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The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose Contd.


wolfmaid7

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I want to start this by saying the idea of Jon being Lya and Rheagar's son was very obvious to me.Honestly,in my mind if a person read the first two books without skipping POV's and pages surface wise it was the logical conclusion.But after the euphoria of that wore off and my job mind kicked in a few things with this didn't make sense to me. I still left it alone because i was very comfortable with my original conclusion.As the arguements and people braver than me when it comes to this topic those reservations surfaced again.



This OP is going to be relatively short and somewhat sweet.When speaking of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose;the events that eventually led to them...well ending up dead a consensus could never be reached about what actually happened and why.The back and forth from opposing views usually revolves and revolves and revoles around these:



1.Was passion,prophecy or politics the driving force behind the actions of these two?


a. If Rheagar was making a play to dipose his father who would gain or lose?


b. If his plan was to get support why abduct or allow to go with in such a way to make it harder to accomplish this?


c. Did something go wrong?


d.Hell was there even anything romantic going on between the two.Did they even "do the dance with no pants?"****


WB info



2.Why was the Kinguard at the TOJ? Were they there because they were fulfilling the first duty of the KG to protect the King?


a. Did the actions taken by them at the TOJ truly depict this "fundamental" KG duty?Was a King present?


b. Is it a matter of following orders they didn't like by a member of the royal family?


c.Was it just a last stand by the KG?



Yet these were no ordinary three.

They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.



Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?


Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."



"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.


"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.


"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.


"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."


"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."(


"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."


"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.


"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."


"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.



"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."



"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.



"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.




3.The validity of Ned's dream and recollection of the events at the TOJ.


a.I almost feel silly asking this but how trustworthy is Ned's "Fever dream?" That every detail hapened how it did,when it did.That is, was it one fluid sequence of events .



He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget.**** In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.......................(got,pg,423)


"He dreamt an old dream


In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life


They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life


He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years(got,pg.427).**** ( my interpretation of this is that he just recently began having these dreams after having them years ago...am i wrong?)




"Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.


And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.



"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming.***** ( was she in birth right at that moment?)



"Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.


"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.


"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "


"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.


Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.


"Lord Eddard?" A shadow stood over the bed.(pg,425)



"I was with her when she died,"Ned reminded the King............He could still here her sometimes.Promise me,she cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses.Promise me ,Ned. The fever had taken her strength.....................Ned remembered how she smiled then,how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life,rose petals spilling from her palm,dead and black

.After that he remebered nothing.They had found him still holding her body,silent with grief.The little Crannogman,Howland Reed,had taken her hand from his.Ned could recall none of it(AGOT,pg.44).

.****



4. Is there a valid alternative to the prevailing theory and conclusion that Jon Snow is the legitamate offspring the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose.



Questions i would like to know and excuse a simple mind such as myself ,i think about these things.Its just for my benefit.



Prevailing thought is that the KG is there to protect the King from harm and protect his secrets.All these things must mean a legitamate King in the person of Jon Snow must have been present.So with the above in mind and what i'm about to say that is a lot of damage control.I don't think any of the KG are experts at delivering babies so Lya must have had a couple of attendants wheter she had just given birth or not.



I'm not to in the loop theory wise on when this birth was to have occured in relation to Ned showing up, but if Jon was a couple of weeks old or something like that, given the readiness of the KG outside the tower they must have seen Ned's approach from a far.If your first job was to protect him and keep his secret ,shouldn't you have packed his arse up on a horse with an attendant and maybe one KG and made a break for it while the other two hold Ned and co off? I mean its along a pass and if your guarding you better well be guarding.



Also, and again i'm not sure of Ned's recollection but from what he said i gather.The dude was too numb and distraught to move for a while and there exist a possibility that other people arrived at the Tower form the "they found him" comment . I take it given Ned's emotional state no one else among the "they" who found him noticed a baby in that small tower. Lastly, the whole state of Lya being in a bed of blood is all wrong.What the frack happened? She either had attendants and they should be fired,or she delivered the baby herself.




I've provided these links by Mountain lion and Ygrain. These are their take on Ned's dream and the TOJ i thought it be only credible to look at what others are putting forward as solid interpretations.I'll be h ones i do have a bit of a problem with some of the interpretations and i'm sure they'll be brought up.



http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121738-rlj-v119/page-20#entry6548426


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117842-rlj-v-107/?p=6281332




What i hope is that we have a balanced discourse on the main points. I'm pretty sure i'm missing some of the arguements finer points and if i am feel free to correct me steer me on the right path if i've missed something.But the reason behind this is to start this conversation in an environment where we all can talk respectfully about it.Make queries and possibly come up with alternatives.



In the end i'm certain of one thing...That i have a headache.



Lets make this peaceful and forgive the ramblings at times.




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Prevailing thought is that the KG is there to protect the King from harm and protect his secrets.All these things must mean a legitamate King in the person of Jon Snow must have been present.

Well, this is an interesting point due to developments since the last Curious Case thread.

We now have the World book, and its statement that Aerys had already anointed Viserys his heir prior to the Sack.

Now, the KG certainly had news of the Sack by the time Ned showed up. This means they should have been well aware that baby Jon, if he was there and if he was Rhaegar's son, could not possibly be the Targaryen king, not according to the decree rendered by the unquestioned king (Aerys) to whom they had sworn their almighty vows. That king could only be Viserys.

My understanding is that the formal response to the above problem, from a certain thread, is to stick its fingers in its ears and sing lalalalalalala until people pretend the World book doesn't say that at all... or that it's meaningless, or something.

Of course, it's true that the World book is a steaming pile of crap in many respects, from its first two sentences on, and that is quite by design; it's written by a maester who in virtually all cases wasn't there and doesn't know and who is besides that trying to suck up to the post-Targ administration.

So, okay, perhaps he simply made up the business about Aerys and Viserys and it simply never happened.

But if that's so, it means the World book can't be trusted. In which case we're left wondering why any other story from the World book is accurate or can be believed... such as the "well-known tale" concerning how Rhaegar "fell upon" Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal. This, in the same certain thread mentioned above, seems generally to be seen as unquestioned gospel.

So basically, the World book is crap, except when it's the Bible?

