The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose Contd.

[finger]

If Lyanna was giving birth during the fight at the ToJ the 3 KG couldn't know the gender of the child to be born so all the protecting the heir explanations for their presence go down the drain.

Food for thought: Maybe Lyanna asked to let the servants at the ToJ live but Ned killed them anyway because someone always tells?

The most accurate information about Jon's birthing place is Edric Dayne's account. According to this, a woman named Wylla was a wetnurse of both Jon and Edric. The latter's in Starfall, but with a few (4-5) years differrence.

In the time scene that is depicted, common people, as Wylla was, didn't normally travel. Unless they married with some foreigner, they died where they'd been born. She had her first pregnancy before Jon was born, I don't know if this can be deemed enough to locate Jon at Starfall, but it's a good clue.

[finger]

I'm trying hard to remember the reason why, but I have a recollection of arguing with the R+L=J crowd quite early on that the tower made an unlikely hideout since it wasn't remote and hidden at all but located in the Prince's Pass with Uncle Tom Cobley and all going past on a daily basis.

:agree:

A watchtower is an as unsuitable place to hide as a windmill, for similar reasons. They're built on ridges. Besides, a pass is not the place to hide; people pass through.

Instead, it's a good place for an ambush. If it wtached the Prince's Pass, it was a place to wait for those who wish to cross it.

[PrettyPig]

There was no war yet. In fact, this episode triggered the events that led to the RR.

Very true. However, as mentioned earlier it is hard to imagine the Crown Prince and some clearly not-Dornish gal hoofing south without someone retroactively musing, "Hey, yeah, Rhaegar and a hot-headed teenager calling him "Stupid" every so often passed through here about a month ago...." once Rickard and Brandon were dead and rebellion underway. Whether during or prior to active war, they still got to Dorne unseen. How?

Quite. I'm sorry to say I think Rhaegar was fundamentally wrong about some important matters, and because he was, quite a few fans are as well.

Well, in the scenario Black Crown described, where Rhaegar launches a coup against his father using Dornish forces? And Aerys, aware of this, has a Dornish princess and her children? I wonder.

I think if he saw hope as lost, he might cut all their throats in the same spirit that he, during the Sack, was prepared to torch the entire city. Surely Rhaegar could see that event coming.

If I had to guess, I'd say Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident, build political power as a result while somehow avoiding Aerys' paranoia on the subject, and then take such steps as he deemed best after securing his family's safety. But if so, that plan really didn't work out for him.

I'm divided on this one, really.

On the one hand, I want to give Rhaegar credit for political savviness and think that he's plotting a coup utilizing Dornish support, making Elia and Rhaenys important in the plot and elevating them above the "only women" mentality. After the release of the WB I even speculated that he was working something with Mama Martell to not only depose Aerys but adopt Dornish rules of succession to boot, putting Rhaenys in clear line for rule and firmly cementing Martell hold on the IT. This garners full support of Dorne for the coup and enables further unification of Westeros.

On the other, if this were the case it makes him a complete idiot and a total asshole for leaving his wife and kid(s)* in KL at the mercy of Aerys and under protection of the newest, youngest, and least loyal member of the KG, so I revert to the typical Westerosi mindset towards women and give him the benefit of the doubt by having him think, "Eh, they're female, who's going to bother them? What are they worth?"

*depending on what you believe really happened to baby Aegon, that is.

[PrettyPig]

The most accurate information about Jon's birthing place is Edric Dayne's account. According to this, a woman named Wylla was a wetnurse of both Jon and Edric. The latter's in Starfall, but with a few (4-5) years differrence.

In the time scene that is depicted, common people, as Wylla was, didn't normally travel. Unless they married with some foreigner, they died where they'd been born. She had her first pregnancy before Jon was born, I don't know if this can be deemed enough to locate Jon at Starfall, but it's a good clue.

Don't forget Allyria Dayne, who I suspect may be the transition baby who kept the taps flowing between Jon and Edric.

[finger]

Aerys had no idea where Rhaegar was for months and months. We know this from FFC:

The only alternative is to imagine Aerys for some reason deliberately chose Connington to be Hand over his own son... while pretending to be unaware of Rhaegar's location. This seems to me to be quite a leap.

Rhaegar's location also could not have been public knowledge for the same reason. If it were, this info would certainly have found its way to the king.

