Jump to content

R+L=J v. 125


Kat

Recommended Posts

Maybe she struck a Prince?

I know Alia has theorized that Lyanna probably didn't take to Rhaegar finding as the KotLT very well. Little she-wolf with claws. If R and L parted at HH on confusing (to say the least) terms, then when she did meet him again, if they had not been communicating in the interim, then she might not react well.

Yeah we have no indication of where Benjen was when Lyanna was abducted. I think he just stayed in Winterfell for everything to be the Stark there (as we know he served that purpose for the Rebellion). But I'm wondering about Lyanna.

As I suggested in the last thread, she could have been in Riverrun with Brandon or with Ned and Robert in the Vale. If she was with Brandon, I could see her going to Harrenhal to get the Whents for Cats marriage. If she was in the Vale, I could see her making her way to Riverrun to attend Brandons marriage and running into Rhaegar on the way. Ned and Robert didn't seem to be going to Brandon's marriage as they were in the Vale when Brandon rode on KL so perhaps Lyanna left them to see the wedding. 10 miles from Harrenhal is a big Web, but if she's coming from Riverrun or the Vale, it fits

I think Ben had to be at WF.

For me, I think Lyanna was sent to HH for refinement. She needs to become a proper southron wife for Robert, something she wasn't really at present. It's exactly what Cat says about Arya before Ned goes south in AGOT: heaven knows Arya could use some refinement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How old is Alys? I got the feeling she was about the same age as Jon, which sounds like it makes Benjen too young to be Alys' father.

IIRC she's almost 16; another potential parallel with L.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah we have no indication of where Benjen was when Lyanna was abducted. I think he just stayed in Winterfell for everything to be the Stark there (as we know he served that purpose for the Rebellion). But I'm wondering about Lyanna.

This is something that's been bothering me recently, as I was wondering about Benjen's role in things. I have without really thinking about it always assumed that Benjen was at Winterfell when Rickard left for King's Landing, and probably started the muster of the North so that Ned could get going as soon as he arrived back in the North. Having started actually thinking about it, I've begun to have some doubts.

My first doubt stems from the question of Ned's journey north. If Benjen is rousing the North, wouldn't it be easier and safer for the Northern army to meet Ned at Riverrun, where he has to go to marry Cat? Maybe that's just because Benjen was too young to handle Northern bannermen, but it looks likely he was pretty close to the age Robb was when he rallied them and lead them into battle himself rather than just rallying them in the name of an older Lord Stark.

My second doubt is more fundamental, but perhaps more easily answered. The entirety of Benjen's history between Harrenhal and taking the black from the wiki: "During Robert's Rebellion, Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell, but once his brother Eddard returned to Winterfell shortly after the end of the Rebellion, with an heir of his own, Benjen joins the Night's Watch, for reasons unknown." That's it, with no citations. I can't for the life of me figure out where the most basic fact that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion actually comes from. Is it from the app?

There is this SSM:

6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW.

Looking at this objectively, it actually doesn't state that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion, it states that he was the Stark in Winterfell at the end of the rebellion and remained so until Ned returned. That he was also the Stark in Winterfell at the beginning of the rebellion is purely an assumption.

So, could it be that Benjen was somewhere else entirely at the start of the rebellion, thus there was no Stark in Winterfell when Rickard left, until Ned returned to call the banners? If Benjen returned to Winterfell at some time during the perhaps as much as 18 months between then and Ned's return at the end of the rebellion, the SSM still fits fine.

Can anyone think of a counter to this? Because if not, it opens up some very intriguing possibilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know Alia has theorized that Lyanna probably didn't take to Rhaegar finding as the KotLT very well. Little she-wolf with claws. If R and L parted at HH on confusing (to say the least) terms, then when she did meet him again, if they had not been communicating in the interim, then she might not react well.

I think Ben had to be at WF.

For me, I think Lyanna was sent to HH for refinement. She needs to become a proper southron wife for Robert, something she wasn't really at present. It's exactly what Cat says about Arya before Ned goes south in AGOT: heaven knows Arya could use some refinement.

Well we don't know if Lyanna really needed refinement. We know she fought Benjen when she was younger but at Harrenhal she doesn't seem to have done anything that Robert didn't approve of. Or at least Ned doesn't remember it and the KotLT theory doesn't have anything that Robert would have wondered about.

But Lyanna at Harrenhal to have learned Lady manners wouldn't have been out of the question. It was the seat of Cats mothers house and would have served to strengthen relations

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, depending no the gap between Benjen and Ned, likely too old to be Benjen's son?

Thats what I am not sure about, Benjen's age that is. If he is only a year or two younger than Lyanna, then it's possible. Lyanna at 16 Benjen at 14 or so. I've thrown this idea out there a couple of times in the past but have never been sure about Benjen's age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[snip]

I am rather suspicious of Ben myself. He has to have some sort of involvement in all this--just think about from an emotional stand point with Ned. Ned comes home and has all these secrets. Would he not want to turn to Ben? And then, as it turns out, Ben has some secrets of his own? And so Ben decides to seriously follow up with the NW to keep all the secrets?

