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R+L=J v. 125


Kat

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I know a few threads ago, Ygrain (maybe around 115?) tossed out some ideas that Rhaegar used to meet with the GoHH at Summerhall, sing her a song and her have tell him some prophecies. Makes me wonder if the GoHH once saw another wolf-girl...This is what the GoHH says to Arya

Totally in line for Arya...but might it not also fit Lyanna....

Right. It's interesting that the song the GoHH asks for is played on a harp, but maybe the answer to what Rhaegar was doing in the Riverlands is that he used to meet her at High Heart rather than at Summerhall.

The rest of the GoHH's rant at Arya: "I thought it was the lord who smelled of death [...] You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

The obvious assumption is this is a foreshadowing of Arya's darkening path, but it does seem a little odd. Why's GoHH so upset? It's not like Arya's the only one there who's grieving for lost family members. Maybe GoHH is reminded of Lyanna?

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Thats what I am not sure about, Benjen's age that is. If he is only a year or two younger than Lyanna, then it's possible. Lyanna at 16 Benjen at 14 or so. I've thrown this idea out there a couple of times in the past but have never been sure about Benjen's age.

I'd say that it's likely that their age difference is similar to Arya and Bran's (about a year). When Bran has his weirdwood vision, he first thinks he's seeing Arya (but is presumably seeing Lyanna). Then he decides that's not the case because then the boy (likely Benjen) would have to be Bran, but Bran's hair was never that long. So it seems that if it weren't for that (and how badly Lyanna beats Benjen playing at swords), Bran would've had more trouble telling that it's not him and Arya. So, at the very least, the age difference between Lyanna and Benjen wasn't obviously too different from Arya and Bran. If it were, Bran probably would have noticed that the boy was too young to be him.

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On the subject of things said to Arya that might apply to Lyanna, there's an interesting passage that may be more than it appears on the surface.

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I'll lay you down,

I'll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I'll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

This first verse seems to be about a prince ("and on your head a crown") wooing a maiden. The prince offers the maiden a crown, silks, all the good things associated with noble ladies, and of course the protection of his sword (i.e a good rogering, but also assuming the position of defending her).

Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, "Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?" But Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. "You want to fight, fight with me! She's a girl, and half your age! You keep your hands off o' her, you hear me?"

"I started it " said Arya. "Gendry was just talking."

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell."

The song is interrupted by the return of Gendry and Arya, who have been fighting. Lem (who wears a yellow cloak, the same colour as the dress the prince in the song offers) gallantly comes to Arya's defence, but Arya responds that she doesn't need defending. She's not some wimpy high-born maiden, she's a fighter, she's dirty, her pretty dress is torn, and she doesn't want anyone thinking that wasn't her own choice.

Tom winked at her as he sang:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a gown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

Back to the song, the maiden replies that she is no high-born maiden wanting yellow silk, crowns and feather beds, but is a maiden of the wilds. She refuses to accept his offer to turn her into a lady, but doesn't reject him. Instead she offers to take him on her terms rather than his.

"I have no gowns of leaves," said Lady Smallwood with a small fond smile, "but Carellen left some other dresses that might serve. Come, child, let us go upstairs and see what we can find."

Finally, Lady Smallwood directly applies the message of the song to Arya, as if Arya herself is the maiden -- obviously playing on Arya's wildness.

Now looking below the surface, there's obviously a parallel between the prince & maiden of the song, and Gendry & Arya. Gendry doesn't know it, but he's the son of a king. Arya's wearing a dress decorated with acorns, and earlier says "I look like an oak tree," which is mirrored by "the maiden of the tree" in the song. This may be foreshadowing a development of the relationship between Arya & Gendry.

However it's interesting to consider this passage in the light of the frequent paralleling of Arya and Lyanna. Rhaegar was a prince, in the position to offer crowns. Lyanna was wild like Arya, and is widely speculated to have been the KoTLT, thus "the maiden of the (laughing) tree", in the context of demonstrating her own willingness to fight rather than leave that to men. I'm not suggesting that the song is in fact one about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but perhaps that's the parallel we should look at? Arya has not, at least this far, shown any suggestion she'd accept Gendry the way the maiden does the prince in the song -- she's half his age, Lem reminds us. On the other hand, perhaps this tells us what Lyanna really thought about Rhaegar.

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On the subject of things said to Arya that might apply to Lyanna, there's an interesting passage that may be more than it appears on the surface.

This first verse seems to be about a prince ("and on your head a crown") wooing a maiden. The prince offers the maiden a crown, silks, all the good things associated with noble ladies, and of course the protection of his sword (i.e a good rogering, but also assuming the position of defending her).