So how did Rhaegar, probably the single most recognizable person in the continent, manage to get Lyanna Stark many hundreds of miles south to the ToJ without Aerys learning where he was? Especially at that time, when his disappearance with Lyanna was the biggest news story of the day and any rumor would spread instantly?

Not sure.

IIRC, that quote comes from Barristan Selmy. I have the idea that BS also stands for Bold and Stupid. He seemed to never notice anything. I take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

Aerys was a paranoid. He mistrusted all but everybody, particulary Rhaegar, but also Tywin, the Dornish, and most of Planetos. Paranoids conceal facts because of mistrust, but I'm pretty Varys knew where to find Rhaegar and how to communicate with him. He wouldn't tell BS, no big deal. His strenght came from knowing what most people ignored.

It's known that Rhaegar was at the verge of rebelling against Aerys. And then, Aerys had Lyanna's father and brother killed. I guess that made R+L rather pissed off.

Neither Aerys would be willing to call Rhaegar, nor Rhaegar would be willing to go. When Aerys called Rhaegar, he was rather desperate, and I think he would Rhaegar would ask for something in exchange.

[JNR]

IIRC, that quote comes from Barristan Selmy. I have the idea that BS also stands for Bold and Stupid. He seemed to never notice anything. I take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

Aerys was a paranoid.

The quote comes from Jaime... and if there was anybody Aerys apparently did trust not to stab him in the back, it was Jaime.

I have to say, these Targs don't seem to do the best job of assessing the world, figuring out threats, and making plans that work.

Of course you're right that Jaime could be an unreliable narrator. But that still leaves as unexplained why Aerys would have appointed somebody like Connington as his Hand, while simultaneously misleading Jaime and the rest of Westeros into believing he (Aerys) didn't know where Rhaegar was.

[alienarea]

Snip

I have to say, these Targs don't seem to do the best job of assessing the world, figuring out threats, and making plans that work.

Snip

QFT. In fact they are as dumb as the Starks. It's a miracle those houses didn't hook up before.

If Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen he'll probably fall down the wall and break his neck out of poor judgement. :dunno:

[Black Crow]

...or get a knife in his back

[PrettyPig]

...or get a knife in his back

Lol.......RLJers will rejoice, you just cracked the code.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Since there is so much dissent over the RR timeline, it's almost impossbile to say for sure. If it "officially" began when Jon Arryn raised his banners and "officially" ended with the siege at SE a year-ish later, the Trident/Sack could have occurred some 10-11 months in and it would work. But, with nothing concrete re: timing for any of the events (we know approximate chronology but not dates), this theory could be way off and not work at all. Hard to tell.

I'm roughly guesstimating that the Battle of the Bells, the last major conflict before the Trident, was around halfway into RR if not more. If that is the case, Ned's detour on Sweetsister with the FD could have been 1-2 months in which could still have Jon born around the Sack. However, not having a benchmark for anything (even Robb's name day) makes it tough to nail down.

My reasoning has typically been based on the fact that Jon and Robb are said to have been approximately the same age... and that this would suggest that Lyanna became pregnant around the same time Ned married Catelyn. So, after Ned made it to Winterfell, assembled all his bannermen, and made it south to Riverrun for a wedding. Of course, by the time both kids are 14, a difference of several months in age would hardly warrant mention - so perhaps there is still wiggle room there

Not sure.

IIRC, that quote comes from Barristan Selmy. I have the idea that BS also stands for Bold and Stupid. He seemed to never notice anything. I take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

Aerys was a paranoid. He mistrusted all but everybody, particulary Rhaegar, but also Tywin, the Dornish, and most of Planetos. Paranoids conceal facts because of mistrust, but I'm pretty Varys knew where to find Rhaegar and how to communicate with him. He wouldn't tell BS, no big deal. His strenght came from knowing what most people ignored.

It's known that Rhaegar was at the verge of rebelling against Aerys. And then, Aerys had Lyanna's father and brother killed. I guess that made R+L rather pissed off.

Neither Aerys would be willing to call Rhaegar, nor Rhaegar would be willing to go. When Aerys called Rhaegar, he was rather desperate, and I think he would Rhaegar would ask for something in exchange.

I consider B. Selmy to be a particularly obvious unreliable narrator... in his particular way. As I've observed before, the two "legacy" members of the KG (Sers Barristan and Jaime) each appear especially suspect as relators of history. Neither was in position to know anything significant about Rhaegar's activity, motives, or plans, and each for a different (and contrasting) reason. One was an experienced KG member, with an established history and reputation for unbending honor; the other was brand new to the cohort, an obvious tool of the king, with no track record for trustworthiness when it came to secrets.

