R+L=J v.123

[BearQueen87]

1. I think we have to assume that there were at least some other people who were not Rhaegar's inner circle, but were nonetheless involved. I doubt Dayne would be happy doing the laundry at the Tower of Joy, and Whent would have made a terrible midwife (however many times he might have tried persuading Lyanna he was an accredited ob/gyn, the sick little f...), so there were probably a small number of trusted servants involved in the scheme. Trusting random n00b no indeed, but a trusted servant, a little Poderick all of Rhaegar's own, possibly.

2. I'm not sure what Ashara would have been doing at Storm's End. If she wasn't at Starfall, I'd think KL or Dragonstone more likely, though I favour KL and Ashara as Ned's source of information. I rather like the idea that Ned knew to go to the ToJ before he went to Storm's End to end the war, as that adds a little more tragedy to the whole duty vs. family thing.

I would go with Storm's End as the most likely source of the KG's info though. As far as we can tell the 3KG aren't surprised at the news of Storm's End falling, which suggests they have received news that beat Ned from Storm's End.

1. His little Poderick would be Lonmouth, no? (who I am now very suspicious of....)

2. KL was always my first thought for Ashara but if she was there and she told Ned where to find Lyanna, why does he take a detour to SE? (though, I like what you said about duty vs family) I also think Glover is a rather odd figure to take to the TOJ if Glover didn't have some insider information (like R visited him at the Black Cells before going off to the Trident)

[IceFire125]

Question regarding Ned's statement that he's lived his lies for 14 years. I've seen it thrown around on here a lot that Ned's lies refer to Jon being his son.

Ned goes on to talk more about the Sack, revealing truths that were not known. The entire conversation is about Ned telling Robert the truth of the Sack, reversing the lies that have been told since it occurred. So my question is, why does no one bring up the fact that he mentions this in relation to the Sack, not Lyanna or Rhaegar or Jon or anything? He starts things off by deciding he's going to tell the truth, then he mentions that he's been telling lies for 14. They're connected.

He could have told him the truth when the king visited Winterfell in AGOT... or have you forgotten about that? No matter, GRRM gave us the subtle yet straightforward hint anyway.

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire (Rhaegar reference, but we are not that familiar with him in the story yet)

...

Jon’s brothers and sisters had been seated with the royal children, beneath the raised platform where Lord and Lady Stark hosted the king and queen.

...

His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall

...

Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. “Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”

“I see.” His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”

Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.

He staggered away from Ser Jorah, making to join the three khals on the high bench.

Khal Drogo rose, spat out a dozen words in Dothraki, faster than Dany could understand, and pointed. “Khal Drogo says your place is not on the high bench,” Ser Jorah translated for her brother. “Khal Drogo says your place is there.”

Viserys glanced where the khal was pointing. At the back of the long hall, in a corner by the wall, deep in shadow so better men would not need to look on them, sat the lowest of the low; raw unblooded boys, old men with clouded eyes and stiff joints, the dim-witted and the maimed. Far from the meat, and farther from honor. “That is no place for a king,” her brother declared.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

As readers, we betray GRRM's amazing and creative subtleties and his 3 level type revelations when we ignore its basic premise and purpose, deny they exist when its plainly stated in the text.

[Kingmonkey]

Nice job KingMonkey. I'd like to maybe mention a few things.

1) Targ looks: There are a lot more than Baelor Breakspeak and Rhaenys. Maybe we could bullet point all of them?

A few more examples wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's necessary to list all of them. I think expanding the Great Bastards comment could be particularly fruitful though. Bittersteel is a particularly good example as he's half Targ, half first man (Blackwood) like Jon, and has black hair.

Might also be worth addressing the eye colour question a little, too?

[markg171]

He could have told him the truth when the king visited Winterfell in AGOT... or have you forgotten about that? No matter, GRRM gave us the subtle yet straightforward hint anyway.

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire (Rhaegar reference, but we are not that familiar with him in the story yet)

...

