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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.124

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We'd like to see comparisons between Lyanna Stark and Alys Karstark as one of the topics in the new R+L=J thread.


Happy new year!

Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?

Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?

Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.


How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?

He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.

There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?

We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons“ in the very first chapter?

In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon“ and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.

On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?

The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.

"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?

The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes“, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.

In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compliled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

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R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

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R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

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R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

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R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

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R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

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R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

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R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

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R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

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R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

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R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

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R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

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R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

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R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

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R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

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R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

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R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

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R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

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R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

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If your going to list Rhaenyra's children as evidence that Targs don't have to have silver hair, you should include that they are probably bastards by house Strong and that both parents probably didn't have the Targ features.



IMO you should just remove that reference all together because there is already plenty of evidence for it without getting into speculation.



Edit: While its possible they were Leanors children, the odds are astronomical that all 3 would have brown hair, while all 3 children with Daemon had silver.


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Shiny!!!



I'll be posting an Alys Karstark thing here in a moment as soon as it's finished being typed


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To get us started on the Alys/Lyanna discussion (sorry if this isn't as complete as it should be. Done rather hastily this morning)



Alys Karstark: A Brief Rundown



In A Game of Thrones, Alys Karstark, only daughter of Lord Rickard Karstark of Karhold, is betrothed to Daryn Hornwood. Alys has three brothers: Eddard, Torrhen, and Harry. In the battle of the Whispering Wood, Daryn Hornwood is killed and Alys, not yet a flowered maid, is free to become engaged to another lord.



In A Dance With Dragons, Melisandre sees “a grey girl on a dying horse” coming to the Wall in her flames. Jon and Mel believe this girl to be Arya Stark and Jon prepares to see his little sister once more. Mortals err, as Mel tells Jon later, when it turns out that the grey girl on the dying horse is not Arya but rather is Alys Karstark fleeing from her uncle Arnolf and his son Cregan. Arnolf, who has ambitions to rule Karhold in his own right since the execution of Lord Rickard Karstark at the hand of King Robb Stark, wants to force Alys and Cregan to marry.



Jon Snow describes Alys Karstark thusly:





She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment. A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven into a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather. She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.

[snip]


she does look a bit like Arya, Jon thought. Starved and skinny, but her hair’s the same color, and her eyes.




Alys begs for Jon’s help to keep her uncle and her cousin Cregan from taking her back to Karhold and forcing her into a marriage she does not want.



Jon’s solution to Alys’ problems is to marry her to Sigorn, the Magnar of Thenn and create a new noble house. The two are married in a ceremony of fire (at the Ice Wall) by Melisandre. Cregan Karstark has come to the Wall in search of his bride-to-be, but is thrown into an ice cell by Jon.



Some brief observations to keep in mind:



1) Alys is described as looking like a bit like Arya. We all know who Arya looks like.


2) Alys has three brothers, one of whom is named Eddard.


3) Alys flees from a man she does not wish to marry set by an ambitious “father” figure.


4) The Karstarks and the Starks are kin, as Lord Rickard Karstark reminds Robb before the beheading


5) The marriage ceremony (on which we can spend a lot of time) is one of fire, amidst ice.


6) Alys Karstark has a bit of the “wild wolf blood” in her, especially as she declares that Sigorn should be scared of her.


7) Jon calls Alys “Winter’s Lady”


8) Sigorn of Thenn and Alys will create a new household that is supposed to help foster peace.


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Ooo, Shiny, precious.



Let's not feed trolls. There are some that refuse to see the light and bring only darkness upon the land.


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We'd like to see comparisons between Lyanna Stark and Alys Karstark as one of the topics in the new R+L=J thread.

Happy new year!

Another thing (from the previous thread) that I'd like to ask again as I am still confused about is where we learn that wildlings also marry in front of a weirwood tree. Does anybody remember where that is?

If your going to list Rhaenyra's children as evidence that Targs don't have to have silver hair, you should include that they are probably bastards by house Strong and that both parents probably didn't have the Targ features.

[...]

Edit: While its possible they were Leanors children, the odds are astronomical that all 3 would have brown hair, while all 3 children with Daemon had silver.

I left that out on purpose... do you think the matter is settled? ;) Oh, yay, your eta explains it.

IMO you should just remove that reference all together because there is already plenty of evidence for it without getting into speculation.

Yea, some say it must be therein, you want it removed... *sigh*.

Alys Karstark: A Brief Rundown

Yippie-yay-yaeh!

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Well its not my thread, just my 2 cents. It could actually support your argument more because its an example of a brown haired person and a silver haired Targ having brown haired children which is basically exactly like Lyanna and Rhaegar.


