R+L=J v.124

[Alia of the knife]

I didn't mean to dismiss your opinion, so I apologise if it came across like that. I was just explaining that I don't want to start looking up the history of succession law in European Monarchies because I don't think it's relevant (also I find it super boring) in this particular instance.

Martin based aSoIaF on the War of the Roses, and used a book written on life in the fourteenth century as his reference. He is a HUGE history buff, loves it and is quite informed absent a degree of his own in Medieval history.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, Happy New Year's (or Eve depending on what part of the world you might be in!)

@Ygrain, loved the fic :)

We talk a lot about marriages 'round these parts, and I'm wondering does Mel have the authority to marry Alys and Sigorn? Neither the groom nor the bride are of the Red Faith, correct? And Mel is a bit of an outcast (or whatever GRRM once called her) inside the Red Faith.

Little things that are sticking out to me in the wedding chapter

--Sigorn is not one for dancing. Much like Rhaegar and his rather taciturn nature

--Alys is quite intelligent and sure of the situation in Westeros.

--Alys' maiden cloak was fashioned together out of a NW cloak with a Karstark sunburst quickly sewn on. Makes me wonder what R and L would have used. Rhaegar's cloak from HH with something hastily put upon it?

--Speaking of cloaks...Alys' bride cloak has "wisps of crimson silk". Ned recalls, while in the black cells, that when Rhaegar took the filed at HH, he had plumes of scarlet silk (not a whole lot of difference)

Winter Rose crown, anyone?

Well, you are probably going to hate this but I never felt the marriage with Sigorn and Alys was a good thing. My first thought when I read it was Night's King and Queen. The "Frosty Crown," first marriage at the wall since the Night's King and Queen.

Though honestly I think we get another wedding at the wall. Unless you count the Jon/Val imagery when she returns.

[BearQueen87]

1.Well, you are probably going to hate this but I never felt the marriage with Sigorn and Alys was a good thing. My first thought when I read it was Night's King and Queen. The "Frosty Crown," first marriage at the wall since the Night's King and Queen.

2.Though honestly I think we get another wedding at the wall. Unless you count the Jon/Val imagery when she returns.

1. Interesting. I don't hate it, necessarily. But neither of them are "Others" in the sense that the Night's Queen apparently was (by legend at least.)

2. Sure I could see another wedding at the Wall. Val...I don't know what to do with. I think she's going to be important in bringing Jon back from Ghost Puppy (along with Mel to solidify the Ice and Fire imagery). Post coming back to his body, I don't know what lies ahead for Jon romantically or even political marriage.

[Alia of the knife]

That's also true, I agree. So Lyanna and Rhaegar are unique in that they chose each other, we imagine at least. We aren't given many details about how the marriage of Alys and Sigorn comes about behind the scenes, but Alys does go more willingly than she would have to another individual. And despite his Thenn-ness (new word!) Sigorn is willing, though not for love but because it's his best option.

Exactly, and they/he found a way around the rules. Noble men kidnapping noble women in those times was a tactic to put everyones back against the wall in order to accept the inevitable- a child that could not be born out of wedlock without such dishonor as to cause a major feud between the Great Houses.

A marriage had to happen.

[Ser Leftwich]

Well the stuff about Aegon and Rhaenys is still in there, I don't really see how Viserys being heir changes anything in that sense. Unless the argument is that killing the heir is somehow worse than killing a prince who is not the heir. Also it would just be really dumb for him to invent something that never happened just to slightly deflect attention from what Gregor may have done. People would read it and think "wait, that wasn't how it happened" and start questioning everything else he's claiming. Why should anyone believe his claim that Aerys may have ordered their deaths when he's started the chapter by making stuff up?

He doesn't just ignore the sack, he describes it and just leaves out that Gregor killed Elia and Aegon. Since he's not tying Robert or the Lannisters to their murders there's no reason to use "but Viserys was the heir" as some kinda weird deflection.

Generally, I agree, this does not gain Yandel, or anyone, anything.

The main issue (or at least my main issue) with this information is that it is single source, secondary, and well after the fact. There is no independent verification.

[Ser Creighton]

1. Interesting. I don't hate it, necessarily. But neither of them are "Others" in the sense that the Night's Queen apparently was (by legend at least.)

