its brutally clear.

George lately kind of did the same in theons AWOW chapter

when Stannis asks Massey to fight to put shireen in the throne if he dies

so really I see it most likely happening now that he is gone, the wall is a mess, and Jon needs some trick to e brought back.

It might be Stannis the one who ends up killing selyse, and frankly I think he diserves that tragedy to happen to him, after all he has listened to Mel.

Shireen being a saved sacrifice could also go down/parallel the founding of House Baratheon.

"During the War of Conquest Orys and Rhaenys Targaryen, with her dragon Meraxes, were tasked with taking Storm's End. TheStorm King, Argilac Durrandon, hearing of the fate of Harrenhal, knew his formidable walls would not protect him from dragonfire. Argilac rode out to give open battle. Orys slew Argilac the Arrogant, the last Storm King. After the battle, Argella Durrandon, the daughter of Argilac, declared herself the Storm Queen and continued to hold Storm's End until her household turned against her to avoid the same fate of Harrenhal. They delivered her to Orys, naked and chained. Orys, however, covered her with his cloak and treated her chivalrously."

Orys= Jon (Targ bastard?)

Argilac= Stannis (believed dead after riding out to battle)

House Hold= Forces at Wall either willing to offer her to Ramsey, or out right try to sacrifice her.

[Mithras]

Shireen being a saved sacrifice could also go down/parallel the founding of House Baratheon.

"During the War of Conquest Orys and Rhaenys Targaryen, with her dragon Meraxes, were tasked with taking Storm's End. TheStorm King, Argilac Durrandon, hearing of the fate of Harrenhal, knew his formidable walls would not protect him from dragonfire. Argilac rode out to give open battle. Orys slew Argilac the Arrogant, the last Storm King. After the battle, Argella Durrandon, the daughter of Argilac, declared herself the Storm Queen and continued to hold Storm's End until her household turned against her to avoid the same fate of Harrenhal. They delivered her to Orys, naked and chained. Orys, however, covered her with his cloak and treated her chivalrously."

Orys= Jon (Targ bastard?)

Argilac= Stannis (believed dead after riding out to battle)

House Hold= Forces at Wall either willing to offer her to Ramsey, or out right try to sacrifice her.

I think that parallel will work with Jon marrying Shireen (the last Baratheon) in the end. Argella was brought to Orys in chains which were immediately removed by Orys. As I mentioned before, this is an element from Perseus/Andromeda. Andromeda was the girl in chains sacrificed to a sea monster but Perseus slew the monster and married her.

[BearQueen87]

I doubt anyone can deny it... But it doesn't mean that everything regarding Stannis must have Patchface in mind.

Completely agree. I don't see Patchface as being malevolent.

But if something is gonna happen to Shireen, I don't think there can be a reasonable scenario without the involvement of Patchface. Whether he saves her or attacks her, Patchface is linked with Shireen all the time.

Sure, but like you said he could very well try to save her, not become the beast.

[Hrafntýr]

Thank you so much. It is very kind of you to say that.

I thought for a while about that. And it can work... I am not certain whether the got it right and whether we can take it as some sort of foreshadowing, but the switch of roles can be interesting approach to the myth. I see Shireen as "sacrificial lamb" and whether it is Selyse or Stannis, it can indeed be debatable. I would agree that options are wide open.

I suggested on the previous page that Euripedes' characterization of Iphigenia might be instructive on this point of who is "responsible" for the sacrifice: In Iphigenia at Aulis Euripedes mades Iphigenia a willing sacrificial victim, which may be responsible for her elevation to the status of ritual specialist; while the family drama by no means falls away, Iphigenia (Shireen) becomes an important agent of self-sacrifice. Then in Iphigenia at Tauris we see her in this new ritual role using the language of miasma/pollution, and figuring the sea as that which washes away pollution/evil. This could also, possibly, tie in with Mithras Stoneborn's interest in a possible role for Patchface.

[Mithras]

Sure, but like you said he could very well try to save her, not become the beast.

I agree. Shireen's family will be the true monster as a twist to Perseus/Andromeda/Cetus. If Patchface appears dangerous to Mel, then he must be on the right path :D

[Mithras]

BTW, I do not think that Mel has any thought of saving/healing/resurrecting Jon as I discussed here. On the contrary, she will try to burn him as a blood sacrifice beore he dies to not waste his kingsblood and his magical potential.

[The Drunkard]

It might be Stannis the one who ends up killing selyse, and frankly I think he diserves that tragedy to happen to him, after all he has listened to Mel.

His daughter deserves to be burned alive because he listened to Melisandre? She's the reason he's taking the Others seriously.

[Mladen]

The seed has been planted...

In tonight's episode, 5x07 of "Game of thrones", Melisandre starts working on Stannis and trying to persuade him to burn Shireen. Given how differently the things in the show are positioned, most likely we are bound to see Selyse doing the deed, but I wouldn't still discard Stannis. And while I am firm believer that ultimately show means nothing, this was a nice nod to this theory. If nothing, a man can dream :)

[naseridrl]

So will it be Davos who kills him for what he's done instead of his wife? I'm not sure how Selyse will view the choice but Davos would be disgusted I don't doubt.

[Mladen]

According to episode 5x09 and the producers' "Inside the episode" video, Stannis is indeed meant to burn Shireen or play some part in that event. This theory and how TV show handled this event are significantly different, especially in terms of what the ultimate message of such event should be.

The consequences are easily imaginable and predictable but please if you want to discuss, focus solely on the books.

[Knight Of Winter]

How come I didn't see this thread earlier? If discussion (hopefully) hasn't died out, I'd like to chime in with some of my thoughts on this.

This would be the right time to insert a quote from a wise man:

So they will not love, for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.. ... What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy

It's an interesting recurring theme in the series – protecting the loved ones vs doing your duty. And here love prevails – for even an ever-honourable Ned Stark readily committed high treason for his love of Lyanna, or confessed to one to protect Sansa. Will Stannis' case be different? I hop not – I quite like Shireen.

And there's always the case of classic I'm all pro-action, but not in my backyard mentality. People will cheer for changes which would benefit greater good, and will stop when they learn these changes will negatively affect them. In a way, it was „easy“ for Stannis for sacrifice Edric, but will he so readily sacrifice his own daughter, maybe the only person he loves in the entire world?

However, you do present some very interesting Stannis-Agamemnon parallels, so let's assume the theory is correct. I'd like to add up on something IIRC Ygrain noted – that Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter eventually led to his downfall. His wife Clytemnestra, loyal and obedient to far, plotted his death upon his return home. If we're trying to find character-parallel to Clytemnestra,I wonder would Davos not be better choice than Selyse? Selyse is not a best example here – she's utterly obsessed with religious fanaticism, and I'd wager she's way more loyal to Mel and R'hllor than to Stannis. I remember Jon noting she would willingly step into flames at Mel's command, so it's not that big of a stretch to assume she woulnd't object to sacrificing her daughter. Ergo, not the best Clytemnestra parallel.

That's where Davos comes in. Someone who was unquestioningly loyal to Stannis so far, sane and sound advisor, might suddenly start questioning is children-killing king still worth serving (we know his stance about Edric). Just like how Agamemnon's sacrifice of Ifigenia made Clytemnestra think he's as good as dead.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. Greek mythology is always an interesting topic to discuss.