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@BQ Are all of Alys' brothers dead? Or, does she inherit before some younger sibling? (I am probing a bit, ad have forgotten most of that chapter. I will need to reread. The most striking part of that chapter, that has stuck with me the longest, is that Alys had a strong attraction for Jon.)


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@BQ Are all of Alys' brothers dead? Or, does she inherit before some younger sibling? (I am probing a bit, ad have forgotten most of that chapter. I will need to reread. The most striking part of that chapter, that has stuck with me the longest, is that Alys had a strong attraction for Jon.)

Harry is alive and being held captive. Part of Arnolf's plan is to get the IT to kill Harry by declaring for Stannis (but he's made a deal with Roose Bolton). Eddard and Torrhen are dead. Alys tells Jon when they met that Harry is the true heir of Karhold and that she is Harry's heir because "a daughter comes before an uncle"

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If your going to list Rhaenyra's children as evidence that Targs don't have to have silver hair, you should include that they are probably bastards by house Strong and that both parents probably didn't have the Targ features.

IMO you should just remove that reference all together because there is already plenty of evidence for it without getting into speculation.

Edit: While its possible they were Leanors children, the odds are astronomical that all 3 would have brown hair, while all 3 children with Daemon had silver.

Why? The comparison is between children with at least one Targaryen parent with the classical Valyrian looks. The three Velaryon princes can remain as an example. Though I agree that it should be stated that either this was because of the fact that their biological father was someone without the classical Valyrian looks, or because one of their grandparents did not have the classical looks.. on other words, simply state that "at least one of their parents had the classical Valyrian look".

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Harry is alive and being held captive. Part of Arnolf's plan is to get the IT to kill Harry by declaring for Stannis (but he's made a deal with Roose Bolton). Eddard and Torrhen are dead. Alys tells Jon when they met that Harry is the true heir of Karhold and that she is Harry's heir because "a daughter comes before an uncle"

Ah. yes, me 'members, now. Thanks.

Harry is being held by the Freys. Jaime has ordered all of the captives to be sent to King's Landing. Things are really going to get interesting. Jail Break!

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If your going to list Rhaenyra's children as evidence that Targs don't have to have silver hair, you should include that they are probably bastards by house Strong and that both parents probably didn't have the Targ features.

IMO you should just remove that reference all together because there is already plenty of evidence for it without getting into speculation.

Edit: While its possible they were Leanors children, the odds are astronomical that all 3 would have brown hair, while all 3 children with Daemon had silver.

I get your point but even if they're not Laenor's kids, they're definitely Rhaenyra's. So they're still three examples of Targaryens who don't look like Targaryens, even if they're bastards. Genetics don't give a shit for legal constructs like bastardy.

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To set up some comparisons



Alys looks like Arya Stark.


Arya Stark looks like Lyanna Stark.


(ergo, Alys looks like Lyanna Stark)



Alys is being forced to marry Cregan, a marriage set up by her ambitious uncle.


Lyanna is being forced to marry Robert Baratheon, a marriage set up by her ambitious father.



Alys flees the marriage and runs straight to an honorable man (with a penchant for black)


It's not clear if Lyanna ran to Rhaegar, ran into Rhaegar, or even if Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar...but we do know that Rhaegar is reported to be an honorable man (with a certain penchant for black, worn both at HH and on the Trident)



Alys and Sigorn marry to prevent Cregan was taking Alys as his bride.


Possibly (gods, possibly, people...let's not turn this into a polygamy debate) Lyanna and Rhaegar married to prevent Lyanna from having to marry Robert



When Cregan Karstark arrives at the Wall, he is thrown into a cell.


When Brandon Stark arrives at the Red Keep he is thrown into a cell.



Alys is quite a willful girl--saucy and sassy.


Lyanna is quite a willful girl--saucy and sassy.



Sigorn of Thenn is an "outsider" at the Wall. As a Wildling, he is different than the rest of the Westerosi. Worth noting that the Thenn's are different than the Wildlings too but that Sigorn has enough sense to want to make peace because of a common enemy. (Others)


Rhaegar of House Targaryen is an "outsider" in Westeros given his Targ/Valyrian roots and status as prince. He is also a reserved individual and melancholy and withdrawn. He has enough sense, though, to want to make peace within Westeros, possibly because he realized something was foretold to happen at some point.


Jon Snow is an "outsider" at the Wall--ADWD sees him becoming more distant with his brothers because of his LC status. But he has enough sense to want to make peace because of a common enemy.



Ok, that's what I got right now.

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I get your point but even if they're not Laenor's kids, they're definitely Rhaenyra's. So they're still three examples of Targaryens who don't look like Targaryens, even if they're bastards. Genetics don't give a shit for legal constructs like bastardy.