Well, that's nothing new to the forums, which have elevated cherry-picking to an art form, sometimes going on to coat the cherries with bullshit which is then called gourmet chocolate.

Now, what the KG would have been doing at the ToJ in any case is quite mysterious if their job was to protect someone (anyone) since it's a bit far from the comforts of urban life, and certainly seems to have had no nearby medical facilities... such as would be crucial for either a dying girl or a newborn baby.

Why the KG would have ignored their needs, completely failing to protect them in any sense by keeping them there is... not a point that has ever been explained to my satisfaction. It seems like the KG, if bent on protection, would have carted the girl and/or the baby, assuming either or both were there, to someplace a great deal more civilized. And long before Ned showed up.

In fact, one might even say that by keeping the dying girl and newborn baby in this isolated location, the KG, so far from protecting them, were dramatically increasing the odds that harm would come to them.

Anybody got an explanation for why they'd do a kooky thing like that?

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Well, this is an interesting point due to developments since the last Curious Case thread.

We now have the World book, and its statement that Aerys had already anointed Viserys his heir prior to the Sack.

Now, the KG certainly had news of the Sack by the time Ned showed up. This means they should have been well aware that baby Jon, if he was there and if he was Rhaegar's son, could not possibly be the Targaryen king, not according to the decree rendered by the unquestioned king (Aerys) to whom they had sworn their almighty vows. That king could only be Viserys.

My understanding is that the formal response to the above problem, from a certain thread, is to stick its fingers in its ears and sing lalalalalalala until people pretend the World book doesn't say that at all... or that it's meaningless, or something.

Of course, it's true that the World book is a steaming pile of crap in many respects, from its first two sentences on, and that is quite by design; it's written by a maester who in virtually all cases wasn't there and doesn't know and who is besides that trying to suck up to the post-Targ administration.

So, okay, perhaps he simply made up the business about Aerys and Viserys and it simply never happened.

But if that's so, it means the World book can't be trusted. In which case we're left wondering why any other story from the World book is accurate or can be believed... such as the "well-known tale" concerning how Rhaegar "fell upon" Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal. This, in the same certain thread mentioned above, seems generally to be seen as unquestioned gospel.

So basically, the World book is crap, except when it's the Bible?

Well, that's nothing new to the forums, which have elevated cherry-picking to an art form, sometimes going on to coat the cherries with bullshit which is then called gourmet chocolate.

Now, what the KG would have been doing at the ToJ in any case is quite mysterious if their job was to protect someone (anyone) since it's a bit far from the comforts of urban life, and certainly seems to have had no nearby medical facilities... such as would be crucial for either a dying girl or a newborn baby.

Why the KG would have ignored their needs, completely failing to protect them in any sense by keeping them there is... not a point that has ever been explained to my satisfaction. It seems like the KG, if bent on protection, would have carted the girl and/or the baby, assuming either or both were there, to someplace a great deal more civilized. And long before Ned showed up.

In fact, one might even say that by keeping the dying girl and newborn baby in this isolated location, the KG, so far from protecting them, were dramatically increasing the odds that harm would come to them.

Anybody got an explanation for why they'd do a kooky thing like that?

Yeah this has been a hink for me if we have to take protecting a King if he was there.To me given there readiness outside the Tower they saw Ned approach in time to geer up for a fight.If it were me and my job was to protect him,keep his secrets and that superceded all other orders i as one of his guard would have taken him form Lya( seeing as he alone mattered) while the other two wait for Ned and Co to arrive.

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This is a very interesting line of thought to pursue. Taking your last point first, if Jon was being born at that moment (and I fully believe he was), that does not necessarily mean that he represented a legitimate king. Firstly, Rhaegar was still married to Elia, who (again assuming the death scene of Lyanna occurs in childbed) was not dead at the time of Jon's birth, or if dead had just died. While Aegon the Conqueror took two wives, that practice seems to have fallen out of favor by this time (and was not sanctioned by any religion or legal precedent of the realm). Jon, therefore, cannot be a legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna unless Rhaegar somehow put Elia aside, which no one mentions and so I assume did not happen. Secondly, at the time of Jon's birth, Aerys, Rhaegar, baby!Aegon, and Viserys were all still alive. Jon's claim to the throne, assuming he has one, could only come after all four of those men. I would argue, therefore, that the presence of the Kingsguard is solely the result of Rhaegar ordering them to stay. Once so ordered, they could not keep their vows and leave without express orders of a member of the royal family.



On the first point, I don't know if we have enough canon information yet to know for sure what Rhaegar's driving interest in Lyanna was. We're told that Lyanna was lovely, but that other women (including Cersei and perhaps Elia of Dorne) were prettier. That said, we can't rule out that Rhaegar was smitten with her based on her appearance. We have no evidence that he knew her well, or even at all, before the "kidnapping," so it seems unlikely that Rhaegar was deeply in love with her based on her personality. Her family was well-placed, but so far as we know, House Stark had no quarrel with the Targaryen line at the time of the tournament when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna--that would seem to rule out any attempt to ally the Targaryens with the Starks. Moreover, a cloak-and-dagger maneuver like Rhaegar pulled does not seem likely to endear the royal family to Lyanna's kin. The prophecy may have played some role in his choice of Lyanna, as Elia of Dorne could hardly be seen as "ice" of any sort. Barristan Selmy states that Rhaegar "loved his Lady Lyanna," but he also admits that few if any men really knew Rhaegar, and that Jon Connington and Arthur Dayne were both closer to Rhaegar than he ever was. His statement cannot be taken as fact, then, but as mere conjecture--it doesn't confirm or refute the presence of love on Rhaegar's part.



As for Lyanna, we know very little about her opinion on any of this. Ned tells Robert that Lyanna was stronger-willed than he realized, and he also tells Arya that Lyanna had some of the wolf in her (implying a certain wildness). We could interpret this to mean that she may have been a willing participant in her own "abduction," but we can't know for sure given the information we have. We do know that Rhaegar was willing to fight Robert over Lyanna's death, but in fairness, Robert left him little choice in the matter. We're told that Rhaegar whispered a woman's name as we died, but we don't know whose. It could have been "Lyanna," but it also might have been "Elia" or "Rhaenys" or "Rhaella," or some woman we haven't met yet.



