Ser Leftwich Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I like that parallel of Lyanna appealing to Rhaegar to protect her from an unwanted marriage (as Dany muses when she daydreams about Daario swooping in to save her from her marriage to Hizdahr). <snip> (wouldn't know about you but it's New Year's Eve here, so have fun!) Does Cersei say anything about not having to re-marry after Tywin is dead? Either because she is Lady Lannister or because she is Regent? (Meaning there is no higher authority that can pressure her to remarry?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 <snip>Ygrain, you just made my day! :lmao: Happy New Year to you! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Now I feel even worse for Jon Con! The best ideas always come ex post. It might go on "But should your hot brother turn up, I might come up with something that will make him breathless." On a second thought, it would break the pace of the dialogue, though :frown5: Ygrain, you just made my day! :lmao: /just don't tell GRRM I wrote some fanfic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Does Cersei say anything about not having to re-marry after Tywin is dead? Either because she is Lady Lannister or because she is Regent? (Meaning there is no higher authority that can pressure her to remarry?)No Kevan was actually in authority over her and well he does not die till the very end so we never got her reaction to that. She may attempt to resume power but that would come into conflict with the Tyrells and a familly member of hers was named Warden of the west and I assume we will be seeing him.As for Alys isn't Harrion in Maidenpool? Not exactly sure what is going on with him, house Mooton was pardoned by Tommen, and Wylis passed through there on his way back to White Harbor after Jaime freed him. With Tywin and Kevan dead and Cersei out of the loop I am not sure what is keeping him there. I don't think Tommen or even the Tyrells were privy to Tywins dealings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 No Kevan was actually in authority over her Actually he refused the Handship at first, because Cersei would not agree to his condition that she return to the Rock. He didn't take any power in King's Landing until Cersei was imprisoned and Pycelle & co sent for him. In the meantime she thinks: Stannis did not frighten her, no more than Mace Tyrell did. No one frightened her. She was a daughter of the Rock, a lion. There will be no more talk of forcing me to wed again. Casterly Rock was hers now, and all the power of House Lannister. No one would ever disregard her again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 (wouldn't know about you but it's New Year's Eve here, so have fun!) Happy New Year's Eve, to you, and everyone else here :) ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Actually he refused the Handship at first, because Cersei would not agree to his condition that she return to the Rock. He didn't take any power in King's Landing until Cersei was imprisoned and Pycelle & co sent for him. In the meantime she thinks:Yeah I know I am talking about the epilogue of Dance, after she got out of prison and when Kevan died. We don't have a good idea of her authority after his death and it would seem it would conflict with her current situation that she does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 If Rhaegar was somehow pressed for time, not because of prophecy, but because of the wave of marriages impending. Yes! GRRM certainly gave hints via Alys' visit to the Wall and her dire situation, something she felt she has no choice on anymore. Here we see Alys, but knowing GRRM, we must expand our scope to include the subtle picture of situations as to something like this must have happened with Lyanna. Although it was not exactly similar situation, Alys' and Lyanna's, it's enough of a subtle evidence for me, but only once I've concluded/agreed with the R+L=J theory. If not, then this won't make sense. Likewise, with the situation with Jon and Gilly, when Jon made the promise to Gilly that he would protect her baby and when he is old enough he will reveal who he really is and to let him seek the truth. Similar to how Ned promised Lyanna, to keep Jon safe, to train him with the sword and to read, that when the time when he is old enough and able to understand, Ned will reveal who Jon really is. It was this promise that he did not fulfill, making him feel the overwhelming sense of shame and sorrow when he thought about Jon in the dark cells, part his promises to Lyanna broken. “They’ll burn my babe, then. The red woman. If she can’t have Dalla’s, she’ll burn mine.” “Your son has no king’s blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Yes, Happy New Year's (or Eve depending on what part of the world you might be in!) @Ygrain, loved the fic :) We talk a lot about marriages 'round these parts, and I'm wondering does Mel have the authority to marry Alys and Sigorn? Neither the groom nor the bride are of the Red Faith, correct? And Mel is a bit of an outcast (or whatever GRRM once called her) inside the Red Faith. Little things that are sticking out to me in the wedding chapter --Sigorn is not one for dancing. Much like Rhaegar and his rather taciturn nature--Alys is quite intelligent and sure of the situation in Westeros.--Alys' maiden cloak was fashioned together out of a NW cloak with a Karstark sunburst quickly sewn on. Makes me wonder what R and L would have used. Rhaegar's cloak from HH with something hastily put upon it?--Speaking of cloaks...Alys' bride cloak has "wisps of crimson silk". Ned recalls, while in the black cells, that when Rhaegar took the filed at HH, he had plumes of scarlet silk (not a whole lot of difference) The snowflakes were melting on her on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Winter Rose crown, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 We talk a lot about marriages 'round these parts, and I'm wondering does Mel have the authority to marry Alys and Sigorn? Neither the groom nor the bride are of the Red Faith, correct? And Mel is a bit of an outcast (or whatever GRRM once called her) inside the Red Faith. Jon arranged the marriage under or because of the authority of King Stannis. Mel is kind of the High Septon or at least personal priest to the King, so that draws water with Stannis's people and Selyse's people. Mel must seem magical and impressive to the wildings, so they would be on board. Lastly, Alys probably doesn't care as long as it is witnessed/binding to whomever can enforce