I've toyed with the idea that Ben was the go-between of R and L. R has his squires send letters to Ben (not uncommon) that are really from R and really for L. But I'm not sure how much faith I put into it.

If anything, I think Ben knows more about Lyanna and whether or not she intended to go off with R or not.

Well we don't know if Lyanna really needed refinement. We know she fought Benjen when she was younger but at Harrenhal she doesn't seem to have done anything that Robert didn't approve of. Or at least Ned doesn't remember it and the KotLT theory doesn't have anything that Robert would have wondered about.

But Lyanna at Harrenhal to have learned Lady manners wouldn't have been out of the question. It was the seat of Cats mothers house and would have served to strengthen relations

We know she would have carried a sword had Rickard let her. I think that speaks to some level of refinement needed. She also dumped a glass of wine on her brother at HH.

Thats what I am not sure about, Benjen's age that is. If he is only a year or two younger than Lyanna, then it's possible. Lyanna at 16 Benjen at 14 or so. I've thrown this idea out there a couple of times in the past but have never been sure about Benjen's age.

No one is, sadly. Suspicious once again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats what I am not sure about, Benjen's age that is. If he is only a year or two younger than Lyanna, then it's possible. Lyanna at 16 Benjen at 14 or so. I've thrown this idea out there a couple of times in the past but have never been sure about Benjen's age.

So, it's possible. I don't get the why though?

So, could it be that Benjen was somewhere else entirely at the start of the rebellion, thus there was no Stark in Winterfell when Rickard left, until Ned returned to call the banners? If Benjen returned to Winterfell at some time during the perhaps as much as 18 months between then and Ned's return at the end of the rebellion, the SSM still fits fine.

Can anyone think of a counter to this? Because if not, it opens up some very intriguing possibilities.

Who else is there? Brandon was on his way to riverrun, and then KL. Rickard was on his way to riverrun, and then KL. I'm not sure if Lyanna is even an option. Ned was in the Vale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, depending no the gap between Benjen and Ned, likely too old to be Benjen's son?

She says she'll be 16 on her next birthday. Tough to be confident with timelines especially when GRRM rarely is, but we hear reports of the Redwyne fleet heading through the broken arm in the same chapter, so a lot has happened in 300AC before this point. The way she says it suggests her 16th birthday isn't imminent, so we can assume she'll turn 16 in the second half of 300 at the earliest, and possibly as late as mid 301.

That puts her birthdate in Q3 284 at the very earliest. Thus conceived in Q4 283 at the very earliest. We don't know exactly when Benjen left for the wall, but I think at a stretch the timelines would just about allow it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who else is there? Brandon was on his way to riverrun, and then KL. Rickard was on his way to riverrun, and then KL. I'm not sure if Lyanna is even an option. Ned was in the Vale.

Do we know Rickard left for Kings Landing from Riverrun, then? I assumed he wasn't heading to Riverrun at the same time as Brandon was, or he wouldn't have let Brandon's party run off to Kings Landing like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She says she'll be 16 on her next birthday. Tough to be confident with timelines especially when GRRM rarely is, but we hear reports of the Redwyne fleet heading through the broken arm in the same chapter, so a lot has happened in 300AC before this point. The way she says it suggests her 16th birthday isn't imminent, so we can assume she'll turn 16 in the second half of 300 at the earliest, and possibly as late as mid 301.

That puts her birthdate in Q3 284 at the very earliest. Thus conceived in Q4 283 at the very earliest. We don't know exactly when Benjen left for the wall, but I think at a stretch the timelines would just about allow it.

In all honesty, working out the dates (aside from a few things with clearly defined relative points, aka 8-9 months, lasted a year, etc.) has always been Greek to me. I'll take your word for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am rather suspicious of Ben myself. He has to have some sort of involvement in all this--just think about from an emotional stand point with Ned. Ned comes home and has all these secrets. Would he not want to turn to Ben? And then, as it turns out, Ben has some secrets of his own? And so Ben decides to seriously follow up with the NW to keep all the secrets?

I've toyed with the idea that Ben was the go-between of R and L. R has his squires send letters to Ben (not uncommon) that are really from R and really for L. But I'm not sure how much faith I put into it.

If anything, I think Ben knows more about Lyanna and whether or not she intended to go off with R or not.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about that lead to wondering all this. What do the timelines allow? If we can't be certain that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell through the duration of the rebellion, he could have been up to all sorts of things. He could have been a go-between, he could have been accompanying Lyanna when she bumped into Rhaegar. Benjen could even be the person who told Ned where Lyanna was.