There are so many ways to take this discussion, and I only hope that GRRM gives us more details at some juncture.


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I don't have anything intelligent to add to this. I just wanted to say that I, for one, cannot wait until Howland Reed shows up in the books.

Perhaps when he does we'll learn a little more about what went down at the TOJ.

I agree 100%. I was so disappointed that Bran didn't get taken there when they left Winterfell.

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Here's an idea, which I've posted elsewhere. Just something I continue to wonder about, and thought I'd offer up again here:

-------
I have, in the past, emphasized just how important it is for an author to maintain readers' trust. I still believe that relationship is important - and I do think that (at this point) many of Martin's readers will feel betrayed if it turns out that Rhaegar is not the baby-daddy. That said, if Jon's biological father is someone else, my stance on Martin will be more forgiving than most because it seems to me that he's given us fair warning - in Varys' Riddle of Power, and the parable of the Sealord's Cat, to name just a couple of specific places.

To a certain extent, I think Martin has engaged us all in a metafictional experiment, or a demonstration, of the dynamics of storytelling and interpretation. In the case of Lyanna and Jon Snow, the experience and conclusions drawn by the reader-audience become Martin's illustration of the shape that Westerosi public opinion might have taken, had Ned not kept his secrets and hidden Lyanna's child. Which is not to say that the commonly accepted story and Ned's truth would have amounted to the same thing. In fact, I think the point is that they would not. Just look at how things went over for Davos and Stannis:

"How did the commons take the news of Cersei's incest?"

"While we were among them they shouted for King Stannis. I cannot speak for what they said once we had sailed."

"So you do not think they believed?"

"When I was smuggling, I learned that some men believe everything and some nothing. We met both sorts. And there is another tale being spread as well—"

"Yes." Stannis bit off the word. "Selyse has given me horns, and tied a fool's bells to the end of each. My daughter fathered by a halfwit jester! A tale as vile as it is absurd. Renly threw it in my teeth when we met to parley. You would need to be as mad as Patchface to believe such a thing."

"That may be so, my liege... but whether they believe the story or no, they delight to tell it." In many places it had come before them, poisoning the well for their own true tale... (2.42, DAVOS)



What is the tale of Patchface and Selyse but a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall? Yet what chance does the truth stand, next to the power (and "delight") of such a story?

-------

I continue to wonder (just wonder) if Martin hasn't deliberately constructed a scenario in which his readers participate in this story by identifying with the common people and smallfolk of the Seven Kingdoms. Does it look like Jon is possibly the son of Rhaegar Targaryen? Well... yes. As soon as we consider the possibility that Lyanna Stark was his mother, that seems a natural and exciting conclusion to draw. In fact, it's exactly what Robert Baratheon would think... I mean, Rhaegar spent months raping her, right? So the child must be his. And the implications would be huge... it would make this a very, very exciting story, for better or for worse.

But is that actually what happened? Did Rhaegar ever lay hands on Lyanna Stark... really? Have we ever truly questioned that "fact?" Or did we just take Robert's word for it back in Book 1... and convince ourselves that Lyanna liked it? Is R+L=J anything more than a cleaned-up, "safe" retelling of Robert Baratheon's story?

If not, then it's not a bad idea to start looking for alternative candidates for Jon Snow's father. Because despite his intimidating stature on the battlefield, Robert Baratheon comes up rather short as a rational thinker. And in hindsight, it's difficult to imagine what rational, solid evidence he could have had at the time of the Rebellion to support the conclusion he drew about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

.

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In my opinion, putting 'Rhaegar raped Lyanna' all on Robert is misplaced. Brandon Stark rode off to King's Landing to demand Rhaegar give up Lyanna.



Why did he do so? Would he really have done so purely based on the tournament at Harrenhall and Lyanna's disappearance? I doubt it.



Rhaegar seems to have something to do with Lyanna's disappearance (either through misdirection, usually claimed to be by Baelish, or because he actually was involved and someone learned that). His own disappearance suggests he had a role to play. So, Lyanna vanished, with Rhaegar or at the hands of Rhaegar. Given she was a young woman of marriageable age, the usual explanation of WHY she would vanish, seems to be lust, children or marriage.



Marriage: We know she was less than thrilled by the prospect of marrying Robert Baratheon, but would she then willingly love a man (Rhaegar) doing the exact same thing (i.e. being unsatisfied with one woman)? Then again, if she despised Robert more than she dared tell her brother Eddard (Robert's best buddy), who would she turn to? Her father had arranged the match, her elder brother was an unknown quantity but seems unlikely to be too sympathetic after his own forced switch to Catelyn, and her second brother again was Robert's best buddy.



Rhaegar seems one of the best possible champions if Lyanna's goal was to run from Robert Baratheon. And I could totally see Rhaegar ordering the Kingsguard keeping her safe, if he had gone so far as to risk the realm to save Lyanna from an unhappy marriage (and isn't that just the kind of nonsense a poet and singer would do?). Lyanna's death might then be suicide or simple illness, I suppose. If this was what he did, showing up with Lyanna properly would not have prevented the war, so uncertainty might have been his cloak (Lyanna's return would have been a necessity of any peace settlement)... even if he may have hoped he could avoid outright war until Rickard and Brandon died and Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads.



Lust/Children: Lyanna was a wild girl, with something of the wolf in her. If Rhaegar was unhappy with the, by rumour, kind, gentle and boring Elia... Lyanna seems just the girl to draw his attention. His actions at Harrenhall would be quite fitting, thinking 'oh wow what a cool girl' (especially if she was the mystery knight). And as a prince of house Targaryen, would he, even the supposedly awesome Prince, have really let much else stand in the way of his desire? We know he was a bit on the monomanic side, so if he decided he wanted Lyanna (because of lust, or prophecies about ice and fire/three heads), I can see him going for that full-out, and someone might have noticed it informing Brandon.




In either case, the Starks would be pissed off, Brandon would go off to demand his sister back, and it'd be an easy conclusion for anyone to assume 'dashing prince abducts noble lady' means 'dashing prince makes love to/rapes noble lady' - it doesn't require anything from Robert Baratheon... just being sure it's rape requires Robert.


