R+L=J v.123

[BearQueen87]

Why not just wipe them all out? If there's neither fire nor ice, there is balance. Kill all the dragons and kill all the Others and everything's balanced and no one needs to be the centre.

I'm not even sure there is supposed to be a balance. Where is this ever even stated that a balance must be achieved? As far as I can tell, it's just a fan theory. The goal from everything we've seen is to drive back the Others and beat them, not balance them.

See my post. The world is imbalanced, not the dragons and the WW. They are symptoms of the world imbalance.

Also, what do you mean "where is this ever stated" Stop thinking that GRRM is going to spell it out for you with some clever expositional speech. That's NOT how he writes. How can it be spelled out in universe when the characters in universe don't even understand or know what is going on?

[BearQueen87]

Oh, btw: I second KM's suggestion that sj4iy's text-reference be added to the OP

[sj4iy]

Why not just wipe them all out? If there's neither fire nor ice, there is balance. Kill all the dragons and kill all the Others and everything's balanced and no one needs to be the centre.

I'm not even sure there is supposed to be a balance. Where is this ever even stated that a balance must be achieved? As far as I can tell, it's just a fan theory. The goal from everything we've seen is to drive back the Others and beat them, not balance them.

Killing things off means nothing if the magic that brought it to life still exists.

And it's stated in the World Book that the world used to have normal seasons...then something threw it out of normalcy.

I never said that this is necessarily what's going to happen...but neither dragons nor ice creatures are the answer to fix the world. Dragons destroy, ice destroys...neither are the answer that the world needs. A world without magic is a better solution.

This is most definitely a fan theory. But there is something about Jon's blood...having the blood of ice and fire means that he has it him to be the answer the world needs.

[sj4iy]

Oh, btw: I second KM's suggestion that sj4iy's text-reference be added to the OP

I'm fine with it :)

[markg171]

Brielfy

1) The WW were back before the prologue. They were just moving south (and going just a bit beyond that, I think the WW were "awoken" when Rhaegar was born. He was the dragon born back into the world that Aegon V thought he'd get at Summerhall, only Rhaegar was not of the winged variety)

2) The world of Palenetos is very much out of balance given that winters still last generations and summers can last years. Ergo, balance not achieved

3) I tend to believe that the the WW and the dragons are symptomatic of the world being out of balance; I don't really expect either of the WW or the dragons to be alive come series end

4) Jon's role is to restore planetary balance by doing "the thing" and only he can do that because he is the embodiment of balance.

1. I kinda agree about Rhaegar. It's seems an awfully odd coincidence that Aegon was trying to create dragons at Summerhal, and Rhaegar just happened to be born at the same time in the same place. Plus, the Dunk and Egg stories are building to the Tragedy, so there must be something we haven't been told yet.

2. I don't really see the planet as being imbalanced though. They have long summers and long winters, short summers and short winters. They can no more predict their long winters than they can their long summers. It's only the Long Night that's ever really been "out of balance" of Planetos seasonal system

3. I don't expect them to survive either. I don't think it was just a coincidence that AGOT started with the Others returning, and ended with the dragons returning. It seems they're destined to come together. But I'm not sure if they really have anything to do with the fluctuations of the seasons. At best, we can see that the Others have played a role as they appeared during the Long Night. Dragons haven't seemed to affect summer in any way yet.

See my post. The world is imbalanced, not the dragons and the WW. They are symptoms of the world imbalance.

Also, what do you mean "where is this ever stated" Stop thinking that GRRM is going to spell it out for you with some clever expositional speech. That's NOT how he writes. How can it be spelled out in universe when the characters in universe don't even understand or know what is going on?

I don't expect him to spell out everything. But with 2 books left, I would at least expect there to have been some sign that balance between ice and fire is an issue in the books and is what the story is coming to. What we've seen instead is that the books are coming to trying to defeat ice, not balance it.

[The Twinslayer]

And, just to throw this out there, if the Faith had that much power to insist that polygamy be made illegal for "sin" reasons, then why not also outlaw incest while you're at it? The thing that Targs kept on doing...again and again and again...

