Mossovy, CotF?

[RumHam]

Are the people who are saying that the cotf created the Iron Islands with the hammer of the waters saying that the Iron Isles were raised out of the water? Or are you saying that it use to be 1 big island that was split kind of like the stepstones. If so I could get on board with that.

I believe it's accepted history in universe that Pyke used to be a much bigger island and castle, and only a few towers still stand linked by rope bridges.

I personally don't see the need for the Hammer of the Waters to be the cause of every seismic event in the history of the planet. But who knows.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I like this theory except I highly doubt that the deep ones bred with Humans, not all races of Men can breed with each other (Ibbenese and female Sothoryosi) so the idea that Humans bred with other races just seems ludicrous to me. I believe the thousand Islanders are just normal Humans who have gained green skin and baldness either due to being in isolation (similar to the Valyrians) or due to inbreeding following limited populations on the Islands following the hammer.

with all these lovecraft references, halflings of Deep Ones and humans are real IMO.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

For all the stuff we have seen so far, shapechangers are off the table? lol

we have dragons, the Others, prophecies that are coming true, sorcery, wargs

its not that they are off the table.

but knowing sometimes shapechanger is just another name for skinchangers, why not assume, this is just another example?

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

its not that they are off the table.

but knowing sometimes shapechanger is just another name for skinchangers, why not assume, this is just another example?

Got your point now, I thought you meant like: no way they exist lol

[barristan-b]

I wanted to add to the original topic at hand about CotF and Mossovy.

Check out a big scale Planetos map: http://www.fonstola.ru/pic/201309/2560x1440/fonstola.ru-117781.jpg

Consider this: If these shapechangers of Mossovy share ancestors (or) are CoT, both would currently be lying beyond a wall, in a haunted forest in the north, adjacent to the most mysterious lands in the realm: the Lands of Always Winter and the Grey Waste.

Maybe at the end of the day they really are there to be another sort of "wall" against the other forces beyond. When the time comes, they help the realm.

[Reginald blackfield]

I wanted to add to the original topic at hand about CotF and Mossovy.

Check out a big scale Planetos map: http://www.fonstola.ru/pic/201309/2560x1440/fonstola.ru-117781.jpg

Consider this: If these shapechangers of Mossovy share ancestors (or) are CoT, both would currently be lying beyond a wall, in a haunted forest in the north, adjacent to the most mysterious lands in the realm: the Lands of Always Winter and the Grey Waste.

Maybe at the end of the day they really are there to be another sort of "wall" against the other forces beyond. When the time comes, they help the realm.

I am almost convinced that somewhere to the northeast of Mossovy there is a 'Bering Land Bridge', connecting eastern Essos with Far northwestern Westeros.

[Falcon2908]

I am almost convinced that somewhere to the northeast of Mossovy there is a 'Bering Land Bridge', connecting eastern Essos with Far northwestern Westeros.

I'm sorry but George has confirmed that Essos and Westeros aren't physically connected to each other

[Reginald blackfield]

I'm sorry but George has confirmed that Essos and Westeros aren't physically connected to each other

Proof?

[Falcon2908]

Proof?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P60

Read Q 5

[barristan-b]

Yeah I think it may have more to do with just the continents and their histories mirroring eachother. It also shows that magic is seasonal as GRRM has given hints to as well.

I've actually wondered if we know only about 1/3rd to a half of the planet and the other side is either full of ice ridden tundra (Islands/Sea further east than the Grey Waste) or forested (Sothoros). The conditions aren't livable for human like creatures because of the old one's that live in it and when the magic returns to the seasons, the humanoid like ones (Others) need to migrate beyond the Waste and south of the Wall to stay alive.

[LmL]

a) true... i guess i was thinking more in terms of making them loose a foothold from where they could reave the coasts of Mossovy.. The Deep ones were known to live in many islands around the world.

b) Why wouldn´t they be magical?

The Lengii have golden eyes and are said to be the Tallest men of the world. The subterranean ruins, are huge and described as labyrinth..

So yes, i was thinking of the Lengii being descendants.. half breed of Mazemakeers and humans.. while the Old Ones, the remaining Mazemakers, that live in those gigantic subterranean mazes under Leng

I was wondering if I was the only one who caught that. The weirwoods have a direct analog in the Warlock trees, so the COTF should have an analog. The Lengii are super tall, an opposite of the COTF, but those golden eyes that see in the dark! That's a giveaway. And, they live underground (or at least the deep ones do, and I'm guessing the Lengii bred with them). Also, the Lengii Empress occasionally listens to the deep ones who tells her to kill all the foreigners on the island - it's happened four times, supposedly. That sounds like blood sacrifice.