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Again I've posted this elsewhere, but for the sake of balancing Ygrain's theory as to what went down in the Prince's Pass, here's mine:



This is a fairly lengthy essay, so before we start let me say that on the basis of the available evidence I see no good reason at all to doubt that R+L=J. That’s not what’s at issue here.



I do, however, think that the tower of joy business may be misinterpreted, or rather that there is more than one viable interpretation of what was going on.



In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:



It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.



This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:




http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy



You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.


I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.




So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.



Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?



Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:



So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.



It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.



Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do later, perhaps years later, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.



All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?



Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:



http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm


Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.



Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.



Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.



So let’s look at what happens:



"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.


"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.


"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell



The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.



"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."


"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."



Here Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.



"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."


"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.



Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.



If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.



Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.



So why are they at the tower?



The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.



As to why they fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think it’s reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.



We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.



Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.



It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.



We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.



The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells



And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."



That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him. This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

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Again I've posted this elsewhere, but for the sake of balancing Ygrain's theory as to what went down in the Prince's Pass, here's mine:

This is a fairly lengthy essay, so before we start let me say that on the basis of the available evidence I see no good reason at all to doubt that R+L=J. That’s not what’s at issue here.

I do, however, think that the tower of joy business may be misinterpreted, or rather that there is more than one viable interpretation of what was going on.

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do later, perhaps years later, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

I have a slightly different interpretation of the ToJ conversation that I'll put out here - fair warning, in that it requires you to step back a bit and look at it from the point of Tywin being the true victor via his treachery and Bobert being more or less the figurehead of Lannister puppetry. It's my speculation that Tywin orchestrated this whole rebellion from the beginning and was playing both factions off each other, but for now I'll just stick to ToJ.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

This is pretty straightforward. Had the KG been fighting at the Trident, they possibly would have prevented Bob from slaying Rhaegar - a death that I suspect wasn't supposed to happen due to prior agreement between throne conspirators. If you piece together all the convos about the Robellion from the different players, it's pretty evident that Aerys and Aerys loyalists were the targets here....Rhaegar not so much. I think it is entirely possible that whatever Rhaegar's plan was, Tywin was claiming loyalty to it, a claim that was passed on to his KG in the loop of the plan, and Tywin then played his card with the rebels and instructed Robert to kill him in battle instead. I find it interesting that Rhaegar begs Aerys to summon Tywin to their aid, meaning that something was giving Rhaegar the impression that Tywin was on their side, yet we have Ned's POV mentioning being forced to make common cause with Lannisters in the past, which indicates to me that Tywin had some chips on the rebel side of the table too. Anyway, the Big Three making this statement tells me that they realize Rhaegar's death by the Usurper is due to betrayal.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

In this passage, the "yet" stands out for me. I believe these KG - even Hightower - had aligned themselves with Rhaegar's cause....but because they are still KG who swore an oath, they removed themselves to a place far away so that they would not be obligated to fulfill the first duty: Protect the king. They can't be expected to uphold that vow if they aren't physically there.

Enter Jaime - the newest and youngest member of the KG, the son of the king's bitterest rival, the sole KG that Rhaegar himself commanded to stay behind to guard Aerys. The plan was that Aerys was going to be killed in KL and Jaime Lannister was supposed to die upholding the first duty. Also, had the 3 KG been there to protect Aerys and have him emerge victorious, Jaime (and everyone else) would have burned in wildfire (something Ned would not have known about, but Hightower possibly did). Jaime's death defending Aerys means that all vows have been upheld and for the most part, everyone acted honorably while still getting the desired result. (Ned/Robert make note in AGOT that one of them would have killed Aerys regardless had Jaime not beat them to the punch, and Jaime questions a couple of times in his POVs "What right does the wolf have to judge the lion?" in context of Ned walking into the throne room to see Jaime sitting above Aerys' corpse, so it's pretty clear that Aerys was not expected to survive.)

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Again, I think this is a nod to Rhaegar's conspiracy - a planned unification of forces that was turned on its ear with Rhaegar's unforseen death. Had Rhaegar survived and his cause not been betrayed, conditions for fealty would have been met. However, the game changed, conditions were not met, and the KG turned their backs on those that they thought were complicit in that betrayal.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

I know this gives people fits, but I think this passage does indicate that there was/is still someone to protect. I don't think it's necessarily a legitimate baby Jon, however.

Anyway, it has long been my suspicion that Ned's guilt and torment and angst over his "lies" of 14 years is in no small part related to his role in the rebellion - either acting as a double agent of sorts on his own, or through his actions unintentionally bringing about the downfall of Rhaegar Targaryen. There's a Rhaegar/Ned connection reflected in the ToJ dialogue but it's not (solely/primarily) about Rhaegar being the babydaddy of Lya's kid.

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This is a very interesting line of thought to pursue. Taking your last point first, if Jon was being born at that moment (and I fully believe he was), that does not necessarily mean that he represented a legitimate king. Firstly, Rhaegar was still married to Elia, who (again assuming the death scene of Lyanna occurs in childbed) was not dead at the time of Jon's birth, or if dead had just died. While Aegon the Conqueror took two wives, that practice seems to have fallen out of favor by this time (and was not sanctioned by any religion or legal precedent of the realm). Jon, therefore, cannot be a legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna unless Rhaegar somehow put Elia aside, which no one mentions and so I assume did not happen. Secondly, at the time of Jon's birth, Aerys, Rhaegar, baby!Aegon, and Viserys were all still alive. Jon's claim to the throne, assuming he has one, could only come after all four of those men. I would argue, therefore, that the presence of the Kingsguard is solely the result of Rhaegar ordering them to stay. Once so ordered, they could not keep their vows and leave without express orders of a member of the royal family.

On the first point, I don't know if we have enough canon information yet to know for sure what Rhaegar's driving interest in Lyanna was. We're told that Lyanna was lovely, but that other women (including Cersei and perhaps Elia of Dorne) were prettier. That said, we can't rule out that Rhaegar was smitten with her based on her appearance. We have no evidence that he knew her well, or even at all, before the "kidnapping," so it seems unlikely that Rhaegar was deeply in love with her based on her personality. Her family was well-placed, but so far as we know, House Stark had no quarrel with the Targaryen line at the time of the tournament when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna--that would seem to rule out any attempt to ally the Targaryens with the Starks. Moreover, a cloak-and-dagger maneuver like Rhaegar pulled does not seem likely to endear the royal family to Lyanna's kin. The prophecy may have played some role in his choice of Lyanna, as Elia of Dorne could hardly be seen as "ice" of any sort. Barristan Selmy states that Rhaegar "loved his Lady Lyanna," but he also admits that few if any men really knew Rhaegar, and that Jon Connington and Arthur Dayne were both closer to Rhaegar than he ever was. His statement cannot be taken as fact, then, but as mere conjecture--it doesn't confirm or refute the presence of love on Rhaegar's part.