I think you are forgetting that Jaehaerys was married to his sister. The Faith could reasonably ask Jaehaerys to outlaw something that the unpopular Maegor the Cruel had done (plural marriage), but it would be another thing entirely to ask Jaehaerys to outlaw his own marriage.

Also, RumHam has pointed out that polygamy was rare, perhaps because it can lead to problems over disputed succession, while incest may have been important to the Targaryens (at least as long as there were dragons) because it was necessary in order for them to maintain control their dragons.

So it makes sense that when there were two things that offended the Faith -- polygamy and incest -- the compromise would result in outlawing the one that Jaehaerys had no interest in doing but preserve the one that he was already doing.

[BearQueen87]

1. I kinda agree about Rhaegar. It's seems an awfully odd coincidence that Aegon was trying to create dragons at Summerhal, and Rhaegar just happened to be born at the same time in the same place. Plus, the Dunk and Egg stories are building to the Tragedy, so there must be something we haven't been told yet.

2. I don't really see the planet as being imbalanced though. They have long summers and long winters, short summers and short winters. They can no more predict their long winters than they can their long summers. It's only the Long Night that's ever really been "out of balance" of Planetos seasonal system

3. I don't expect them to survive either. I don't think it was just a coincidence that AGOT started with the Others returning, and ended with the dragons returning. It seems they're destined to come together. But I'm not sure if they really have anything to do with the fluctuations of the seasons. At best, we can see that the Others have played a role as they appeared during the Long Night. Dragons haven't seemed to affect summer in any way yet.

1. Miracles do happen!!!!!!

2. Read the world book, friend. Everything used to be in balance. Now, in my own theory, the world became imbalanced when humans "did a thing" (magical in Asshai which is why Asshai is horrible place and we should never go there. There have been some really great theories about a second moon in the sky, like in Eroeh's story to Dany. Dragons may not have literally come forth, but they did appear after the moon cracked/blew up/something or other. Same with WW's. Symptoms. Not causes.

I don't expect him to spell out everything. But with 2 books left, I would at least expect there to have been some sign that balance between ice and fire is an issue in the books and is what the story is coming to. What we've seen instead is that the books are coming to trying to defeat ice, not balance it

Well, now be fair. Just because you haven't seen the hints doesn't mean that they aren't there. And nothing in this book is about 'defeating ice." Why is it called the song of ice AND fire. Why not ice or fire? Why not song of fire if Fire is supposed to be champion? Why do the Starks get the wolves and Dany gets her dragons if ice isn't supposed to be more complex than big bad?

It isn't about beating one side. That's so myopic and surface. The Others aren't black hats, IMO. They do horrible vile things...and so do the humans. This is about failure to see both sides complexly. When Bran (IMO) finally gets the low down on the Others from his tree, we'll see that the Others have myths and stories and legends and histories about the big bad humans who took their land or bring fire and light...ect. Complexity. See things complexly.

[sj4iy]

I don't expect him to spell out everything. But with 2 books left, I would at least expect there to have been some sign that balance between ice and fire is an issue in the books and is what the story is coming to. What we've seen instead is that the books are coming to trying to defeat ice, not balance it.

We see that 'fire' is attempting to destroy 'ice', but that fire's methods are dubious and unsettling. See Melisandre, Thoros, Moqorro and Benerro. All of them have incredible powers- but all of those powers have devastating consequences. Same with Dany's dragons. They have incredible power, but it's a double-edged sword.

The world can't just have 'fire' without something to keep fire from consuming the world...just like it can't have 'ice' without something to keep IT from consuming the world. Both are needed.

[The Twinslayer]

In the instance of Argilac, Aegon's response was

He had two wives, he pointed out; he did not need a third

Had Argilac asked for Aegon to marry Argella as his only wife, this response would not have been given.

In the case of Sharra, it is said as well, he already had two queens, he did not need a third... And why the need to specifically name Sharra's son heir, if Sharra was Aegon's only wife?