The quote comes from Jaime... and if there was anybody Aerys apparently did trust not to stab him in the back, it was Jaime.

I have to say, these Targs don't seem to do the best job of assessing the world, figuring out threats, and making plans that work.

Of course you're right that Jaime could be an unreliable narrator. But that still leaves as unexplained why Aerys would have appointed somebody like Connington as his Hand, while simultaneously misleading Jaime and the rest of Westeros into believing he (Aerys) didn't know where Rhaegar was.

As I say... I consider Jaime to be an obviously unreliable narrator in certain respects. He knows things that others do not (e.g., what happened in that throne room immediately before Ned rode in), but generally speaking he was not privy to anyone's secrets or hidden motives, unless you count Aerys... and in that case, even what he did know can be safely assumed to have been known by more sophisticated players (e.g., Varys, and perhaps Pycelle, at a minimum).

That said - I do find it rather amazing that Aerys (1) gave Jaime a sword, (2) insisted on remaining (alone) in the same room with the kid, then (3) thought ordering him to kill his own father was a safe bet. 'Course, I'm sure at that point Aerys felt he was running short of options. Still, I wouldn't call it trust... Desperation, maybe. Or madness.

[JNR]

As I say... I consider Jaime to be an obviously unreliable narrator in certain respects. He knows things that others do not (e.g., what happened in that throne room immediately before Ned rode in), but generally speaking he was not privy to anyone's secrets or hidden motives, unless you count Aerys... and in that case, even what he did know can be safely assumed to have been known by more sophisticated players (e.g., Varys, and perhaps Pycelle, at a minimum).

In general, sure. On this particular point I don't know why we'd consider him unreliable.

All these years later he still seems to think Rhaegar couldn't be found, so nothing he's heard since then has led him to change his mind. If Rhaegar's location was in fact public knowledge, Jaime somehow excluded, then I don't see how that could be the case.

Or, if one supposes most people didn't know where Rhaegar was, but Aerys did, and if it was at the TOJ... then it is totally perplexing to me that Aerys never summoned his three sworn and loyal KG back to defend him long before the Sack.

I mean, granted nobody called him the Sane King, but still.

I consider B. Selmy to be a particularly obvious unreliable narrator... in his particular way. As I've observed before, the two "legacy" members of the KG (Sers Barristan and Jaime) each appear especially suspect as relators of history. Neither was in position to know anything significant about Rhaegar's activity, motives, or plans, and each for a different (and contrasting) reason.

On the subject of Rhaegar's love for his Lady Lyanna, absolutely. I can't see any reason to suppose that Ser Barristan ever so much as saw Rhaegar and Lyanna together as a couple... not once in his life. I guess he might somehow have been Rhaegar's BFF on that particular subject, but I doubt it given his own belief that Rhaegar never trusted him as Rhaegar had trusted Dayne.

I've also read your thoughts in another thread concerning the idea Selmy might have thrown the Harrenhal tourney at Rhaegar's command, and I thought it was pretty well argued.

[PrettyPig]

My reasoning has typically been based on the fact that Jon and Robb are said to have been approximately the same age... and that this would suggest that Lyanna became pregnant around the same time Ned married Catelyn. So, after Ned made it to Winterfell, assembled all his bannermen, and made it south to Riverrun for a wedding. Of course, by the time both kids are 14, a difference of several months in age would hardly warrant mention - so perhaps there is still wiggle room there

The "Who is Older?" debate comes up frequently in the RLJ argument. I have gone round and round 'elsewhere' with this math using Dany's birth as the benchmark and keeping Jon's presumed birth around time of the Sack, and basically it comes down to this: for Robb to be of an age or even slightly older than Jon (as is assumed he is), he would absolutely have to be conceived within the first month or two of the rebellion/Jon Arryn raising his banners. There's just no way around it given a war that lasted close to a year.