As for Lyanna, we know very little about her opinion on any of this. Ned tells Robert that Lyanna was stronger-willed than he realized, and he also tells Arya that Lyanna had some of the wolf in her (implying a certain wildness). We could interpret this to mean that she may have been a willing participant in her own "abduction," but we can't know for sure given the information we have. We do know that Rhaegar was willing to fight Robert over Lyanna's death, but in fairness, Robert left him little choice in the matter. We're told that Rhaegar whispered a woman's name as we died, but we don't know whose. It could have been "Lyanna," but it also might have been "Elia" or "Rhaenys" or "Rhaella," or some woman we haven't met yet.

There are so many ways to take this discussion, and I only hope that GRRM gives us more details at some juncture.

I agree that them being "ordered" seems more likely especially taken in context and as a whole the fact that they were there following that order didn't seem to please them.It seemed they rather had been somewhere else than at the Tower

I myself given what happened at the tourney and then what we are told about Rheagar's suppossed abduction of Lya there's nothing to connect them in between or that Rheagar spent close to a year with Lya and 3 other dudes in a small tower.

To the last i think this get overlooked a bit and we kind of do know a bit about Lya.She is compared to Arya in more ways than one and from some sources in the WB says that she had "boyish looks".She like Arya was a Tom Boy and we don't know if she was even interested in anyone romantically fareless Rheagar. Not to say that her being a Tom boy means she cant have romantic feelings for anyone just that she seemed the type like Arya to have her mind elsewhere other than "boys".

Here's an idea, which I've posted elsewhere. Just something I continue to wonder about, and thought I'd offer up again here:

-------

I have, in the past, emphasized just how important it is for an author to maintain readers' trust. I still believe that relationship is important - and I do think that (at this point) many of Martin's readers will feel betrayed if it turns out that Rhaegar is not the baby-daddy. That said, if Jon's biological father is someone else, my stance on Martin will be more forgiving than most because it seems to me that he's given us fair warning - in Varys' Riddle of Power, and the parable of the Sealord's Cat, to name just a couple of specific places.

To a certain extent, I think Martin has engaged us all in a metafictional experiment, or a demonstration, of the dynamics of storytelling and interpretation. In the case of Lyanna and Jon Snow, the experience and conclusions drawn by the reader-audience become Martin's illustration of the shape that Westerosi public opinion might have taken, had Ned not kept his secrets and hidden Lyanna's child. Which is not to say that the commonly accepted story and Ned's truth would have amounted to the same thing. In fact, I think the point is that they would not. Just look at how things went over for Davos and Stannis:

"How did the commons take the news of Cersei's incest?"

"While we were among them they shouted for King Stannis. I cannot speak for what they said once we had sailed."

"So you do not think they believed?"

"When I was smuggling, I learned that some men believe everything and some nothing. We met both sorts. And there is another tale being spread as well"

"Yes." Stannis bit off the word. "Selyse has given me horns, and tied a fool's bells to the end of each. My daughter fathered by a halfwit jester! A tale as vile as it is absurd. Renly threw it in my teeth when we met to parley. You would need to be as mad as Patchface to believe such a thing."

"That may be so, my liege but whether they believe the story or no, they delight to tell it." In many places it had come before them, poisoning the well for their own true tale... (2.42, DAVOS)

What is the tale of Patchface and Selyse but a mummer's trick, a shadow on the wall? Yet what chance does the truth stand, next to the power (and "delight") of such a story?

-------

I continue to wonder (just wonder) if Martin hasn't deliberately constructed a scenario in which his readers participate in this story by identifying with the common people and smallfolk of the Seven Kingdoms. Does it look like Jon is possibly the son of Rhaegar Targaryen? Well... yes. As soon as we consider the possibility that Lyanna Stark was his mother, that seems a natural and exciting conclusion to draw. In fact, it's exactly what Robert Baratheon would think... I mean, Rhaegar spent months raping her, right? So the child must be his. And the implications would be huge... it would make this a very, very exciting story, for better or for worse.

But is that actually what happened? Did Rhaegar ever lay hands on Lyanna Stark... really? Have we ever truly questioned that "fact?" Or did we just take Robert's word for it back in Book 1... and convince ourselves that Lyanna liked it? Is R+L=J anything more than a cleaned-up, "safe" retelling of Robert Baratheon's story?

If not, then it's not a bad idea to start looking for alternative candidates for Jon Snow's father. Because despite his intimidating stature on the battlefield, Robert Baratheon comes up rather short as a rational thinker. And in hindsight, it's difficult to imagine what rational, solid evidence he could have had at the time of the Rebellion to support the conclusion he drew about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

.

Human behavior at its best to good old rumour mill.I wonder where Robert got the idea that Rheagar raped Lya from. Someone must have planted that idea in his mind and i'm assuming Lya's maidenhead and lack there off or even if she gave birth shouldn't the silent sisters would have figured that out.Then again they don't speak so any secrets would die with them.

But if only Howland and Ned survived the fight at the tower,then Ned told him that :dunno:

If she was at Starfall damage control in terms of what was getting out would be a bit more hard to muster.And for a while it seems Ned was a bit out of it given the clear gaps in his memory.

In my opinion, putting 'Rhaegar raped Lyanna' all on Robert is misplaced. Brandon Stark rode off to King's Landing to demand Rhaegar give up Lyanna.

Why did he do so? Would he really have done so purely based on the tournament at Harrenhall and Lyanna's disappearance? I doubt it.

Rhaegar seems to have something to do with Lyanna's disappearance (either through misdirection, usually claimed to be by Baelish, or because he actually was involved and someone learned that). His own disappearance suggests he had a role to play. So, Lyanna vanished, with Rhaegar or at the hands of Rhaegar. Given she was a young woman of marriageable age, the usual explanation of WHY she would vanish, seems to be lust, children or marriage.