The song is interrupted by the return of Gendry and Arya, who have been fighting. Lem (who wears a yellow cloak, the same colour as the dress the prince in the song offers) gallantly comes to Arya's defence, but Arya responds that she doesn't need defending. She's not some wimpy high-born maiden, she's a fighter, she's dirty, her pretty dress is torn, and she doesn't want anyone thinking that wasn't her own choice.

Back to the song, the maiden replies that she is no high-born maiden wanting yellow silk, crowns and feather beds, but is a maiden of the wilds. She refuses to accept his offer to turn her into a lady, but doesn't reject him. Instead she offers to take him on her terms rather than his.

Finally, Lady Smallwood directly applies the message of the song to Arya, as if Arya herself is the maiden -- obviously playing on Arya's wildness.

Now looking below the surface, there's obviously a parallel between the prince & maiden of the song, and Gendry & Arya. Gendry doesn't know it, but he's the son of a king. Arya's wearing a dress decorated with acorns, and earlier says "I look like an oak tree," which is mirrored by "the maiden of the tree" in the song. This may be foreshadowing a development of the relationship between Arya & Gendry.

However it's interesting to consider this passage in the light of the frequent paralleling of Arya and Lyanna. Rhaegar was a prince, in the position to offer crowns. Lyanna was wild like Arya, and is widely speculated to have been the KoTLT, thus "the maiden of the (laughing) tree", in the context of demonstrating her own willingness to fight rather than leave that to men. I'm not suggesting that the song is in fact one about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but perhaps that's the parallel we should look at? Arya has not, at least this far, shown any suggestion she'd accept Gendry the way the maiden does the prince in the song -- she's half his age, Lem reminds us. On the other hand, perhaps this tells us what Lyanna really thought about Rhaegar.

Wasn't Lonmouth (who is supposedly Lem) also one of the companions that set off from Kings Landing with Rhaegar?

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Brandon wasn't heading south. Brandon was at Riverrun, then went off on some errand (promising Cat that he'd return in time to marry her) but then on the road he got the news about Lyanna.

The errand, most speculate, was to met the Wedding Party--probably including Rickard and I think Barbary Dustin

Now, if Brandon heard that Barbrey was coming, he would have liked to make damn sure that she wouldn't talk to Cat, would he?

On the subject of things said to Arya that might apply to Lyanna, there's an interesting passage that may be more than it appears on the surface.

This first verse seems to be about a prince ("and on your head a crown") wooing a maiden. The prince offers the maiden a crown, silks, all the good things associated with noble ladies, and of course the protection of his sword (i.e a good rogering, but also assuming the position of defending her).

The song is interrupted by the return of Gendry and Arya, who have been fighting. Lem (who wears a yellow cloak, the same colour as the dress the prince in the song offers) gallantly comes to Arya's defence, but Arya responds that she doesn't need defending. She's not some wimpy high-born maiden, she's a fighter, she's dirty, her pretty dress is torn, and she doesn't want anyone thinking that wasn't her own choice.

Back to the song, the maiden replies that she is no high-born maiden wanting yellow silk, crowns and feather beds, but is a maiden of the wilds. She refuses to accept his offer to turn her into a lady, but doesn't reject him. Instead she offers to take him on her terms rather than his.

Finally, Lady Smallwood directly applies the message of the song to Arya, as if Arya herself is the maiden -- obviously playing on Arya's wildness.

Now looking below the surface, there's obviously a parallel between the prince & maiden of the song, and Gendry & Arya. Gendry doesn't know it, but he's the son of a king. Arya's wearing a dress decorated with acorns, and earlier says "I look like an oak tree," which is mirrored by "the maiden of the tree" in the song. This may be foreshadowing a development of the relationship between Arya & Gendry.

However it's interesting to consider this passage in the light of the frequent paralleling of Arya and Lyanna. Rhaegar was a prince, in the position to offer crowns. Lyanna was wild like Arya, and is widely speculated to have been the KoTLT, thus "the maiden of the (laughing) tree", in the context of demonstrating her own willingness to fight rather than leave that to men. I'm not suggesting that the song is in fact one about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but perhaps that's the parallel we should look at? Arya has not, at least this far, shown any suggestion she'd accept Gendry the way the maiden does the prince in the song -- she's half his age, Lem reminds us. On the other hand, perhaps this tells us what Lyanna really thought about Rhaegar.

A good catch - a proof that after so many threads, still everything hasn't been mined.

Wasn't Lonmouth (who is supposedly Lem) also one of the companions that set off from Kings Landing with Rhaegar?