[warning: boring pedantic chronology recitation ahead]

The issue here is that the the Battle of the Bells occurred prior to the Stark/Tully and Arryn/Tully marriages - BotB is where Jon Arryn's heir Denys is killed by Jon Connington, necessitating Jon's hasty marriage to Lysa. Jon Connington is made Hand prior to BotB due to Owen Merryweather's ineffectiveness over Robert and Ned who have already called their banners, and of course is exiled after BotB due to defeat. Chelsted is made Hand in his place. Chelsted is the Hand who caught on to Aerys' wildfire plot, which came to a boil only after all the previous defeats, and which only he and Jaime knew about because all other KG had already left with Rhaegar for the Trident. Chelsted is burned and pyromancer Rossart replaces him, only to be slain by Jaime during the Sack a fortnight later.

Unless you can accept that all major battles of the rebellion save the Trident occurred in the first few months of the rebellion, and that there was a lull lasting several months between the BotB and Trident/Sack, I conclude from all the above that the BotB happened midway or later through RR, and therefore Ned and Cat did not marry/conceive Robb until the latter part of RR. Meaning, of course, that Robb would be born a few months after the Sack.

In addition, RR is said to last close to a year. Cat recounts that Ned is away from her for the first year of their marriage. So again, you have the choice of either condensing all milestone events of RR into the first few months, or opting to have Ned marry ~6 months into it and returning to Cat ~a year later, probably a few months prior to the assault on Dragonstone. (GRRM has said in SSM that Ned's return from Dorne would be a long journey of many months, so this makes sense to me.)

If Jon is a few months older than Robb but was the smaller and less robust baby of the two, it is very possible that Ned could claim at Winterfell that Jon is a bastard fathered on campaign after he married Cat and have this tale be believeable.

Pedantry aside though, every bit of this is assumption and none of it can be confirmed without a firm benchmark for events. However, the issue boils down to the fact that not all of these things can be true simultaneously without major problems:

1) Dany is born 9 moons after the Sack;

2) Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany

3) Robb is slightly older than Jon.

Having these all work together with the chronology that is known thus far is putting too many square pegs into round holes.

I consider B. Selmy to be a particularly obvious unreliable narrator... in his particular way. As I've observed before, the two "legacy" members of the KG (Sers Barristan and Jaime) each appear especially suspect as relators of history. Neither was in position to know anything significant about Rhaegar's activity, motives, or plans, and each for a different (and contrasting) reason. One was an experienced KG member, with an established history and reputation for unbending honor; the other was brand new to the cohort, an obvious tool of the king, with no track record for trustworthiness when it came to secrets.

Agree. Barry's Dance POV shows that he isn't at his A game when he's forced to think or strategize, especially when it requires him to contradict his honor code. I do think though that the plan that he devises with the Shavepate to arrest Hizdahr may be a nice glimpse into what may have happened with our three favorite KG, Sers Dayne/Whent/Hightower. That scenario was a real eye-opener upon reread.

[hallapino]

I've posted this elsewhere but it conceivable that Rhaegar had posted the KG at the Tower to keep Lyanna "on ice" and never had time to do the raping her. Her secret is that she fell in love with Arthur Dayne in the meantime and had Jon Snow. Arthur Dayne smiled a sad smile at the thought of being held to his oath while having to fight Lyanna's brother to the death. The promise Eddard Stark made was to keep his parentage a secret and to return Dawn to Starfall until Jon is old enough to become the Sword of the Morning. Dawn may have a big role to play as winter and Night approaches and this storyline works better than the Targaryen connection. Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star (obsidian) and may hold the key to the defeat of the others.

This theory could also be why Eddard kept Arthur in high regard. If Arthur role was simply to keep Lyanna in the tower to be constantly raped he may have thought otherwise.

"Dawn shall remain at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning Shall arise". GRRM

It's almost time.

[JNR]

Unless you can accept that all major battles of the rebellion save the Trident occurred in the first few months of the rebellion, and that there was a lull lasting several months between the BotB and Trident/Sack

Yeah, this does seem to be what the books imply. Is there some reason to think it's not possible?

[PrettyPig]

Yeah, this does seem to be what the books imply. Is there some reason to think it's not possible?

Hmmm. Well, I am but a not-so-young girl who knows little of the ways of war, but that just seems like a lot of events and logistical coordination efforts to cram into a space of a few months. However, anything is possible in GRRM-time so the timeline could be frontloaded exactly like that.

And of course we're back to speculation on ways to get Lyanna/Rhaegar unnoticed into Dorne. :) As I said earlier, the FD theory is just a theory....one of many.

[JNR]

It's a strange situation. I recall Robert was wounded prior to the BofB, but I also recall he slew Myles Mooton. Did he take more wounds? -- and did that slow the rebellion for which he was the spearpoint? Not sure. A six month delay or so before the Trident seems to be indicated and that seems awfully long. So there are some oddities here.