The COTF represent the element earth on team Dark, the balancing element (they use obsidian AND Weirwood to do battle), with Ice and Water being the other two elements of team dark. There's tons of proof that the drowned God is on team dark, most notably Moqorro telling Victarion that his god is a demon in thrall to the Great Other, but there's lots more. The elements of Fire and Storm, or Air, play on team light. Team is actually the wrong word, more like 'group.' But anyway, team light has an earth element too, a balancing force for their side like the COTF, and I'm thinking it's the Lengii or the deep ones that they bred with.

[LmL]

I wanted to add to the original topic at hand about CotF and Mossovy.

Check out a big scale Planetos map: http://www.fonstola.ru/pic/201309/2560x1440/fonstola.ru-117781.jpg

Consider this: If these shapechangers of Mossovy share ancestors (or) are CoT, both would currently be lying beyond a wall, in a haunted forest in the north, adjacent to the most mysterious lands in the realm: the Lands of Always Winter and the Grey Waste.

Maybe at the end of the day they really are there to be another sort of "wall" against the other forces beyond. When the time comes, they help the realm.

Agree, agree, agree. The story of the Ifequevron Woods Walkers is to clue us in that the COTF aren't convinced to Westeros, or weren't in ancient days. Tales of giants are everywhere, too, and it seems like we may even have one proto-race for each element. Did anyone spell this out exactly? We've got:

Fire: Lizard people

Air (storm): winged men if the Far East

Earth, team dark: old ones

Ice: Others

Water (sea): merlings or squishers

Earth, team dark: COTF

We've also got the giants and stone giants to account for. Any ideas on that? Perhaps the earth element on each side has COTF and giants, with living giants for team dark and stone ones for team light?

[Falcon2908]

Agree, agree, agree. The story of the Ifequevron Woods Walkers is to clue us in that the COTF aren't convinced to Westeros, or weren't in ancient days. Tales of giants are everywhere, too, and it seems like we may even have one proto-race for each element. Did anyone spell this out exactly? We've got:

Fire: Lizard people

Air (storm): winged men if the Far East

Earth, team dark: old ones

Ice: Others

Water (sea): merlings or squishers

Earth, team dark: COTF

We've also got the giants and stone giants to account for. Any ideas on that? Perhaps the earth element on each side has COTF and giants, with living giants for team dark and stone ones for team light?

To me the winged men just seem to be an advanced civilisation of human beings who use Gliders to move from place to place. (city of winged men is mountainous afterall).

No one else has seen gliders before, which is why they're called the winged men.

[LmL]

I don't think the Hammer of Waters would be much of a help against the Deep Ones. It wouldn't drown them since they live in the seas, and in the end you just get more ocean (which is where the Deep Ones dwell to begin with).

Also, I don't think the Old Ones are Mazemakers. Primarily because I don't think the Mazemakers were a magical race at all; I think they were just an exceptionally tall race of men like the Lengii. Though the fact that Mazemakers and Lengii are both exceptionally tall and have subterranean ruins in interesting. Maybe the Lengii are descendants of Mazemakers in Leng, and there were once Old Ones in Lorath that the Mazemakers worshiped that were killed/driven off by the Deep Ones.

It's specifically said that the Old Ones are beneath Lengii. Definitely a parallel to the maze makers, and the one other tall, tall race of humans - the Sarnori, who lived right next door to the Ifequevron forest. The Sarnori have the same exact coloring as the Lengii - teak skin, black hair - but the Sarnori have black eyes, and the Lengii golden. The Sarnori are one of the oldest cultures around, and the Silver Sea kingdom of the Fisher Queens that predated them are suggested as a cultural dispersion place of origin - the first men may come from there, we are told. Not sure if the Sarnori emigrated to Lengi, or the other way around, but it seems possible.

I'll just mention that the Naathi have golden eyes and dark skin as well. They reverse songs and the god of harmony. Sounds very COTF like to me, as I think they represent the earth element, and in George's equation, earth is the balancing force between the oppositional forces of ice and fire, storm and sea. Storm is equivalent to air, in this hypothesis.

[LmL]

To me the winged men just seem to be an advanced civilisation of human beings who use Gliders to move from place to place. (city of winged men is mountainous afterall).

No one else has seen gliders before, which is why they're called the winged men.

Some people see purely natural explanations behind the myths of Planetos - I tend to think its a mix. It seems very clear that there are several hybrid races lying around - so why should the winged men be any different? This is fantasy after all. We have magic and human-animals hybrids, and human-other races hybrids. These aren't just legends.