It is not confirmed in word but he is a hot candidate.

ETA: One very obvious thing has dawned on me: we have argued that if Brandon's act at KL was about the supposed dishonour to Lyanna, it's pretty hypocritical of him because he had done the same to Barbrey. However, if he is also the one who dishonoured Ashara, it makes him even worse.

Damn, we really need TWOW.

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Some things to address from the last thread perhaps. Why would the Starks leave Lyanna at HH? Whent was Rhaegars man, and if he was working with the Whents I can't see them leaving her there, the Starks were pretty pissed.

The inn at the Crossroads has been proposed, but why would she be there? Where was her guard, she would not be alone and why would she not be with her family?

Could she have been at Darry? Ned stops there but we get no recollection, do we?

Lord Harrows Town or something to that effect? I tought it was a dump but do not recall if that is right.

I just can't imagine it would look good to Aerys if she stayed there or that the Starks would think this is a good idea.

Aegons birth? Rhaegar went missing 2 1/2 months after HH and eventually took Lyanna. Could this be connected to the time he saw JonCon at the Roost while returning from Dorne? Could he have gone to the Citadel as well being that far south?

Why indeed? House Whent had close ties to House Tully, and House Tully as far as we know, did not attend the tourney. Perhaps an indirect attempt of Hoster to make up to his late wife's family?

She says she'll be 16 on her next birthday. Tough to be confident with timelines especially when GRRM rarely is, but we hear reports of the Redwyne fleet heading through the broken arm in the same chapter, so a lot has happened in 300AC before this point. The way she says it suggests her 16th birthday isn't imminent, so we can assume she'll turn 16 in the second half of 300 at the earliest, and possibly as late as mid 301.

That puts her birthdate in Q3 284 at the very earliest. Thus conceived in Q4 283 at the very earliest. We don't know exactly when Benjen left for the wall, but I think at a stretch the timelines would just about allow it.

Alys will turn 16 on her next nameday, as stated halfway through 300 AC. So either in the second half of 300 AC, or he first half of 301 AC. If in 300 AC, she was born in the second half of 284 AC. And conceived either in Q4 of 283 AC, or Q1 of 284 AC. If in 301 AC, she was born in the first half of 285 AC, and conceived in either Q2 or 3 of 284 AC. Ned will have returned home late 283/early 284 AC, and Benjen left within a few months.

Do we know Rickard left for Kings Landing from Riverrun, then? I assumed he wasn't heading to Riverrun at the same time as Brandon was, or he wouldn't have let Brandon's party run off to Kings Landing like that.

Rickard was on his way to Riverrun when Brandon took off, they had been traveling together. Brandon took off, and raced to KL, got arrested, and then Rickard received his summons from Aerys. He could have finished the journey to Riverrun, and received his summons there.

Brandon wasn't heading south. Brandon was at Riverrun, then went off on some errand (promising Cat that he'd return in time to marry her) but then on the road he got the news about Lyanna.

The errand, most speculate, was to met the Wedding Party--probably including Rickard and I think Barbary Dustin

I doubt the errand was meetin Rickard and the wedding party. "we shall wed on my return" implies a rather lengthy journey, doesn't it? Yet meeting up with the wedding party alone would have been a matter of weeks.. to me, it sounded like it was a longer journey...

That Barbrey was part of the party... There is no hint for that at all.. why do you think that?

Wasn't Lonmouth (who is supposedly Lem) also one of the companions that set off from Kings Landing with Rhaegar?

No. That's someone's theory.

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Aegons birth? Rhaegar went missing 2 1/2 months after HH and eventually took Lyanna. Could this be connected to the time he saw JonCon at the Roost while returning from Dorne? Could he have gone to the Citadel as well being that far south?

I think you've missed a few months? There is no exact indication as to the passage of time, but it is clear more than 2,5 months passed between HH and Rhaegar leaving.

When he met JonCon at Griffins Roost, JonCon's father was still alive. The last few years before his exile, JonCon wad lord in his own right. So, no, this cannot be connected to Rhaegar's trip. Most likely Rhaegars travel to Dorne was connected to his official betrothal in early 279 AC.

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That Barbrey was part of the party... There is no hint for that at all.. why do you think that?

Her family is sworn to WF and she's having a fling with Brandon; I imagine she'd go south for the wedding and that Brandon would want to make absolutely sure Barbrey said nothing to Cat--like Ygrain said up thread.

(Plus, Brandon would likely want one last tumble)

Speaking of Alys Karstark, I was re-reading Bran's final POV from AGOT last night and this jumped off the page at me. Bran is telling Osha all about the Kings of Winter down in the crypt.

Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman.