2. Sure I could see another wedding at the Wall. Val...I don't know what to do with. I think she's going to be important in bringing Jon back from Ghost Puppy (along with Mel to solidify the Ice and Fire imagery). Post coming back to his body, I don't know what lies ahead for Jon romantically or even political marriage.

1. Give it a little time, that one can actually be worked on. Seriously though I don't mean to suggest Alys and Sigorn are the Night's King and Queen, but rather I felt Martin was recalling the idea for some reason.

2. I think Bloodraven will bring Jon back actually, sort of like with Bran. There will probably be a battle at the wall and not sure what Mel or Val will do, I think one will take care of his body, patch him up. But I don't think it will be both.

[RumHam]

Generally, I agree, this does not gain Yandel, or anyone, anything.

The main issue (or at least my main issue) with this information is that it is single source, secondary, and well after the fact. There is no independent verification.

You could say the same thing about Ned's dream, and probably a lot of other things. I think the Viserys thing totally fits with what we know of Aerys and his situation. Especially since right before we're told Viserys is the heir we get:

When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar.

So if he thinks the Dornish betrayed Rhaegar, joined the rebels and are coming to depose him and proclaim Rhaegar's half Dornish son king, of course he's not gonna leave the boy as his heir.

[BearQueen87]

1. Give it a little time, that one can actually be worked on. Seriously though I don't mean to suggest Alys and Sigorn are the Night's King and Queen, but rather I felt Martin was recalling the idea for some reason.

2. I think Bloodraven will bring Jon back actually, sort of like with Bran. There will probably be a battle at the wall and not sure what Mel or Val will do, I think one will take care of his body, patch him up. But I don't think it will be both.

1. Ah, I see. I thought you meant they'd be NK and NQ 2.0

2. I trust Bloodraven as far as I can throw him (which is to say not at all as the dude is half tree). I don't think he wanted Jon to die, but I think he might have some other (small o but big O works too) things on his mind.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Time-zone-related spoiler:

Happy new year 2015!

[Ser Leftwich]

You could say the same thing about Ned's dream, and probably a lot of other things. I think the Viserys thing totally fits with what we know of Aerys and his situation. Especially since right before we're told Viserys is the heir we get:

So if he thinks the Dornish betrayed Rhaegar, joined the rebels and are coming to depose him and proclaim Rhaegar's half Dornish son king, of course he's not gonna leave the boy as his heir.

Again, agreed, it does make a sense.

It comes down to different methods of obfuscation by the author. Varys's story about the man from the Vale applies to both Hugh and LF. Ned's dream is 'fevered' so not completely accurate. Sansa and Barristan have selective/faulty memories. Yandel is writing later and might have been incorrectly informed. Those have to be weighed in different ways.

ETA: How does the line go: "There are lies, &%$# lies, and statistics."

[Ghost's Shadow]

Rhaenys,

Gelukkig Nieuwjaar! :cheers:

[Alia of the knife]

On the topic of who came first, Aegon would come before Jon, and then both Aegon and Jon would come before Viserys.

BUT, Viserys could come first if a few things happened

- The marriage between Elia and Rhaegar put aside due to her being barren, and Aegon declared a bastard. (I suppose at this point its assumed Aerys would be unaware of Jon).

Or more simply.

- Rhaegar and his line was dishinherited posthumously by Aerys himself the way that Aerion Brightflames was passed over.

It might be interesting in the case of the Starks if a son of Brandons did show up. One declaration of legitimacy by any king, and Neds line is done, but hopefully Martin won't get into the weeds with that scenario.

[Alia of the knife]

1. Ah, I see. I thought you meant they'd be NK and NQ 2.0

2. I trust Bloodraven as far as I can throw him (which is to say not at all as the dude is half tree). I don't think he wanted Jon to die, but I think he might have some other (small o but big O works too) things on his mind.

This.

BR, Mel, the "Kindly" Man, I trust Varys more.

[RumHam]

On the topic of who came first, Aegon would come before Jon, and then both Aegon and Jon would come before Viserys.

BUT, Viserys could come first if a few things happened

- The marriage between Elia and Rhaegar put aside due to her being barren, and Aegon declared a bastard. (I suppose at this point its assumed Aerys would be unaware of Jon).

Or more simply.

- Rhaegar and his line was dishinherited posthumusly by Aerys himself the way that Aerion Brightflames was passed over.