Marriage: We know she was less than thrilled by the prospect of marrying Robert Baratheon, but would she then willingly love a man (Rhaegar) doing the exact same thing (i.e. being unsatisfied with one woman)? Then again, if she despised Robert more than she dared tell her brother Eddard (Robert's best buddy), who would she turn to? Her father had arranged the match, her elder brother was an unknown quantity but seems unlikely to be too sympathetic after his own forced switch to Catelyn, and her second brother again was Robert's best buddy.

Rhaegar seems one of the best possible champions if Lyanna's goal was to run from Robert Baratheon. And I could totally see Rhaegar ordering the Kingsguard keeping her safe, if he had gone so far as to risk the realm to save Lyanna from an unhappy marriage (and isn't that just the kind of nonsense a poet and singer would do?). Lyanna's death might then be suicide or simple illness, I suppose. If this was what he did, showing up with Lyanna properly would not have prevented the war, so uncertainty might have been his cloak (Lyanna's return would have been a necessity of any peace settlement)... even if he may have hoped he could avoid outright war until Rickard and Brandon died and Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads.

Lust/Children: Lyanna was a wild girl, with something of the wolf in her. If Rhaegar was unhappy with the, by rumour, kind, gentle and boring Elia... Lyanna seems just the girl to draw his attention. His actions at Harrenhall would be quite fitting, thinking 'oh wow what a cool girl' (especially if she was the mystery knight). And as a prince of house Targaryen, would he, even the supposedly awesome Prince, have really let much else stand in the way of his desire? We know he was a bit on the monomanic side, so if he decided he wanted Lyanna (because of lust, or prophecies about ice and fire/three heads), I can see him going for that full-out, and someone might have noticed it informing Brandon.

In either case, the Starks would be pissed off, Brandon would go off to demand his sister back, and it'd be an easy conclusion for anyone to assume 'dashing prince abducts noble lady' means 'dashing prince makes love to/rapes noble lady' - it doesn't require anything from Robert Baratheon... just being sure it's rape requires Robert.

Again I've posted this elsewhere, but for the sake of balancing Ygrain's theory as to what went down in the Prince's Pass, here's mine:

This is a fairly lengthy essay, so before we start let me say that on the basis of the available evidence I see no good reason at all to doubt that R+L=J. That’s not what’s at issue here.

I do, however, think that the tower of joy business may be misinterpreted, or rather that there is more than one viable interpretation of what was going on.

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do later, perhaps years later, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

As to why they fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think it’s reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him. This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

I'm liking this more and more the whole last bit for honor.

I have a slightly different interpretation of the ToJ conversation that I'll put out here - fair warning, in that it requires you to step back a bit and look at it from the point of Tywin being the true victor via his treachery and Bobert being more or less the figurehead of Lannister puppetry. It's my speculation that Tywin orchestrated this whole rebellion from the beginning and was playing both factions off each other, but for now I'll just stick to ToJ.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

This is pretty straightforward. Had the KG been fighting at the Trident, they possibly would have prevented Bob from slaying Rhaegar - a death that I suspect wasn't supposed to happen due to prior agreement between throne conspirators. If you piece together all the convos about the Robellion from the different players, it's pretty evident that Aerys and Aerys loyalists were the targets here....Rhaegar not so much. I think it is entirely possible that whatever Rhaegar's plan was, Tywin was claiming loyalty to it, a claim that was passed on to his KG in the loop of the plan, and Tywin then played his card with the rebels and instructed Robert to kill him in battle instead. I find it interesting that Rhaegar begs Aerys to summon Tywin to their aid, meaning that something was giving Rhaegar the impression that Tywin was on their side, yet we have Ned's POV mentioning being forced to make common cause with Lannisters in the past, which indicates to me that Tywin had some chips on the rebel side of the table too. Anyway, the Big Three making this statement tells me that they realize Rhaegar's death by the Usurper is due to betrayal.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

In this passage, the "yet" stands out for me. I believe these KG - even Hightower - had aligned themselves with Rhaegar's cause....but because they are still KG who swore an oath, they removed themselves to a place far away so that they would not be obligated to fulfill the first duty: Protect the king. They can't be expected to uphold that vow if they aren't physically there.

Enter Jaime - the newest and youngest member of the KG, the son of the king's bitterest rival, the sole KG that Rhaegar himself commanded to stay behind to guard Aerys. The plan was that Aerys was going to be killed in KL and Jaime Lannister was supposed to die upholding the first duty. Also, had the 3 KG been there to protect Aerys and have him emerge victorious, Jaime (and everyone else) would have burned in wildfire (something Ned would not have known about, but Hightower possibly did). Jaime's death defending Aerys means that all vows have been upheld and for the most part, everyone acted honorably while still getting the desired result. (Ned/Robert make note in AGOT that one of them would have killed Aerys regardless had Jaime not beat them to the punch, and Jaime questions a couple of times in his POVs "What right does the wolf have to judge the lion?" in context of Ned walking into the throne room to see Jaime sitting above Aerys' corpse, so it's pretty clear that Aerys was not expected to survive.)

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Again, I think this is a nod to Rhaegar's conspiracy - a planned unification of forces that was turned on its ear with Rhaegar's unforseen death. Had Rhaegar survived and his cause not been betrayed, conditions for fealty would have been met. However, the game changed, conditions were not met, and the KG turned their backs on those that they thought were complicit in that betrayal.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

I know this gives people fits, but I think this passage does indicate that there was/is still someone to protect. I don't think it's necessarily a legitimate baby Jon, however.

Anyway, it has long been my suspicion that Ned's guilt and torment and angst over his "lies" of 14 years is in no small part related to his role in the rebellion - either acting as a double agent of sorts on his own, or through his actions unintentionally bringing about the downfall of Rhaegar Targaryen. There's a Rhaegar/Ned connection reflected in the ToJ dialogue but it's not (solely/primarily) about Rhaegar being the babydaddy of Lya's kid.