Jon’s brothers and sisters had been seated with the royal children, beneath the raised platform where Lord and Lady Stark hosted the king and queen.

...

His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall

...

Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. “Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”

“I see.” His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.”

Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.

He staggered away from Ser Jorah, making to join the three khals on the high bench.

Khal Drogo rose, spat out a dozen words in Dothraki, faster than Dany could understand, and pointed. “Khal Drogo says your place is not on the high bench,” Ser Jorah translated for her brother. “Khal Drogo says your place is there.”

Viserys glanced where the khal was pointing. At the back of the long hall, in a corner by the wall, deep in shadow so better men would not need to look on them, sat the lowest of the low; raw unblooded boys, old men with clouded eyes and stiff joints, the dim-witted and the maimed. Far from the meat, and farther from honor. “That is no place for a king,” her brother declared.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

As readers, we betray GRRM's amazing and creative subtleties and his 3 level type revelations when we ignore its basic premise and purpose, deny they exist when its plainly stated in the text.

I'm fine with people arguing all this stuff for R+L=J, I was just pointing out that when people try and use Ned saying he's been living lies for 14 years to support R+L=J, it doesn't work as he's talking in regards to the Sack and explicitly mentions that he's going to tell the truth of the Sack.

Everything else, sure. Just the living lies for 14 years should not be used to support R+L=J.

[BearQueen87]

A few more examples wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's necessary to list all of them. I think expanding the Great Bastards comment could be particularly fruitful though. Bittersteel is a particularly good example as he's half Targ, half first man (Blackwood) like Jon, and has black hair.

Might also be worth addressing the eye colour question a little, too?

Queen Alysanne had blue eyes, for a starter

[Kingmonkey]

1. His little Poderick would be Lonmouth, no? (who I am now very suspicious of....)

I was just thinking of some unnamed but trusted servant, but when it comes to Lonmouth, anything's possible. It's a bit puzzling we seem to have no information as to what he was doing during the rebellion, so he could very well have been Rhaegar's personal messenger.

2. KL was always my first thought for Ashara but if she was there and she told Ned where to find Lyanna, why does he take a detour to SE? (though, I like what you said about duty vs family) I also think Glover is a rather odd figure to take to the TOJ if Glover didn't have some insider information (like R visited him at the Black Cells before going off to the Trident)

The duty vs. family question is an important part of Ned's make-up, so it's tempting to think there was a significant event in his past relating to it. With the war still going on at Storm's End, would he rush to the Tower of Joy, or would he think that Storm's End is pretty much on the way there and he better finish off the war before seeing to a personal matter -- and then regret his decision for the rest of his life when he found Lyanna dying? Remember "I have made more mistakes than you could possibly imagine"?

I've never been entirely sure what to make of Glover. It's a little odd, for sure, but why would Rhaegar have told him where the ToJ was? It's often thought that having spent the best part of a year as a prisoner, Glover would be in a terrible state. Maybe he was well treated and was still pretty fit when he was released, and Ned just trusted him a lot. I think a significant question that has to be asked about Ethan Glover is why was he not killed with the rest of his party?

[markg171]

A few more examples wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's necessary to list all of them. I think expanding the Great Bastards comment could be particularly fruitful though. Bittersteel is a particularly good example as he's half Targ, half first man (Blackwood) like Jon, and has black hair.

Might also be worth addressing the eye colour question a little, too?

I don't think the eyes should be addressed. Ned is stated to have dark grey eyes too.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think the eyes should be addressed. Ned is stated to have dark grey eyes too.

Except everyone points to Jon's eyes and forget that Targs don't just have purple eyes. They have many colors, including dark ones. So yes, in a list of reasons why RLJ, it should be.

[markg171]

I was just thinking of some unnamed but trusted servant, but when it comes to Lonmouth, anything's possible. It's a bit puzzling we seem to have no information as to what he was doing during the rebellion, so he could very well have been Rhaegar's personal messenger.

