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And one the white wolf could no longer sense


Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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I know there are multiple threads discussing different theories about this passage.

I've seen people claiming it means Lady is still alive or GreyWind/GreyRobb are still alive.

I've also seen it argued that Ghost can't sense which ever wolves happen to be on the opposite side of the wall as him.

I've never bought into Lady or Greywind being alive but I was just rereading this passage and realized I have no idea who Ghost cannot sense and why.

Let's look at the passage in question:

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother , sucking cool milk from her hard, dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained... and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

Before we talk about the bolded parts I want to remind you that just a few pages before this Ghost is thinking about Nymeria and her pack so it isn't her he doesn't sense.

A page or so later we have:

On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey one who smelled of summer.

Ok so it isn't Summer either.

Summer

Nymeria

Shaggydog

Grewind

Lady

Same paragraph as Nymeria:

A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goats long horn had raked him.

Summer

Nymeria

Shaggy dog

Greywind

Lady

Now if we can refer back to the first bolded part "...their dead mother"

So Ghost understands death. He knows the word dead and apparently grasps what that means. I take this to mean he isn't just not sensing one of them because they are dead. He would just say that. Besides if he couldn't sense them because they were dead wouldn't he not sense 2 of them? I suppose unless one was dead and one was alive.

Now to the second bolded part. I will concede the 'and' in that sentence makes it seem as if he is speaking of 5 wolves.

Four remained... and one...

If he were referring to one of the four there is no need for the 'and' really BUT that in itself I don't think means much and why the 'four remained' if there are actually five? I don't think he is leaving himself out, he didn't when he started the monologue. He separated himself from the rest but still mentioned himself.

It's argued 3 posts down that Ghost isn't really sensing Summer, just knows he is on the other side of the Wall because he had been there.

But do we have any evidence that they can't sense each other from opposite sides of the wall other than this particular instance?

If it isn't Summer, who is it?

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Ghost tells us what Shaggydog is doing in the same paragraph that he tells us what Nymeria is doing, Shaggydog is the black wolf. The one Ghost cannot sense is probably Summer on the other side of the Wall. Now, if the Wall keeps Ghost from sensing Summer, how does Ghost know that Summer is on the other side of the Wall? Summer passed through the Black Gate under the Wall before Ghost came back from beyond the Wall. Sam opens up the Black Gate letting Bran, Hodor, the Reeds and Summer through, then after that Sam returns to Castle Black. It's only after that that Ghost is reunited with Jon and passes back south of the Wall. So Ghost knows that Summer is north of the Wall because Ghost and Summer were both north of the Wall at the same time. Note that while Ghost says that he sense the wind is colder north of the Wall, where Summer is, Ghost does not tell us what Summer is doing, as he does with Shaggydog and Nymeria.



The alternative, I suppose, is that Ghost cannot sense Grey Wind. Ghost was north of the Wall when Grey Wind was killed. Bran has a wolf dream about what happened to Robb and Grey Wind before he goes through the Wall (which he doesn't tell the Reeds about). Since Ghost was north of the wall at the time, Ghost may not necessarily know what happened to Grey Wind, other than that he's missing (although Jon certainly knows what happened to Robb)



Either way, it seems that there's something about the Wall that's messing with Ghost's ability to detect his siblings.


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Interesting, since Jon has a different mother to the rest of the stark kids is it possible that ghost does too? Maybe not but he is thinking about THEY'RE mother while he was wandering in the snow. Just a thought that came to me while I read your post

Nice catch! I hadn't thought of that!

Ghost tells us what Shaggydog is doing in the same paragraph that he tells us what Nymeria is doing, Shaggydog is the black wolf. The one Ghost cannot sense is probably Summer on the other side of the Wall. Now, if the Wall keeps Ghost from sensing Summer, how does Ghost know that Summer is on the other side of the Wall? Summer passed through the Black Gate under the Wall before Ghost came back from beyond the Wall. Sam opens up the Black Gate letting Bran, Hodor, the Reeds and Summer through, then after that Sam returns to Castle Black. It's only after that that Ghost is reunited with Jon and passes back south of the Wall. So Ghost knows that Summer is north of the Wall because Ghost and Summer were both north of the Wall at the same time. Note that while Ghost says that he sense the wind is colder north of the Wall, where Summer is, Ghost does not tell us what Summer is doing, as he does with Shaggydog and Nymeria.