The Tywin angle is pretty intriguing and my mind goes back to the Defiance of Duskendale . When Tywind put the plan to the Small Council to get into the city Lord Tywind in response to Lord Darklyn possibly taking Aerys life he responded " He may or he may not and if he does we have a better king right here" .Whereupon he raised his hand to indicate Prince Rheagar(WB,pg.119).So i take it not only was he willing to risk Aerys,so was Rheagar who apparently was there when he said it.Food for thought.

As to the KG possibly protecting someone their choices were a bit odd and in fact from where i sit posed more of a danger.

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As you may know, I never liked R+L=J. My main reason for this is that IMHO Jon Snow belongs to ice and the old gods and this would not fit with being half Targaryen (mayhaps this is the Snow knot that keeps GRRM from writing TWoW?).

That being said, I have the following issues with R+L=J that Ygrain and Mt.Lion could not resolve with their interpretations (though they tried hard):

- we do not have any proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex

- if so, we do not have any proof that Lyanna was pregnant

- if so, we do not know that Lyanna gave birth to a living child

- if so, we do not know the child was male

Additionally,

- Ned Stark and Howland Reed took down the Tower of Joy after the shootout. This takes some time, a baby would have starved

- a ride to Starfall after this takes additional time, the baby starves again

- if you bring in Wylla the wetnurse who was at the ToJ (no proof whatsoever), I will quote Tywin Lannister: Someone always tells

- just imagining Ned Stark and Howland Reed riding into Starfall with a twice starved baby, and Lyanna's decomposing body kills R+L=J for me

If Lyanna, baby Jon Snow and a wetnurse had been at the ToJ, wouldn't it have been much more save and unsuspicious to send Howland Reed, the baby and the wetnurse to a save place, and have Ned return Dawn to House Dayne?

So, why did the kingsguard fight?

Because they were ordered by Rhaegar, in case he wouldn't survive, to

- die fighting as well

- kill Lyanna so Robert won't get her (if she was at the ToJ)

- kill Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark in no particular order

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As you may know, I never liked R+L=J. My main reason for this is that IMHO Jon Snow belongs to ice and the old gods and this would not fit with being half Targaryen (mayhaps this is the Snow knot that keeps GRRM from writing TWoW?).

That being said, I have the following issues with R+L=J that Ygrain and Mt.Lion could not resolve with their interpretations (though they tried hard):

- we do not have any proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex

- if so, we do not have any proof that Lyanna was pregnant

- if so, we do not know that Lyanna gave birth to a living child

- if so, we do not know the child was male

Additionally,

- Ned Stark and Howland Reed took down the Tower of Joy after the shootout. This takes some time, a baby would have starved

- a ride to Starfall after this takes additional time, the baby starves again

- if you bring in Wylla the wetnurse who was at the ToJ (no proof whatsoever), I will quote Tywin Lannister: Someone always tells

- just imagining Ned Stark and Howland Reed riding into Starfall with a twice starved baby, and Lyanna's decomposing body kills R+L=J for me

If Lyanna, baby Jon Snow and a wetnurse had been at the ToJ, wouldn't it have been much more save and unsuspicious to send Howland Reed, the baby and the wetnurse to a save place, and have Ned return Dawn to House Dayne?

So, why did the kingsguard fight?

Because they were ordered by Rhaegar, in case he wouldn't survive, to

- die fighting as well

- kill Lyanna so Robert won't get her (if she was at the ToJ)

- kill Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark in no particular order

Do we know for sure that Howland Reed accompanied Ned to Starfall? I don't remember that detail from the books, though I may have missed it. I do agree that it would make much more sense to keep a newborn baby and wetnurse in one place rather than to drag them all the way down to Dorne and then back up to Winterfell.

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I'm rereading what is said ot the ToJ, and I'm seeing more and more clearly that nobody was staying there. The KG were sentinels.



To start with, it's described as "a long fallen tower." That doesn't seem a place to stay.



Then, the KG say they weren't on the Trident, or they were far away from KL. They didn't seem to be hiding, they were facing Ned. Reaching that point, they had nothing to conceal in ToJ, they could have said something like. "We've been staying here, guarding your sister. Btw, you may come in and say her goodby before we kill you."



They don't say anything of the sort, because nobody else was there, and they hadn't been there. As the text says, there came seven plus three, and only two got out alive.



So, what were they doing there? To me, ToJ is the equivalent to that place in Sterling Pass where Jon met Ygritte: a paramount place where to watch the pass and impede those who intend to cross it. The wildlings put three sentinels, and then Quorin left one man in their withdrawall, with the untold instruction of resisting until death.



Accordingly, the KG were protecting somebody who wasn't there. It's commonly believed that they protected Jon, but that's not too convincing. In fact, it was Ned who took care of Jon and raised him. If they tried to kill Ned, it had been a poor forecast.



And if they were protecting someone else that Jon, who could it be? Imho, only Aegon. Or who else?



Summing up: the KG were keeping the pass, in order to protect a fleeing Aegon from "the Usurper's dogs."


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I'm rereading what is said ot the ToJ, and I'm seeing more and more clearly that nobody was staying there. The KG were sentinels.

To start with, it's described as "a long fallen tower." That doesn't seem a place to stay.

Then, the KG say they weren't on the Trident, or they were far away from KL. They didn't seem to be hiding, they were facing Ned. Reaching that point, they had nothing to conceal in ToJ, they could have said something like. "We've been staying here, guarding your sister. Btw, you may come in and say her goodby before we kill you."

They don't say anything of the sort, because nobody else was there, and they hadn't been there. As the text says, there came seven plus three, and only two got out alive.

So, what were they doing there? To me, ToJ is the equivalent to that place in Sterling Pass where Jon met Ygritte: a paramount place where to watch the pass and impede those who intend to cross it. The wildlings put three sentinels, and then Quorin left one man in their withdrawall, with the untold instruction of resisting until death.

Accordingly, the KG were protecting somebody who wasn't there. It's commonly believed that they protected Jon, but that's not too convincing. In fact, it was Ned who took care of Jon and raised him. If they tried to kill Ned, it had been a poor forecast.

And if they were protecting someone else that Jon, who could it be? Imho, only Aegon. Or who else?

Summing up: the KG were keeping the pass, in order to protect a fleeing Aegon from "the Usurper's dogs."

