The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part I

[MoIaF]

Just noticed your ETA, thought it'd be helpful to have the Cersei text as well (Cersei 7, AFFC)

Thanks - that's a good contrast/comparison between the two.

[BearQueen87]

Thanks - that's a good contrast/comparison between the two.

Cersei actually call it assault, by the way. She thinks in terms of victim and abuser when it comes to Robert and hers marital relationship. However, with both Drogo and Hizzy later, Dany never classifies herself as such.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Edit: I meant to include a point about Cersei and Dany's handmaids, too. Kings have Hands of the King and Queens have handmaids. As people have pointed out, Dany's handmaids double as instructors for her as well as servants - she receives lessons from her handmaids on lovemaking, enabling her to progress past the second stage (as described by BearQueen87) of her sex life with Drogo. While Dany receives lessons and sexual release from Irri, Cersei doesn't receive instruction from Taena - as others have pointed out here, she turns into Robert and wants to see what it feels like to be a cruel lover. Based on Taena's information (or manipulation) Cersei has her longtime handmaid brought to Qyburn and made part of the torture/sacrifice that results in the creation of Ser Robert Strong.

I really like the comparison between, Robert Strong and the dragons. I wonder whther Robert Stong will be Cersei's trump card just as the dragons have been for Dany.

A few points, clustered somewhat around Drogo and Rhaegar, but centered more on the concepts of leadership and the "true king":

I say that Drogo raped Dany. I doubt that any character in Essos would agree with me; perhaps no one in Westeros would agree. I'm not a moral relativist, neither historical nor cultural. I do, however, think that the attitudes and opinions of the people of the relevant time and place have to be considered.

My view of Drogo's motivations is important here: Why did the man expend so much time and effort on the marriage to a Targaryen princess? The main reason was his desire for strong sons. Mating with the last female descendant of Aegon the Conquerer would be an excellent way of bringing this about. The khal was, no doubt, struck by the young woman's beauty. He was also at least a reasonably intelligent man, and he would have valued (though not truly loved) his bride. It makes sense for him to start out gently with a little female who grew up in cities and had no sexual experience. In fact, I think it would have been wiser for him to be gentle for a longer time. However, he was a Dothraki. His entire moral orientation revolved around strength and toughness. Weakness is contemptible. Neither boys nor girls in the tribe would be treated with kid gloves. I don't know that young boys were ever used sexually, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that such things happened. Certainly, Drogo must have endured rough treatment as a youth. One has to be able both to take it and to dish it out. That is life on the Dothraki sea.

And Daenerys proves herself on the Dothraki sea; she proves herself by Dothraki standards. I see this as central to the relationship that develops between the khal and the khaleesi. As Drogo observes his bride not only survive, but turn incredibly tough and fierce, the man has to start thinking, "This is great. She is even better than I hoped." That would be as good a basis for a Dothraki version of love as there could be. Drogo is the strongest khal, and he wants at least one son who will achieve even more than he has. As things developed with Dany, the possibilities would have looked very good indeed.

The matter of proving yourself is of general interest. I once started a thread entitled "A Few Good Words for the Dothraki." A central point was this--the nomads have a better view of leadership than do the Westerosi monarchists. The latter really can't deal with an unqualified person in the top job. Their obsession with some kind of "true king," determined entirely by a strict rule of succession, leads to serious problems. They are lucky that it hasn't caused even more problems than it has. They would do well to consider the beliefs of other people, even "savages." The statement that "a khal who can't ride is no khal" has a lot going for it. If a man falls off his horse, we won't follow him. it doesn't matter who his father was. Obviously, others should not take on all Dothraki values. The general idea that "A man who can't do the job is not the man for the job" should be embraced. Unfortunately, few in the 7K are likely to see this clearly.

All of this leads to a consideration of the near worship of men like Rhaegar. But I have spent more words and time than I intended on the first part of this piece. I'll deal with part II tomorrow.

Comparing the different cultures in the story has always interested me. In addition to the Dothraki, I believe the Westerosi could also learn a lot from the free folk as well, you have to prove yourself to be a leader there also. It's actually ironic that both these groups are viewed as savages but their leadership system is slightly better than that of Westeros.