The duty vs. family question is an important part of Ned's make-up, so it's tempting to think there was a significant event in his past relating to it. With the war still going on at Storm's End, would he rush to the Tower of Joy, or would he think that Storm's End is pretty much on the way there and he better finish off the war before seeing to a personal matter -- and then regret his decision for the rest of his life when he found Lyanna dying? Remember "I have made more mistakes than you could possibly imagine"?

I've never been entirely sure what to make of Glover. It's a little odd, for sure, but why would Rhaegar have told him where the ToJ was? It's often thought that having spent the best part of a year as a prisoner, Glover would be in a terrible state. Maybe he was well treated and was still pretty fit when he was released, and Ned just trusted him a lot. I think a significant question that has to be asked about Ethan Glover is why was he not killed with the rest of his party?

I think the Glovers were just a House that Ned particularly trusted. When Ned receives words that the Lannisters were the ones behind the murder attempt on Bran, he wants men from the Glovers and Talharts to fortify Moat Caillin. He was entrusting basically the entire defence of the north to them therefore as if you don't get past Moat Caillin, you don't get into the North.

Ethan was also Brandon's squire, so Ned probably personally knew him very well.

[markg171]

Except everyone points to Jon's eyes and forget that Targs don't just have purple eyes. They have many colors, including dark ones. So yes, in a list of reasons why RLJ, it should be.

Ahhh, my mistake. I thought you guys were saying that because Jon's eyes are dark, they might resemble Rhaegar's eyes that were purple.

If you're saying that he could just be another example as a Targ without purple, indigo, lilac (i.e Valyrian eyes) than yeah I have no problem with making a list of Targs without the traditional eyes.

[BearQueen87]

I think the Glovers were just a House that Ned particularly trusted. When Ned receives words that the Lannisters were the ones behind the murder attempt on Bran, he wants men from the Glovers and Talharts to fortify Moat Caillin. He was entrusting basically the entire defence of the north to them therefore as if you don't get past Moat Caillin, you don't get into the North.

Ethan was also Brandon's squire, so Ned probably personally knew him very well.

Yes but Glover had been in the black cells for over a year and then Ned takes him as part of his party of 7 to rescue Lyanna....he wouldn't be my first choice, especially since Ned left more able bodied soldiers at SE. Why not just take one of them? It's also curious that Aerys didn't kill Glover right after he killed Brandon and Rickard.

[Kingmonkey]

Ahhh, my mistake. I thought you guys were saying that because Jon's eyes are dark, they might resemble Rhaegar's eyes that were purple.

If you're saying that he could just be another example as a Targ without purple, indigo, lilac (i.e Valyrian eyes) than yeah I have no problem with making a list of Targs without the traditional eyes.

The purpose of the FAQ is not to provide an absolute proof, but rather to answer the questions commonly raised about the theory. We're not saying "Jon's eyes are dark, therefore he must be half Targ", we are saying "Jon's eye colour does not disprove that he is half Targ."

[markg171]

Yes but Glover had been in the black cells for over a year and then Ned takes him as part of his party of 7 to rescue Lyanna....he wouldn't be my first choice, especially since Ned left more able bodied soldiers at SE. Why not just take one of them? It's also curious that Aerys didn't kill Glover right after he killed Brandon and Rickard.

Well Ned took him to Storm's End first, not the TOJ. So he did pick him out of men from Storm's End.

I don't know what to make of Aerys keeping him alive though when he had no problem killing everyone else. The only thing plausible based solely off what we know (not any theories like Rhaegar told him or whatever which so far is unsupported), in my mind, is that he managed to beat whatever death Aerys had in mind for him. We see that Brandon was placed in a device that made him strangle himself trying to free Rickard, and that Rickard had to fight fire. Maybe Ethan was put in a trap too and beat it.

[BearQueen87]

Well Ned took him to Storm's End first, not the TOJ. So he did pick him out of men from Storm's End.