I think this is very reasonable, and makes a decent amount of sense out of an otherwise nonsensical scenario. The Aegon question intrigues me. While we still don't have enough information to say positively that he was there, it does in many ways seem the most logical conclusion to draw - especially if we are to credit Rhaegar with being a "dutiful" and above all "able" planner. I even like your idea, finger, that sending Aegon south could have been Rhaegar's price for returning to King's Landing - though I'm not sure why Varys would have needed the tanner's son (the Pisswater Prince), if not to conceal Aegon's absence from the king. Still, what I like about it is that it makes sense to me that Rhaegar would have wanted to avoid a situation in which both he and his son were in the Red Keep at the same time.

Regardless, the endless debates and discussions concerning polygamy and the parsing of hypothetical KG vows look like a massive waste of time to me. They unnecessarily complicate reader theories, and wander far afield of Martin's own story. If Aegon were at Starfall (or headed that way), it would simplify a lot. Otherwise, Black Crow's ronin theory works just fine as an explanation for the encounter at the tower of joy.

.

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Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do later, perhaps years later, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

This theory doesn't seem to work because Ned also remembers burying the Kingsguard, and he used the stones from the ToJ to do so. He remembers the exact # of cairns.

If he met them on the road, this means he hauled their bodies all the way back to the tower. It also means he hauled his dead companions there. This is, of course, not reasonable.

You say:

"but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months."

I agree with your general description of how watchtowers are. I don't know where you got the notion that it is out in the open, not particularly hidden, however. Where is the evidence for this?

If Rhaegar spent time there, what's to say he didn't spruce the place up a bit? In fact, given Lyanna's pregnancy we should assume he did exactly this rather than assuming something far more complicated.(and he would probably do this even without her pregnancy. He's the Prince and she's the daughter of a high lord. There's little reason to assume the place was as Spartan as it would've been initially).

Even if he didn't, one very common theory that I'm sure you're aware of is the notion that Wylla was present at the ToJ, as the notion of Lyanna pregnant with no one to aid with a birthing is ridiculous. This makes way more sense than the KG arguing over who will take care of the pregnant woman and/or child as well.

As far as the presence of "others", this is also easily explained. First, Wylla again. Second, Ned and his party going to Dorne to look for his sister... without a guide? Doubtful. On top of that there is the possibility for other serving men/women. A single groom or squire could've been there and remained unmentioned. The presence of such are often disregarded by Lords, even those such as Lord Eddard.

I'm also struck by your reliance on Ned's memories of words spoken as key pieces of evidence. The exact wording of what transpired between the two parties should be among the most questionable, while the details of locations should be among the least questionable, the least likely to be mis-remembered.

Furthermore, and this is a point I've never seen anywhere else: Ned remembers that Rhaegar called the place "the tower of joy". Ned clearly didn't learn that from Rhaegar himself. The best (and perhaps only) logical source is Lyanna. Lyanna told him, before she died, the name of the place. The idea that Ned is mistaking this for Starfall is too much of a stretch, I think.

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I would argue, therefore, that the presence of the Kingsguard is solely the result of Rhaegar ordering them to stay. Once so ordered, they could not keep their vows and leave without express orders of a member of the royal family.

:agree:

Which rather tidily explains this interview exchange:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

In another thread, you will see it suggested that GRRM's response above, about orders, is ambiguous as to time, and that he meant the point when Rhaegar issued those orders (weeks before Jon was born).

But the boldfaced portion makes that plainly impossible by clearly establishing the timeframe: the day Ned found the TOJ. Which is why, in the other thread, they like to delete the question and just quote GRRM's answer.

On top of that there is the possibility for other serving men/women.

In this case, though, it would have been absolutely critical to Ned that the secret of Jon's parents not become a public matter. If there were servants of this sort, then -- assuming R+L=J -- Ned would have had to cross his fingers and pray not a single one ever revealed the exceedingly juicy gossip that for weeks or months, Lyanna Stark had been holed up in the TOJ pregnant with Rhaegar's baby. Because if that news ever got out, goodnight sweet prince.

But Ned doesn't seem to have had that concern. Certainly no such gossip ever did get out, or life would have gotten hard for Ned and Jon a lot faster than it did.

The same reasoning makes it hard for me to believe Lyanna, if pregnant with Rhaegar's baby, spent any significant amount of time in Starfall or anywhere Starfall-like (which is to say, overrun with servants and others who might discover the secret).

Along similar lines, one has to wonder how in the world someone as ultra-recognizable as Rhaegar even got Lyanna all the way to the TOJ, a distance of roughly a thousand miles, at a time when their disappearance would have been the hottest news on Westerosi CNN.

"Today is day twenty-four since Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark, and still there is no news of their whereabouts... King Aerys has suggested he wants to make Prince Rhaegar his Hand, going on to beg his vanished son in an interview 'Rhaegar, please come home.'"

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In this case, though, it would have been absolutely critical to Ned that the secret of Jon's parents not become a public matter. If there were servants of this sort, then -- assuming R+L=J -- Ned would have had to cross his fingers and pray not a single one ever revealed the exceedingly juicy gossip that for weeks or months, Lyanna Stark had been holed up in the TOJ pregnant with Rhaegar's baby. Because if that news ever got out, goodnight sweet prince.

But Ned doesn't seem to have had that concern. Certainly no such gossip ever did get out, or life would have gotten hard for Ned and Jon a lot faster than it did.

The same reasoning makes it hard for me to believe Lyanna, if pregnant with Rhaegar's baby, spent any significant amount of time in Starfall or anywhere Starfall-like (which is to say, overrun with servants and others who might discover the secret).

No matter what, even if you don't think it absurd that Ned and Howland alone took care of this child, who is going to stand behind the idea that that no one helped Lyanna birth it?

Yet no reasonable theory I'm aware of can get around this, so we must accept that, despite the danger of "news getting out", this was taken care of somehow. Perhaps this Wylla person is extremely devout and Ned got her to swear a holy oath. Who knows? This is where we rely on GRRM to be creative, which is a safe bet.

We've got room for George to be creative with the control of information and rumor aspects of this story, but I don't see how you get around needing a birthing woman. That's too clear cut. It is both compelling from a "how could she possibly do it alone?" standpoint and from the standpoint of "how could Rhaegar leave her with no help?"

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