So Argilac definitly offered Aegon a third wife, and all we know (though it is little) suggests that Sharra offered herself as a third wife as well.

I think that Argilac intended for Aegon to set aside his sisters and to take Argilac's daughter as his only wife. Otherwise, there was a risk that Aegon would have children by his sisters only and Argilac's line would never inherit the kingdom. I think Aegon's response was intended as an insult (you offered to make your daughter my only wife so your grandson would be my heir, but I am pretending what you really meant was that your daughter would take third position after my sisters).

Sharra was making the same offer -- she would become Aegon's only wife. But to do this she needed to be sure her son would be the heir. Otherwise, if she could not give Aegon a child, his kingdom would go to the descendants of one of his sisters by her new husband (after all, this is how the Stuarts gained possession of the English crown -- James VI of Scotland was descended from one of Henry VIII's sisters).

[Alia of the knife]

A question, if all Valarians engaged in such practices, why didn't the Berantheons and House Valaryon follow suit?

[addicted to snow]

This is most definitely a fan theory. But there is something about Jon's blood...having the blood of ice and fire means that he has it him to be the answer the world needs.

I am in 100% agreement with this statement!!!

I just find it very interesting that Jon is about to become seperated from his body, the very blood that we believe makes him special...

[Ygrain]

I don't really think it's clear the Faith had no (or little) problem with polygamy just because some kings suggested it or practiced it anyway. The worldbook makes it clear the Faith and most of the populous are against it.

The outcry over Maegor's second marriage has to be taken with a grain of salt because of the family ties between his first wife and HS. It is very easy for religious leaders to instigate public tantrum.

Pre-conquest the High Septons' influence was probably limited by the fact that he was based in the Reach. Thus I would imagine he didn't have nearly as much influence over the other kingdoms as he did there.

Just speculation, but when Garland II Gardner married the daughter of king Hightower to bring Oldtown into the reach he put aside his other wives. Possibly because he just absorbed the capitol of the Faith and the pious Hightowers weren't ok with polygamy.

This is actually pretty interesting. The religion of the Seven was pretty widespread but the church's influence was limited to the area of its stronghold and there seems to be a sort of schism between the practice of the church and of the religion. Did the original Andal version contain "one wife thou shalt take" and the polygamy of the more distant areas was an infusion of First Men customs? Or was this rule coined only by the Faith, perhaps aimed at the old religion?

However, the fact that for some it was acceptable pre-conquest shows very clearly one thing, consistent with what we see in the series: unlike with incest and kinslaying, there is NO such ancient and generally accepted social/religious taboo against polygamy.

Also, one thing about Jaehaerys:

Yet some say the most important achevement of the rule of Jaehaerys and Septon Barth was a reconciliation with the Faith. The Poor Fellows and Warrior's Sons, no longer hunted as they had been in Maegor's day, were much reduced and officially outlawed thanks to Maegor, but they were still present.

More pressingly, the Faith's traditional right to judge its own had begun to prove troublesome, and many lords complained of unscrupulous septries and septons making free with the wealth and property of their neughbours and those they preached to.

Some counselors urged the Old King to deal with the remnants of the Faith Militant harshly - to stamp them out once and fore all before their zealotry could return the realm to chaos. Others cared more for ensuring that the septons were answerable to the same justice as the rest of the realm. But Jaehaerys instead dispatched Septon Barth to Oldtown, to speak with the High Septon, and there they began to forge a lasting agreement. In return for the last few Stars and Swords putting down their weapons, and for agreeing to accept outside justice, the High Septon received King Jaehaerys's sworn oath that the Iron Throne would always protect and defend the Faith., In this way, the great schism between crown and Faith was forever healed.

Now, is it just me, or do we see here the Faith making concessions whereas Jaehaerys basically makes none? Because, look at the outcome: Stars and Swords unarmed, septons no longer outside justice, Targs freely carrying on with their incest and the HS just their puppet. Jaehaerys didn't need to appease the Faith, he could have crushed them.