I don't know what to make of Aerys keeping him alive though when he had no problem killing everyone else. The only thing plausible based solely off what we know (not any theories like Rhaegar told him or whatever which so far is unsupported), in my mind, is that he managed to beat whatever death Aerys had in mind for him. We see that Brandon was placed in a device that made him strangle himself trying to free Rickard, and that Rickard had to fight fire. Maybe Ethan was put in a trap too and beat it.

If Glover had beat the machine, wouldn't someone else be alive too? It requires the person being strangled to be fighting toward something which is what chokes them to death. I mean, what is Glover moving toward, I guess, if not another person? Object? Ok...what object? See....lots-o-variables

And ok, let's say Glover was in better condition after a year in the black cells than most people would be. The question then is...why? And If he had won the trail (and again I have to wonder how) then why the Black Cells which are kept for the really terrible ones. If you're in the black cells, you aren't exactly being taken care of to the extent that a man could go off and fight a war after.

[Kingmonkey]

Queen Alysanne had blue eyes, for a starter

ok, how about this?

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look, as did Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys. The closest genetic match we have to Jon is Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers (Bittersteel) who was, like Jon, half Targ and half from a First Man descended house (Blackwood). Bittersteel had dark hair. The famed purple eyes of the Targaryens actually vary from lilac to very deep and dark purples, and in some cases aren't even purple (Valaar and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes). Jon's eyes are almost black, so give little away.

The simple answer is that if Jon did have the Targaryen looks, it would give the game away. Jon is only half Targaryen, and as we have seen, half Targaryens don't have to look Targaryen. GRRM actually addresses this ironically in A Game Of Thrones ch.13 when Tyrion thinks " He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." If Jon gets his Stark looks from his mother's side, it's actually his father who had left little of himself in his son.

[BearQueen87]

ok, how about this?

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look, as did Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys. The closest genetic match we have to Jon is Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers (Bittersteel) who was, like Jon, half Targ and half from a First Man descended house (Blackwood). Bittersteel had dark hair. The famed purple eyes of the Targaryens actually vary from lilac to very deep and dark purples, and in some cases aren't even purple (Valaar and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes). Jon's eyes are almost black, so give little away.

The simple answer is that if Jon did have the Targaryen looks, it would give the game away. Jon is only half Targaryen, and as we have seen, half Targaryens don't have to look Targaryen. GRRM actually addresses this ironically in A Game Of Thrones ch.13 when Tyrion thinks " He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." If Jon gets his Stark looks from his mother's side, it's actually his father who had left little of himself in his son.

I really like, though correction: Bloodraven (Brynden Rivers) is a Blackwood/Targ. Bittersteal is Bracken/Targ.

(and of course, BR is as far from Targ looks as one gets...)

[The Twinslayer]

Last thread there as some talk of changes to the FAQ at the start of the thread. I think this is a good idea, if only because there are a few questions that are frequently asked but aren't covered in the FAQ.The question of balance has been raised. I am fully in agreement with those who say it's simply not the place of that thread to offer counter-arguments opposing R+L=J. It should however answer those counter-arguments, and I think it's fair to say that without a balanced approach, you're not going to answer people's objections satisfactorily. There are places in that FAQ where the answers are quite honestly a touch dubious, presenting opinion as fact. We who support R+L=J should be prepared to show that R+L=J can stand up even with alternative interpretations where things are not explicit. The answers given should not be easily dismissed by people who don't already accept those interpretations.I have made an effort to re-write the FAQ with all this in mind.

This is a vast improvement. I have a few suggestions.

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

For this one I would say: "How can Jon be a Targaryen if his hand was burned by an ordinary flame? Doesn't it take wildfire or dragonflame to burn a Targaryen?

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eye?

I would replace this with: "AGOT says that the Targaryens have their 'heritage proclaimed in a striking (some say inhuman) beauty, with indigo or violet eyes and hair of silver-gold or platinum white.' How can Jon be a Targ if he is a plain-looking boy with brown hair and black eyes?"

Can we be sure polygamy is not illegal?