The alternative, I suppose, is that Ghost cannot sense Grey Wind. Ghost was north of the Wall when Grey Wind was killed. Bran has a wolf dream about what happened to Robb and Grey Wind before he goes through the Wall (which he doesn't tell the Reeds about). Since Ghost was north of the wall at the time, Ghost may not necessarily know what happened to Grey Wind, other than that he's missing (although Jon certainly knows what happened to Robb)

Either way, it seems that there's something about the Wall that's messing with Ghost's ability to detect his siblings.

I missed that about Shaggydog! I'll have to edit the OP &/or end the thread I suppose. If it isn't Summer he cannot sense then it has to be Greywind or Lady which makes this just another 'Greywind or Lady' are alive thread.

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I missed that about Shaggydog! I'll have to edit the OP &/or end the thread I suppose. If it isn't Summer he cannot sense then it has to be Greywind or Lady which makes this just another 'Greywind or Lady' are alive thread.

If it's Grey Wind that can't be sensed, it's because Grey Wind is dead. Ghost was north of the Wall when Grey Wind died. If Ghost couldn't sense Grey Wind's death, then Ghost might not entirely be sure what happened to Grey Wind. So Ghost can't sense Grey Wind but didn't sense his death. I don't think there's anything to any sort of idea that either Lady or Grey Wind are still alive. Summer quite clearly thinks about Lady being dead (it's in one of the Bran chapters in Storm). Bran also knows about Robb and Grey Wind's deaths through a wolf dream (it's in Bran's last chapter in Storm).

Still, I think the one that Ghost could not sense is Summer. The "and one the white wolf could no longer sense" is a qualifier about the fact that four of the wolves remain, not stating that there is an additional wolf beyond the four that remain, in my opinion.

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Yeah, I think it is Summer and the Wall is the problem. The same happens to Jon when he returns south of the Wall and Ghost is still north of it, he can't sense Ghost until Ghost returns to Castyle Black. The one thing that gets me though, when Jon was forced to cross the wall to parley with Mance he never picked up a Ghost vibe while they were both north of the wall. Strange

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  • 3 weeks later...

Interesting theory, but technically Ghost as "narrator" could be including himself in the collective "their," if the dead mother was mother to all the pups. It seems highly unlikely that a second pregnant direwolf would come as far south as that AND whelp at the same time AND abandon her cub AND not be seen by anyone.


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depending on who died first, Robb or Grey wind, Ghost may still be able to sense Robb, if he warged somewhere else. That is the only pair that is both dead. CAn ghost be getting Sansa Mixed up with Lady?

This is actually my pet theory. Remember that whenever we get a Wolf POV, its actually a Stark POV who happens to be warging a wolf at the time. We also know from Haggon, that skinchanging creates bonds with animals. The human becomes more wolfish, while the wolf becomes more human. I posit that skinchanging is a two way street, its the creation of a (partially) shared mind across multiple organisms.

Once you understand this, the passage can be read a little bit differently. 'Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother , sucking cool milk from her hard, dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone.Four (pairs) remained... and one (sibling) the white wolf could no longer sense.' The sibling, Jon's sibling, would be Sansa. Ghost/Jon can't sense Sansa anymore because the link through Lady was cutoff, but still Jon believes that Sansa is alive, which means Ghost/Jon does to. Sansa just can't be sensed.

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This is actually my pet theory. Remember that whenever we get a Wolf POV, its actually a Stark POV who happens to be warging a wolf at the time. We also know from Haggon, that skinchanging creates bonds with animals. The human becomes more wolfish, while the wolf becomes more human. I posit that skinchanging is a two way street, its the creation of a (partially) shared mind across multiple organisms.