[Ygrain]

A question, if all Valarians engaged in such practices, why didn't the Berantheons and House Valaryon follow suit?

I thought that the pure blood thing concerned mostly families of dragonriders?

[BearQueen87]

I thought that the pure blood thing concerned mostly families of dragonriders?

I was under that impression as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I thought that the pure blood thing concerned mostly families of dragonriders?

Indeed.

[MtnLion]

If fire wins, the world is imbalanced. If ice wins, the world is imbalanced.

Someone has to be the center...someone has to be the balance between the two. You can no more have Targaryens with their dragons ruling the world than you can have the Others and their ice zombies doing so. Both are harbingers of death and destruction.

I am fitting pieces together, here, with this input. We know that in the past there was the Night's King whose lover was Ice. In the past Ice had held dominion over the realm (north at the least) and was overthrown by the King in the North. We currently have Stannis with a consort that is Fire. Is Stannis going to gain enough power to hold influence over the realm? It is an intriguing thought, and brings to mind how Jon might be faced with an unprecedented (Plametos) challenge to bring both Ice and Fire under control.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

That's good for Elia, but we only have "Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen", don't we? Too vague, better not to specify when we have the three strong boys example that's definitive.

OMG not Elia, not again! ;) We know how Elia looked and how the Martells looked. I can't see what's so unclear. Like, maybe her skin was olive but still with a hint of being pale and in the right light her black eyes had that hint of purple if you truly squinted at them? OMGRRM ;).

To business, I have done all that, but since my land line has broken down, via mobile data plan and that has been tedious. Errors might have crept in despite all my care.

I have worked the suggestions from @Kingmonkey, @RumHam, JonCon's Red Beard, @Ygrain, @MtnLion, @The Twinslayer, @XSarellaX, @Greymoon, @JonSnow4President, @Rhaenys_Targaryen, @BearQueen87 and @sj4iy in. Thanks to all of you. (And to those I may have accidentally left out or misspelled - sorry! - the same).

Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?

Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.

Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?

Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?

He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.

There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?

We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons“ in the very first chapter?

In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon“ and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Nevertheless, two people can procreate without being married. Jon's legitimacy may matter to his future development in the story, it may or may not matter to his origins.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.

George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.

On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.

Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?

The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.

"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?

The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes“, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.

In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?

There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compliled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

eta: @BearQueen87's suggestion, see below.

[BearQueen87]

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother

i don't know that we necessarily need to add this right now, but as an extra point:

Cat thinks that whoever Jon Snow's mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely and deeply. Yet the only two women Ned ever thinks about are Cat and Lyanna. And in Ned I, we are told that Ned loved his sister Lyanna with all his heart.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Cat thinks that whoever Jon Snow's mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely and deeply. Yet the only two women Ned ever thinks about are Cat and Lyanna. And in Ned I, we are told that Ned loved his sister Lyanna with all his heart.

Nice! I like it. Will fetch the original quote...

However, there seems to be a strong, but hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

That should do.

[King Tyrion XX]

Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, Rhaegar died with the name of the lady he loved on his lips (later confirmed to be Lyanna via the app), Rhaegar crowning her queen of love and beauty, Rhaegar kidnapping her all suggest at least one way love. Of course, then there's Rhaegar taking a lance (penis) and using it place a crown (king) of blue flowers (blue flowers at the wall.....) in Lyanna's lap (womb). Rhaegar taking Lyanna to his tower of joy, and giving her kingsguard protection. At the very least, Rhaegar loved his sex slave. Lyanna's love of flowers, and crying at his singing (although less so) suggests that she loved him.

Lyanna died in a bed of blood. I don't think any reasonable person on these forums (note the operative word, reasonable) thinks she didn't give birth. If she didn't have sex with Rhaegar, who at least was attracted to her, the other options are really Whent, Hightower, or Dayne. As Ned respects all 3, I find it hard to believe they sexed up Lyanna. So, its either Rhaegar, or divine intervention (hence the Jesus line).

And someone rolls out the fan fiction app again. Nice.