I have no idea why...but I thought of THIS when I read the part in Bold.

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Another important piece is that Alys seems to be appealing to a higher authority, be it Jon or Stannis.

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady. I will write to Stannis on your behalf, but—”

Alys Karstark laughed, but it was the laughter of despair. “Write, but do not look for a reply. Stannis will be dead before he gets your message. My uncle will see to that.” -ADwD p. 592

Jon passes on it, saying that that is the business of kings (another possible reference/joke that Jon is in fact a king), and not his problem, it is something that Stannis needs to deal with.

Later in the discussion, she appeals to Jon under the assumption that Jon is the son of Ned Stark, “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.” - ADwD p. 592

Lastly, Jon takes action because it is a pressing matter of time. Jon cannot wait for Stannis, because of the possible double cross, which also jeopardizes Harrion Karstark.

If Rhaegar was somehow pressed for time, not because of prophecy, but because of the wave of marriages impending. Possibilities include, but are not limited to: because of the Stark-Tully-Baratheon block that was building or because other options were being proposed to Brandon and/or Robert, possibly involving past infidelities by one or both of them (Ashara or someone else) and Rhaegar was trying to pressure them into 'doing the right thing.'

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Another important piece is that Alys seems to be appealing to a higher authority, be it Jon or Stannis.

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady. I will write to Stannis on your behalf, but—”

Alys Karstark laughed, but it was the laughter of despair. “Write, but do not look for a reply. Stannis will be dead before he gets your message. My uncle will see to that.” -ADwD p. 592

Jon passes on it, saying that that is the business of kings (another possible reference/joke that Jon is in fact a king), and not his problem, it is something that Stannis needs to deal with.

Nice! And, Jon is the one who gives Alys away because she has no father present. We see another king do this--albeit under rather sad circumstances: Joff gives Sansa away to Tyrion.

Also as for the higher authority...Alys's plea to Jon is this:

You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father's name, I beg you. Protect me.

Seems like a bit of an allusion to THIS (and of course it isn't Obi Wan that helps her, it's Luke Skywalker, son of a royal woman and a non-royal man...who lived with his uncle....)

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I like that parallel of Lyanna appealing to Rhaegar to protect her from an unwanted marriage (as Dany muses when she daydreams about Daario swooping in to save her from her marriage to Hizdahr). I wonder if it might have gone like this:



/somewhere in the Riverlands, Lyanna runs into Prince Rhaegar and his entourage, supposedly Dayne, Whent, Martell, JonCon, Lonmouth and Mooton/:



Lyanna: Oh, Prince Rhaegar, save me! I don't want to marry Robert!


Rhaegar /damsel-in-distress alarm sounding/: Sweet lady, but I have no authority -


Lyanna: You don't need authority, I just need to marry someone else ASAP! Oh, my gallant Prince, I've kept those roses you gave me and -


Rhaegar /alarmed/: Wait, wait, wait, I'm married already. /a poignant look at his companions/ How about you, guys?


Dayne: Uh-oh - the vows.


Whent: Ditto.


Martell: Ditto (and my paramour would have my balls)


JonCon: Not the right gender, sorry.


Lonmouth aka future Lemoncloak /alarmed/: But-but she already broke my nose once!


/everyone looks expectantly at Mooton/


Mooton, pale: I cannot! Robert would kill me!


/everyone looks expectantly at Rhaegar/


Rhaegar: But I said - /pauses to think/ It seems that I happen to be the only eligible male in Westeros who can get two wives and get away with it, so -


Lyanna: Let's marry then! I know of a convenient place over here, we just take a little boat trip.


/a couple of hours later/


Lyanna: Alright, Rhae-Rhae, and now we need to get me preggers ASAP, or else dad wouldn't believe I married you.


Rhaegar: Wut? Dat ain't what we agreed on!


Dayne /coughs/: I happen to know of a nice cosy place, off the road and far enough from your dad, Rhae-Rhae. S'ppose me and Ossie should come along, just in case, and the rest of you guys head for KL to do the damage control should some fuss take place.


JonCon: Sure, sure, I'll handle, Tywin himself wouldn't do any better. You go have fun, Rhae-Rhae. /sniffs/


/the company parts/


Mooton /wailing from the distance/: Robert will kill us all!


Martell: Shush, it ain't gonna happen. First, he'd need way more men to do us all away, second, it's not like some war is gonna break out because one girl ran away from home.




(wouldn't know about you but it's New Year's Eve here, so have fun!)


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<SNIP>

(wouldn't know about you but it's New Year's Eve here, so have fun!)

Now I feel even worse for Jon Con!

And Happy New Year's Eve to you too! (And everyone else)

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