Once you understand this, the passage can be read a little bit differently. 'Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother , sucking cool milk from her hard, dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone.Four (pairs) remained... and one (sibling) the white wolf could no longer sense.' The sibling, Jon's sibling, would be Sansa. Ghost/Jon can't sense Sansa anymore because the link through Lady was cutoff, but still Jon believes that Sansa is alive, which means Ghost/Jon does to. Sansa just can't be sensed.

I've never thought of it this way but it makes a lot of sense.
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Seriously, I think it's Lady that Ghost can't sense.



In the world of ice and fire there's a presence after death, as Varamyr tells. I suppose Ghost can still feel Grey Wind somehow. (On a side note, Robb-Grey might have found unknown warging abilities and got into some wolf, but this is stretched, there's no solid basis.)



Otoh, Lady is long time dead and, more important, Sansa has taken her own way. Remember the controversial chapter.



Starks were but children when the story set off. They've grown up enduring challenging ordeals. Their come back will have little and less to do with the first books. Be ready to revenge and cruelty.


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But did George mean 4 remained, besides Ghost, and the 5th one, besides Ghost, could no longer be sensed, or was it a grand total of 4, besides Ghost, amongst whom is one which could no longer be sensed, or did he mean Ghost was one of the remaining 4, with the death of Lady in the further past and Grey Wind the one who recently became no longer able to be sensed?



I'm not sure how Direwolves do math.


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The wording is a bit obscure, but not too bad for a direwolf. Another possibility:



There were six of them.


So, Ghost had five siblings.


Of those, Lady is dead; four remain.


Of these four, Ghost thinks of three explicitly, but he can't sense Grey Wind any longer.



I think this is the easiest interpretation, then, it should trump the other one, built on presence after death.


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The wording is a bit obscure, but not too bad for a direwolf. Another possibility:

There were six of them.

So, Ghost had five siblings.

Of those, Lady is dead; four remain.

Of these four, Ghost thinks of three explicitly, but he can't sense Grey Wind any longer.

I think this is the easiest interpretation, then, it should trump the other one, built on presence after death.

That's pretty much what I meant by "...a grand total of 4, besides Ghost, amongst whom is one which could no longer be sensed...".

At this point I think Lady has been gone long enough to not count unless specifically identified somehow.

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I think this ultimately just comes down to how we read the '4 and 1' line. There are at least a few options....

1. Four (of us) remained, and one (of us) could no longer be sensed.

2. Four (siblings) remained, and one (of them) could no longer be sensed.

3. Four (of us) remained, and one (other) could no longer be sensed.

4. Four (siblings) remained, and one (other) could no longer be sensed.

...Of these options, the one I like best is option 3. If option 3 is a correct reading, then I think the most likely candidates for 'us' are Bran/Summer, Ghost/Jon, Arya/Nymeria, and Rickon/Shaggydog while the 'other' is simply Sansa who can't be sensed because the connection through Lady is gone. After option 3, option 1 seems the second most plausible. The 'us' would be the same as in option 3, while the 'other' would likely be Bran/Summer.

Option 2 is more suspect than 1 or 3 as it requires Jon/Ghost to be unaware of at least one Direwolf's death. Option 4 is even more suspect as it implies that somehow, Jon/Ghost is sensing someone who is dead.

For reference, here is the quote again.

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard, dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained... and one the white wolf could no longer sense.


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I have always clung to the hope that one of the "dead" wolves survived because of the passages Lysnna <3 Rhaeger has pointed out. Ned took care of Lady, and sent her back to be buried at Winterfell. But would Cersei know if a dead wolf was in fact Lady? She was the smallest of the wolves. No way could Ned tell Sansa, she wore everything on her sleeve.


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I have always clung to the hope that one of the "dead" wolves survived because of the passages Lysnna <3 Rhaeger has pointed out. Ned took care of Lady, and sent her back to be buried at Winterfell. But would Cersei know if a dead wolf was in fact Lady? She was the smallest of the wolves. No way could Ned tell Sansa, she wore everything on her sleeve.

That would be lovely, but I doubt GRRM would do anything so sentimental, sadly. I would love that, though. Poor Lady.

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