Latest news from Ran, the world book was not wrong Rhaegar was passed over and Viserys named heir and he in turn named Dany. Aegon is not the legal claimant of the throne and neither is Jon. In fact it leaves Jon in a bit of Limbo as he is not the heir to the throne nor is he the heir to the North. If R+L married he is a Targ and last in the line of succession and if not he is bastard and not directly in the line of succession.

Viserys was right about something.

Rhaegar was not passed over. Ran says that Viserys was named heir, after Rhaegar's death.

So that means Rhaenys and Aegon were passed over in succession, considering Rhaegar's children were still alive at the time.

It would mean that the line of succession would pass through Viserys and Dany, although Tyrion clearly thinks otherwise. But, there would remain a huge bias in favour of a male Targaryen, rather than a female.

I think it also comes down to who knows what happened at the time, I'm interested to see Barristan's views once he finds out that Aegon is alive.

[Seams]

Regarding the loss of hair, Dany also loses her hair in the Dothraki sea at the end of ADWD, she mentions it very briefly, it's not something that she focuses on. It's not important to Dany although it's highly symbolic once again of rebirth. For Dany is just a way of starting over, which she is very apt to do.

I've also finally read the three Dunk & Egg stories and it might add a layer of clarity or meaning to tie the baldness / rebirth symbolism to the baldness of young Prince Aegon in those stories. He uses his baldness as a disguise in contrast to Cersei's mention of having no hair to hide behind when she is shaved. He is also clearly being compared to an egg (duh). In the third story, it is fairly clear that he symbolically "hatches" so the rebirth symbolism is used in his story, too (even though he will presumably have more growing to do in the subsequent stories).

I'm guessing that GRRM would put Egg and Dany on similar tracks in terms of eggheadedness = leads to hatching = personal growth. Also hatching = becoming a dragon, of course. (Although Egg's cousin, Bloodraven, would have an association with raven's eggs, presumably, in addition to a dragon's egg.)

If Cersei is supposed to be the anti-Dany, what would be the opposite meaning for her baldness? Perhaps we will see her hatching plots in the next book? That doesn't seem like a rebirth - she's been doing that (badly) for some time. Dany's rebirths don't represent changes in course, really, but more of an awakening to new powers and self-confidence, as others have pointed out here. So maybe Cersei's rebirth will mark a further display of her lust for power and her ruthlessness, if that's possible. Maybe that's why Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong have entered the stories. Qyburn is Cersei's Mirri Maz Duur and Ser Robert Strong is her dragon-equivalent and, perhaps, her Drogo: with the name Robert, maybe Ser Robert Strong is intended to represent some qualities of the husband she hated in contrast to the husband Dany loved but who burned in the pyre in which she was reborn. Maybe I need to re-read the descriptions of Gregor Clegane's skull in Dorne to see if there are bald/egg references that might shed light on the way Cersei's baldness contrasts with Dany's baldness. Or maybe there are clues in the description of his helmet when he picks up Cersei outside the Red Keep that relate to the baldness motif.

Not to wander too far off onto the egg tangent, but I have wondered whether the constant eating of eggs in the Jon POVs is related to the hatching of Dany's dragon eggs. Lord Commander Mormont and Qhorin Halfhand eat hardboiled eggs before Jon accompanies Qhorin as a ranger for the first time. Dolorous Edd cooks the eggs (and mentions that he is jealous of them because they are in a warm cooking pot) and later asks Jon to make sure the wildlings don't eat all the chickens belonging to the Night's Watch. Are these chicken eggs symbols of Jon being reborn as a wildling and as a Lord Commander and as . . . whatever comes next for him? I hope Dolorous Edd will play a key role in Jon's continuing rebirth by ensuring that eggs are available at each stage where they are needed.

[BearQueen87]

Just a heads up but MOIAF moved us to part two since this one needs to be closed: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125862-the-parallel-journey-of-daenerys-targaryen-part-ii/