I would say: "Can we be sure polygamy is not illegal? Isn't it true that there have been no instances of Targaryen polygamy since Jaehaerys the Conciliator reconciled with the Faith and passed a new unified code of laws?"

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys or Rhaegar, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

I would change this to say: "Isn't there an SSM saying that the 3KG were at the tower of joy because that is where Rhaegar ordered them to be, and they have to obey his orders? (Note that this SSM is particularly important since it seems to be the basis for Ran's theory that Jon was not even present at the TOJ, so the KGs could not have been there to defend him -- so this should definitely make the FAQ)

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

I would add to this: And isn't there a precedent for a king's son coming before a king's grandson, as when Egg came before Maegor, his elder brother's son?

[markg171]

If Glover had beat the machine, wouldn't someone else be alive too? It requires the person being strangled to be fighting toward something which is what chokes them to death. I mean, what is Glover moving toward, I guess, if not another person? Object? Ok...what object? See....lots-o-variables

And ok, let's say Glover was in better condition after a year in the black cells than most people would be. The question then is...why? And If he had won the trail (and again I have to wonder how) then why the Black Cells which are kept for the really terrible ones. If you're in the black cells, you aren't exactly being taken care of to the extent that a man could go off and fight a war after.

My interpretation of the device that killed Brandon, was that it wouldn't actually do anything if you just sat still no? It was in trying to reach the sword that caused Brandon to be strangled. If Ethan was in the same thing and simply watched the other person die and didn't try and help out, he wouldn't have been strangled. Anyways, that's all I can think of for why he lived while everyone else died.

I'll freely admit though that Ethan surviving and Ned picking him to accompany him to the TOJ are odd, but until we get more information I'd rather not just create theories out of nothing.

[BearQueen87]

My interpretation of the device that killed Brandon, was that it wouldn't actually do anything if you just sat still no? It was in trying to reach the sword that caused Brandon to be strangled. If Ethan was in the same thing and simply watched the other person die and didn't try and help out, he wouldn't have been strangled. Anyways, that's all I can think of for why he lived while everyone else died.

I'll freely admit though that Ethan surviving and Ned picking him to accompany him to the TOJ are odd, but until we get more information I'd rather not just create theories out of nothing.

No, you're correct about the device. I guess I'm guessing that he'd try to save another human (and it's Aerys so I can see the Mad King pressuring him (via pain) to move toward human/object. But that's all highly speculative)

I don't think it's out of nothing because as you yourself say, it's odd. So then we question what is the reason for the oddity. Maybe Glover knew something (if R visited him in the black cells. We know curiously nothing about R's final visit home to the Red Keep); Maybe Glover was in better physical condition than we knew and wanted to save Brandon's sister since Brandon died in front of him (I think...?); maybe Glover knew it was suicide but didn't care after a year in the black cells...

[Kingmonkey]

Yes but Glover had been in the black cells for over a year and then Ned takes him as part of his party of 7 to rescue Lyanna....he wouldn't be my first choice, especially since Ned left more able bodied soldiers at SE. Why not just take one of them? It's also curious that Aerys didn't kill Glover right after he killed Brandon and Rickard.

I just started to have a moment of doubt about all this, and did a little looking things up.

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn.

As far as I can see, that's it. The Wiki has "Ethan presumably spent the majority of the war in the dungeons of King's Landing, until he was freed after the Sack of King's Landing by the Lannisters" but no citation.

Maybe Ethan Glover was simply spared because he was a squire? It doesn't appear clear who his father was, so his father might have been dead already, and he was fostered with the Starks. Or maybe it's as Markg171 suggests. Cat says "trials" plural. Perhaps Ethan and Glover Sr. were given the Rickard/Brandon treatment, but Ethan didn't strangle himself?

Plenty of questions, no answers. However I can't find any evidence other than supposition that Ethan was actually in the dungeons -- let alone the Black Cells -- at all. Anyone? Something in the app, perhaps?