It might be interesting in the case of the Starks if a son of Brandons did show up. One declaration of legitimacy by any king, and Neds line is done, but hopefully Martin won't get into the weeds with that scenario.

Is there any example of someone being declared a bastard after the fact? I think as long as they were married when he was conceived (born?) he's legit. It's not clear if Aerys totally disinherited Aegon or just explicitly named Viserys heir, pushing Aegon back behind him and his sons.

[Ser Creighton]

1. Ah, I see. I thought you meant they'd be NK and NQ 2.0

2. I trust Bloodraven as far as I can throw him (which is to say not at all as the dude is half tree). I don't think he wanted Jon to die, but I think he might have some other (small o but big O works too) things on his mind.

1. More like Martin was playing with recollections. That he wants to keep the idea in your head. The wedding itself remided me more of Poole and Ramsey. You had fake Arya and a girl said to be Arya, so I kind of felt this was happening at the same time. That we are sort of seeing an inverse of the events around the original Night's King. Stannis as the light King going to Winterfell, but Winterfell is held by a very bad false nothern lord.

2. I am not suggesting you trust BR, but rather I do associate him with Ghost and yes I feel there is a big picture play in the works by him.

3. I think we will get a better idea of the why Martin placed a wedding there. But it's like Arya the lie at Winterfell, and a girl wrongly thought to be Arya at the Wall. Ramsey known for his cruelity and Sigorn actually being gentle. The 7 and the Old gods, the Karstarks in the middle, one working against Jon and one working for Ramsey or the Boltons. Or even one working for one Crown and one working for another. We see the contrast between the two unions.

[BearQueen87]

Is there any example of someone being declared a bastard after the fact? I think as long as they were married when he was conceived (born?) he's legit. It's not clear if Aerys totally disinherited Aegon or just explicitly named Viserys heir, pushing Aegon back behind him and his sons.

Declared by whom? Cause Joff comes to mind (as do Myrcella and Tommen, especially with Stannis's letter in Clash)

[RumHam]

Declared by whom? Cause Joff comes to mind (as do Myrcella and Tommen, especially with Stannis's letter in Clash)

I thought of that too, but there the idea is that they've always been secret bastards. That's different from Robert being unaware of the incest and setting Cersei aside and then declaring that because of that his children by her are now bastards and can't inherit.

Edit: I'm guessing that technically the king could declare anyone a bastard and that would be that, I just don't think it's ever happened to our knowledge.

[Ser Creighton]

Time-zone-related spoiler:

Happy new year 2015!

Happy New Year, to you and everyone else, which reminds me, it's time to shower and get ready. So not in the mood for this. Is really any different than a regular party night. You go out and you drink, you get fireworks and you lie to yourself about something are sure you will stop doing this year.

Resolution? Hmmmmmm I promise I will be? Nice to people I don't like. No that's not going to happen. I promise I will stop rolling my eyes when idiots speak. Nope that won;t happen either. I promise I will not get married and drive my mother bat shit crazy. Ohhhhhh I think I got a winner, though I am suppose to stop doing something, fuck! I'll, I'll... stop making resolutions I have no intention of keeping. That's the one.

Happy new year.

[JonSnow4President]

Happy New Year, to you and everyone else, which reminds me, it's time to shower and get ready. So not in the mood for this. Is really any different than a regular party night. You go out and you drink, you get fireworks and you lie to yourself about something are sure you will stop doing this year.

Resolution? Hmmmmmm I promise I will be? Nice to people I don't like. No that's not going to happen. I promise I will stop rolling my eyes when idiots speak. Nope that won;t happen either. I promise I will not get married and drive my mother bat shit crazy. Ohhhhhh I think I got a winner, though I am suppose to stop doing something, fuck! I'll, I'll... stop making resolutions I have no intention of keeping. That's the one.

Happy new year.

I think you just created a paradox that'll destroy the universe. Thanks a lot.

[Ygrain]

Is there any example of someone being declared a bastard after the fact? I think as long as they were married when he was conceived (born?) he's legit. It's not clear if Aerys totally disinherited Aegon or just explicitly named Viserys heir, pushing Aegon back behind him and his sons.

If you want a RL example, that's what Henry did with the children of his wives who fell out of favour - completely removed them from the succession line