it, namely Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I also think that it was the impending marriage to Robert that sort of forced Rhaegar's hand - after all, this is what Dany's account suggests, and I don't think this is coincidence that we have this musing of Dany's in the same book as Alys' flight. Lyanna seeking Rhaegar's help would also be in line with the Ned quote about her wolf blood that led her to an early grave. Actually, it fits even more if Lyanna was the instigator because it gives her a greater role than if she just agreed to go on with what Rhaegar proposed. BTW, there seems to be a strong streak of wilfullness among the females of Stark blood when it comes to a man of their choice/unchoice, twice with disastrous results (Lyanna, Sansa), Alys' yet remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 As for Lyanna's wedding cloak... Arthur might have lent her his, the white would do, but how would they arrange the grey direwolf? With coal, and "you will get this washed later"? (I swear, I haven't even drunk anything, I don't know where this comes from :D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Winter Rose crown, anyone?Are you suggesting that Dany foresaw Alys' wedding at the Wall?"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Jon arranged the marriage under or because of the authority of King Stannis. Mel is kind of the High Septon or at least personal priest to the King, so that draws water with Stannis's people and Selyse's people. Mel must seem magical and impressive to the wildings, so they would be on board. Lastly, Alys probably doesn't care as long as it is witnessed/binding to whomever can enforce it, namely Stannis. So the LC *cough King cough* told his HS what to do and....surprise! She did it. (daddy Rhae-Rhae would be proud) I also think that it was the impending marriage to Robert that sort of forced Rhaegar's hand - after all, this is what Dany's account suggests, and I don't think this is coincidence that we have this musing of Dany's in the same book as Alys' flight. Lyanna seeking Rhaegar's help would also be in line with the Ned quote about her wolf blood that led her to an early grave. Actually, it fits even more if Lyanna was the instigator because it gives her a greater role than if she just agreed to go on with what Rhaegar proposed. BTW, there seems to be a strong streak of wilfullness among the females of Stark blood when it comes to a man of their choice/unchoice, twice with disastrous results (Lyanna, Sansa), Alys' yet remains to be seen. Agreed with the first part. Given how Alys is being connected to Arya and then in turn to Lyanna, so much so that we can take out the middle person of Arya) I sense that Alys's version of events might more closely resemble Lyanna's. As to the second, I think we can extend it beyond the Stark's blood and their close kin (like Karstark). Maege Mormont, anyone? As for Lyanna's wedding cloak... Arthur might have lent her his, the white would do, but how would they arrange the grey direwolf? With coal, and "you will get this washed later"? (I swear, I haven't even drunk anything, I don't know where this comes from :D) HAHAHAH Are you suggesting that Dany foresaw Alys' wedding at the Wall?"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness..." Nope. I'm suggesting that Alys is given a nice little wintery crown from snow just as Lyanna was given a nice little wintery crown (of roses). Dany's vision has nothing to do with Alys except in how it too relates to Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Winter Rose crown, anyone? Totally Lyanna reference! But only if one agrees with R+L=J theory, if they don't this doesn't make sense. In a way, it's not satisfying, if one do not accept it. GRRM really wants his readers to read carefully. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. “Were they your kin?” he asked her quietly. “The two we killed?” “No more than you are.” “Me?” He frowned. “What do you mean?” “You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.” “I am.” “Who was your mother?” “Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who. She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?” “I never knew my mother. Or any such song.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Happy New Year's Eve, to you, and everyone else here :) !Happy New Year's Eve!🎉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Possibly reading too much into this but....it might be a subtle parallel. Cregan Karstark shows up just outside of Castle Black with four mounted men at arms. Brandon Stark shows up at the Red Keep with four mounted men (Glover, Royce, Arryn, and Mallister) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Possibly reading too much into this but....it might be a subtle parallel. Cregan Karstark shows up just outside of Castle Black with four mounted men at arms. Brandon Stark shows up at the Red Keep with four mounted men (Glover, Royce, Arryn, and Mallister) "Cregan Karstark had turned up a day behind his niece. With him came four mounted men-at-arms, a huntsman, and a pack of dogs, sniffing after Lady Alys as if she were a deer. Jon Snow met them on the kingsroad half a league south of Mole’s Town, before they could turn up at Castle Black, claim guest right, or call for parley. One of Karstark’s men had loosed a crossbow quarrel at Ty and died for it. That left four, and Cregan himself." - ADwD p.650 The full quote, for reference. In context, there are more men, and one dies, so it does not work as well, but not insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I think the Alys Karstark situation is important for the fact that Jon Snow says "marriages are matters for the king". Seems very much like foreshadowing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 "Cregan Karstark had turned up a day behind his niece. With him came four mounted men-at-arms, a huntsman, and a pack of dogs, sniffing after Lady Alys as if she were a deer. Jon Snow met them on the kingsroad half a league south of Mole’s Town, before they could turn up at Castle Black, claim guest right, or call for parley. One of Karstark’s men had loosed a crossbow quarrel at Ty and died for it. That left four, and Cregan himself." - ADwD p.650 The full quote, for reference. In context, there are more men, and one dies, so it does not work as well, but not insignificant. True, there are 5, but the 5th is the huntsman who is singled out as if he doesn't belong to Karstark the same way the men-at-arms do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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