There's an error in my little table that I made - I think earth is a part of neither "team" dark or "team" light. They are in the middle, the balancing agent between all the other oppositional forces. In theory, or course.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I was wondering if I was the only one who caught that. The weirwoods have a direct analog in the Warlock trees, so the COTF should have an analog. The Lengii are super tall, an opposite of the COTF, but those golden eyes that see in the dark! That's a giveaway. And, they live underground (or at least the deep ones do, and I'm guessing the Lengii bred with them). Also, the Lengii Empress occasionally listens to the deep ones who tells her to kill all the foreigners on the island - it's happened four times, supposedly. That sounds like blood sacrifice.

*Old Ones. There are Old Ones beneath Leng, not Deep Ones.

But I agree that it sounds like a blood sacrifice, and I think they were mind controlled.

I considered a link between Lengii and Mazemakers but I dismissed it because the distance between two islands.

I don't think Sarnori are linked with neither Lengii (tho they traded with Leng) or Mazemakers, Sarnori looks comes from the people of grasslands, they are a mix of Zoqora, Gipps and Cymmeri and Fisher Queens.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

*Old Ones. There are Old Ones beneath Leng, not Deep Ones.

But I agree that it sounds like a blood sacrifice, and I think they were mind controlled.

I considered a link between Lengii and Mazemakers but I dismissed it because the distance between two islands.

I don't think Sarnori are linked with neither Lengii (tho they traded with Leng) or Mazemakers, Sarnori looks comes from the people of grasslands, they are a mix of Zoqora, Gipps and Cymmeri and Fisher Queens.

we don´t know what kind of technology they had.. they might have been seafaring people.

they were also credited with building the mazes of the Hightower (Oldtown is a trading port since before recorded history).. My take its that they (the mazemakers) helped the dragonlords of Ancient asshai build it. they fought together against the Deep Ones in the battle that gives the battle Isle its name

[TheSovereignGrave]

we don´t know what kind of technology they had.. they might have been seafaring people.

they were also credited with building the mazes of the Hightower (Oldtown is a trading port since before recorded history).. My take its that they (the mazemakers) helped the dragonlords of Ancient asshai build it. they fought together against the Deep Ones in the battle that gives the battle Isle its name

The connection between Hightower's base and the Mazemakers is simply a theory, and a rather tenuous one at best. The only similarities is that the interior of the base can be considered rather labyrinthine. Not everything maze-like is the result of the mazemakers' building it.

[LmL]

The connection between Hightower's base and the Mazemakers is simply a theory, and a rather tenuous one at best. The only similarities is that the interior of the base can be considered rather labyrinthine. Not everything maze-like is the result of the mazemakers' building it.

Yeah I don't see these two as connected. Fused stone is a totally unique technique that only one people can do, that we have been told - Valyrians, or proto-Valyrians. It's strongly implied that dragon fire is necessary to make fused stone. Ancient Lorath is all quarried stone, and we aren't given any indication that it is balck - the picture shows tan looking stone, FWIW.

To me the fused stone with utilitarian design is proto-Valyrian - the five forts, Oldtown fort. Those do not match any characteristics of the greasy black stone locations, which do not have fused stone and are associated with very dark necromancy and the like. I think this may be the work of the Golden Empire of the Dawn, my best guess for proto-Valyrians.

Thanks for the catch on the Old Ones / Deep Ones error, Mrs Grumpy. As for the Sarnori, and the Fisher Queens before them, they had to "come from somewhere" too. Of the three groups that Huzor Amai took a wife from was very tall, which is where the Sarnori get their height. We aren't given the full description of what those three peoples all looked like, but rather only pieces of info. But given that the Ifequevron forests are *right there,* it seems like a possible explanation for the Lengii having golden eyes and otherwise matching exactly the description of the Sarnori. If the Old Ones aren't some variant of the CotF, then the Lengii must get their golden eyes from somewhere. Enter the proto-Sarnori. Just a possibility, not saying its true. Interesting though, that the Sarnori remember a guy named Huzor Amai that is associated with smithing and conquering both. Kind of hints at a more eastern origin for them. All the -ai suffix names are from the Far East - Asshai, Gorgai, Jogos Nhai, N'Ghai, Stygai, Yunkai, Azoh Ahai, a Yi Tish emperor named Chai Duq (who kept a dragon at his court) and the current emperor, I forget a name but it has an -ai too.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The connection between Hightower's base and the Mazemakers is simply a theory, and a rather tenuous one at best. The only similarities is that the interior of the base can be considered rather labyrinthine. Not everything maze-like is the result of the mazemakers' building it.

true, but neither Valyrians nor Ancient Asshai made things in that maze-like way. No other Black stone building (oily or just fused) is described like that..If Ancient Asshai made things with mazes, then at least the Five forts would have that aspect described.

Yet the Hightower has both aspects, fused black stone, and maze protections as Lorath buildings.

Simplest explanation would be that both peoples contributed to that construction, since it has both elements..