And of course we're back to speculation on ways to get Lyanna/Rhaegar unnoticed into Dorne. :)

One can also set aside Lyanna or Dorne for a minute and just ask: Where could Rhaegar go, that his location would not be known? Was he just sitting in a private location somewhere? If so, was it close to his last known location? What was that location? If it wasn't close how did he get from A to B without being noticed? Was the crown prince camping incognito in the woods, really?

Can we trust the World book's account that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal? Or is the maester who said that slyly acknowledging that it's only propaganda when he calls it a "well-known tale?" Why is it that never in the series proper do we hear anybody refer to this tale?

So many questions.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It's a strange situation. I recall Robert was wounded prior to the BofB, but I also recall he slew Myles Mooton. Did he take more wounds? -- and did that slow the rebellion for which he was the spearpoint? Not sure. A six month delay or so before the Trident seems to be indicated and that seems awfully long. So there are some oddities here.

More than just those. I've long wondered what all the strategic reasons for Robert's military movements might have been. They can certainly be justified in hindsight, but the case might have been more difficult to make in real time. Could Robert have known, for instance, that Tywin would stay out of the conflict when he headed north and west from Ashford toward Stoney Sept? Was he already headed that way, and confident of Riverrun's support? Even though Ned had yet to make it south, and Hoster Tully apparently offered to support Jon Arryn only on condition of marriage to his soiled daughter? Perhaps there was a plan in place, or some kind of communication (by raven?) in the meantime, but we haven't read anything to confirm that and it's a rather long way from home for Robert to go.

Meanwhile, it seems Ned Stark gained quite a reputation as a battle commander, considering he only participated in two significant battles that we know of. Robert gives him full credit for victory in the Battle of the Bells, but it's worth noting that Hoster Tully was also there (and on his own land). Meanwhile, Ned can only have been, maybe, 3rd in command at the Trident once Arryn arrived with his knights of the Vale. And though he relieves the garrison at Storm's End, it sounds like Mace Tyrell and crew hardly put up any fuss at all.

Not to say Ned is undeserving of his reputation... just that we don't have very much information on how it was earned.

[PrettyPig]

It's a strange situation. I recall Robert was wounded prior to the BofB, but I also recall he slew Myles Mooton. Did he take more wounds? -- and did that slow the rebellion for which he was the spearpoint? Not sure. A six month delay or so before the Trident seems to be indicated and that seems awfully long. So there are some oddities here.

One can also set aside Lyanna or Dorne for a minute and just ask: Where could Rhaegar go, that his location would not be known? Was he just sitting in a private location somewhere? If so, was it close to his last known location? What was that location? If it wasn't close how did he get from A to B without being noticed? Was the crown prince camping incognito in the woods, really?

Can we trust the World book's account that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal? Or is the maester who said that slyly acknowledging that it's only propaganda when he calls it a "well-known tale?" Why is it that never in the series proper do we hear anybody refer to this tale?

So many questions.

Bob did take a wound, but IIRC he spent some time recovering/drinking/whoring in the north but it wasn't THAT long. Besides, even though the White Bull had to go on walkabout to find Rhaegar on Aerys' command after the loss at Stoney Sept, it seems a stretch to think that 1) Hightower could perform this feat at light speed to have him back in KL still in the early months of the rebellion, or 2) alternately rebel forces would loll around for half a year waiting for Rhaegar to resurface and make his big appearance with the loyalist army. Robert may have been delayed somewhat with a wound, but for a period of months? Yeah, seems fishy.

Re: Rhaegar going incognito, the distinct Targ looks would hamper that for sure, but then I'm reminded of that Ned chapter in which he holds court while Robert is hunting boar. Someone bringing a grievance addresses Ned as "Your Grace" thinking him to be Robert, and after he corrects him Ned wonders how it could be that a person could live a half day's ride from there and not know the face of their king. If Rhaegar donned some roughspun and found a batch of snail dye, maybe he could get away with it.

[wolfmaid7]

The most accurate information about Jon's birthing place is Edric Dayne's account. According to this, a woman named Wylla was a wetnurse of both Jon and Edric. The latter's in Starfall, but with a few (4-5) years differrence.

In the time scene that is depicted, common people, as Wylla was, didn't normally travel. Unless they married with some foreigner, they died where they'd been born. She had her first pregnancy before Jon was born, I don't know if this can be deemed enough to locate Jon at Starfall, but it's a good clue.