For that matter, can we even be sure that Benjen wasn't with Lyanna for some time after the kidnapping?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about that lead to wondering all this. What do the timelines allow? If we can't be certain that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell through the duration of the rebellion, he could have been up to all sorts of things. He could have been a go-between, he could have been accompanying Lyanna when she bumped into Rhaegar. Benjen could even be the person who told Ned where Lyanna was.

For that matter, can we even be sure that Benjen wasn't with Lyanna for some time after the kidnapping?

If I have my facts right, I think we can be sure.

First, I'm assuming there actually was at least one Stark in Winterfell, and that the available pool was Rickard, Brandon, Ned, and Benjen. Ned was in the Vale or fighting in the South, aside from a brief return to Winterfell early in the war. Rickard and Brandon were both on the way to Riverrun for the wedding, if I remember the facts. Which leaves Benjen. Rickard and Brandon clearly never return to Winterfell, so I think it has to be Benjen, doesn't it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we assume that Ben didn't break the rules and vanish, then yes, he has to be the Stark in Winterfell. (makes me wonder if Ben didn't sneak out or something...)



But even if he wasn't sneaking out, that doesn't prevent him from a go-between for R and L (letters) or assisting in some way. What if R lost track of L? What if R thought L was at WF the whole time, but when he inquired (or had a squire do so), Ben passes along the information that L is really in the Riverlands. I'm not overly fond of this last idea because I think whatever Ben was doing, it had to be more major than an "oops" moment for him to (maybe) become more serious about joining the NW.



I also seriously wonder what Ben's reaction was to Baby Boy Jon when Ned brought him home. Ben knows his brothers--he would know what kind of man Ned was and how seriously he took his vows. Ben would totally question that baby being Ned's. And if baby boy Jon even remotely looks like Lyanna...Ben might have insisted that they needed to do something about this. (like raise Jon to be a prince someday)?


Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • implore where Rhaegar might have been headed around new year's when he left newborn baby Aegon for an errand that came to an end, as we know, with him "running away" with Lyanna Stark

Here's what we have:

Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark...

There's very little to go on really, but he could have been heading south on the King's Road, perhaps from Darry, or the crossroads. He might have been visiting Harrenhal. Perhaps the most intriguing possibility is that he had been visiting High Heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's what we have:

There's very little to go on really, but he could have been heading south on the King's Road, perhaps from Darry, or the crossroads. He might have been visiting Harrenhal. Perhaps the most intriguing possibility is that he had been visiting High Heart.

I know a few threads ago, Ygrain (maybe around 115?) tossed out some ideas that Rhaegar used to meet with the GoHH at Summerhall, sing her a song and her have tell him some prophecies. Makes me wonder if the GoHH once saw another wolf-girl...This is what the GoHH says to Arya

I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child.

Totally in line for Arya...but might it not also fit Lyanna....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I have my facts right, I think we can be sure.

First, I'm assuming there actually was at least one Stark in Winterfell, and that the available pool was Rickard, Brandon, Ned, and Benjen. Ned was in the Vale or fighting in the South, aside from a brief return to Winterfell early in the war. Rickard and Brandon were both on the way to Riverrun for the wedding, if I remember the facts. Which leaves Benjen. Rickard and Brandon clearly never return to Winterfell, so I think it has to be Benjen, doesn't it?

As per my last answer, how do we know Rickard and Brandon were heading south at the same time? I'd say the fact that Brandon rushed off half-cocked when word of Lyanna's kidnap came suggests that Rickard was elsewhere at the time. Perhaps Benjen was accompanying Lyanna to Riverrun, then heading back to Winterfell so Rickard would be able to leave for the wedding himself.

When Rickard was summoned to King's Landing, he'd have had no choice but to go and leave Winterfell Starkless if there was no sign of Benjen. What happened to House Stark after Rickard's departure kind of fits nicely with the Starkless Winterfell=bad mojo idea, and answers the question of why Ned had to make his risky return to Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As per my last answer, how do we know Rickard and Brandon were heading south at the same time? I'd say the fact that Brandon rushed off half-cocked when word of Lyanna's kidnap came suggests that Rickard was elsewhere at the time. Perhaps Benjen was accompanying Lyanna to Riverrun, then heading back to Winterfell so Rickard would be able to leave for the wedding himself.

When Rickard was summoned to King's Landing, he'd have had no choice but to go and leave Winterfell Starkless if there was no sign of Benjen. What happened to House Stark after Rickard's departure kind of fits nicely with the Starkless Winterfell=bad mojo idea, and answers the question of why Ned had to make his risky return to Winterfell.

Brandon wasn't heading south. Brandon was at Riverrun, then went off on some errand (promising Cat that he'd return in time to marry her) but then on the road he got the news about Lyanna.

The errand, most speculate, was to met the Wedding Party--probably including Rickard and I think Barbary Dustin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...