Its a connection true...

Very true. However, as mentioned earlier it is hard to imagine the Crown Prince and some clearly not-Dornish gal hoofing south without someone retroactively musing, "Hey, yeah, Rhaegar and a hot-headed teenager calling him "Stupid" every so often passed through here about a month ago...." once Rickard and Brandon were dead and rebellion underway. Whether during or prior to active war, they still got to Dorne unseen. How?

I'm divided on this one, really.

On the one hand, I want to give Rhaegar credit for political savviness and think that he's plotting a coup utilizing Dornish support, making Elia and Rhaenys important in the plot and elevating them above the "only women" mentality. After the release of the WB I even speculated that he was working something with Mama Martell to not only depose Aerys but adopt Dornish rules of succession to boot, putting Rhaenys in clear line for rule and firmly cementing Martell hold on the IT. This garners full support of Dorne for the coup and enables further unification of Westeros.

On the other, if this were the case it makes him a complete idiot and a total asshole for leaving his wife and kid(s)* in KL at the mercy of Aerys and under protection of the newest, youngest, and least loyal member of the KG, so I revert to the typical Westerosi mindset towards women and give him the benefit of the doubt by having him think, "Eh, they're female, who's going to bother them? What are they worth?"

*depending on what you believe really happened to baby Aegon, that is.

This .Its just the decisions made and how Rhaegar handled shit...Aerys madness was evident even to him i don't understand why he took them back to KL? This part i didn't get.According to the WB Rhaegar wasn't at KL,nor was he at Dragonstone with his young son Ageon,wife and Daughter. My question is? How and who took them back to KL? Did Aerys kidnap his familiy?

QFT. In fact they are as dumb as the Starks. It's a miracle those houses didn't hook up before.

If Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen he'll probably fall down the wall and break his neck out of poor judgement. :dunno:

Is there any wonder that "he knows nothing"

I've posted this elsewhere but it conceivable that Rhaegar had posted the KG at the Tower to keep Lyanna "on ice" and never had time to do the raping her. Her secret is that she fell in love with Arthur Dayne in the meantime and had Jon Snow. Arthur Dayne smiled a sad smile at the thought of being held to his oath while having to fight Lyanna's brother to the death. The promise Eddard Stark made was to keep his parentage a secret and to return Dawn to Starfall until Jon is old enough to become the Sword of the Morning. Dawn may have a big role to play as winter and Night approaches and this storyline works better than the Targaryen connection. Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star (obsidian) and may hold the key to the defeat of the others.

This theory could also be why Eddard kept Arthur in high regard. If Arthur role was simply to keep Lyanna in the tower to be constantly raped he may have thought otherwise.

"Dawn shall remain at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning Shall arise". GRRM

It's almost time.

I had mentioned to Snow Fyre chorus that i had a sense about Dayne.If all we've theorized thus far about the timing of Jon is true and i know i can't say Rhaegar was at the TOJ for a whole year then one of the KG did the deed and Dayne seems most likely and i'm drawing loose connections here nothing has hit me yet.But So far he was the one that stood out to me more.

Then the next questions ofcourse is where the hell was Rhaegar if he wasn't at Dragonstone,Kingslanding or at the TOJ all the time and i really don't see with all the crap happening that he would be :dunno:

[PrettyPig]

Meanwhile, it seems Ned Stark gained quite a reputation as a battle commander, considering he only participated in two significant battles that we know of. Robert gives him full credit for victory in the Battle of the Bells, but it's worth noting that Hoster Tully was also there (and on his own land). Meanwhile, Ned can only have been, maybe, 3rd in command at the Trident once Arryn arrived with his knights of the Vale. And though he relieves the garrison at Storm's End, it sounds like Mace Tyrell and crew hardly put up any fuss at all.

Not to say Ned is undeserving of his reputation... just that we don't have very much information on how it was earned.

Ohhhhh, huge sticking point for me! I have yet to find a detailed account of Ned doing any actual fighting against loyalist forces. People in-universe and on these forums swear it happened, yet in Ned's POV and other recounts of RR, it sounds like Ned was there but was letting others do the front-lines dirty work, or somehow the tides just happened to turn his way before he was forced to shed loyalist blood.

Very interesting. I wonder just how much of a "rebel" devoted to the cause Ned Stark really was.