So we have Cregan Stark vs Aemon Targaryen

And now, in present day, we have Cregan (Kar)strak vs Jon, whom many of us have speculated would have been named Aemon had he been raised by R and L!

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Anon Red Beard, anon, I am sure there is a perfectly logical fully text supported theory behind it. Marg is too, but shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, secret.

Not really. We know nothing about Lady Karstark and next to nothing about Benjen. Alys is described as very current Stark like and Benjen's little speech to Jon about missing out on life at the Wall is about it. Not really anymore reaching than a wedding on the Isle of Faces with Bloodraven as a witness.

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Not really. We know nothing about Lady Karstark and next to nothing about Benjen. Alys is described as very current Stark like and Benjen's little speech to Jon about missing out on life at the Wall is about it. Not really anymore reaching than a wedding on the Isle of Faces with Bloodraven as a witness.

Who has suggested that BR was a witness? That would be rather remarkable given his tree-like status.

And the wedding on the Isle of Face is a possibility once you accept that RL were married. You start to ask: well, where did that happen? And the Isle of Face with it's bazillion trees, Lyanan's friendship with Howland Reed, and a lot of mystery surrounding the IoF in general presents a solution. You're taking one hypothesis and making it sound utter crackpot (and adding your own twist that I can't recall anyone suggesting) whereas Lady Karstark + Ben Stark = Alys stems from nothing other than "stuff not in the text."

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ETA: One very obvious thing has dawned on me: we have argued that if Brandon's act at KL was about the supposed dishonour to Lyanna, it's pretty hypocritical of him because he had done the same to Barbrey. However, if he is also the one who dishonoured Ashara, it makes him even worse.

Damn, we really need TWOW.

Lady Barbrey speaks with forked tongue. Until I see something to confirm what she said to Theon, I will consider it just magicians patter. Ashara was dishonored by a man (why is Barristan keeping it a secret who dishonored Ashara?) at Harrenhal, and Barristan wished that she had looked to him instead of/in addition to looking to Stark. If a Stark had dishonored Ashara, wouldn't an option to look tot he king, or the prince be on the table, as well?

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I thought BR was witness through the trees. I didn't say it was utter crackpot about either hypothesis. Is utter crackpot milk churned crockery like Country Crock crackpot? Spreads easier than butter? :)

Sounds delicious ;)

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Aegons birth? Rhaegar went missing 2 1/2 months after HH and eventually took Lyanna.

There are some ambiguities in the timeline. Consider whether Elia at 6 months pregnancy would be at the tourney. ;) Consider when the false spring is likely to have occurred, very likely early in the year, and the snows got as far south as King's Landing at the end of the year. Then we have a fortnight of snow before the fires are setup for Rhaegar to have not seen. We do know that about two years (+/- 3 months) passed between Harrenhal and the sack because of Rhaenys', Aegon's, and Jaime's ages.

ETA: Rhaegar's disappearance is not time linked with Lyanna's disappearance, directly. Lyanna's disappearance was some time after. Take Brandon travels to Riverrun to duel with Littlefinger, then takes leave for at least a fortnight (Littlefinger is littered away after recovering enough to be moved). I do not see Brandon making that travel in dead winter, from the North. (I swear I saw an SSM about it recently, but have not relocated it.)

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Wishes from the end of the last thread:

We'd like to see a closer look at

  • snip

  • how the the emergence of (f)Aegon will effect Jon

snip

as some of the topics in the new R+L=J thread.

fAegon-Jon Relationship

First of all, I believe Jon will learn R+L=J in his dream in the crypts during his coma. Ned will tell him the truth and he will wake up as Jon Targaryen. He will have to overcome the storm of emotions resulting from this revelation because duty will call.

By the time Jon secures the Wall and the Boltons are defeated, I think fAegon will do massive achievements in the South and send ravens everywhere including the Wall to announce his return.

I don’t expect Jon and fAegon to meet each other. I also do not see any reason why Jon would not believe or at least hope that his half-brother might be alive and taking his kingdom back. I think he would cherish this idea because fAegon can end the game of thrones and help man the Wall, especially if he learns that he has a half-brother up there.

I wonder whether Jon might think of revealing his real identity to the people at the Wall or to fAegon. Especially if Stannis is thought to be dead, Jon might send another paper-shield to fAegon which includes

· R+L=J

· Jon’s oaths and duty (so that fAegon’s claim is not threatened)

· He aided Stannis only because he came to the Wall to help the NW

· He is extending guest right to the retinue of Stannis at the Wall and he will not lift it (so that fAegon does not request them)

I think Team fAegon might be seriously concerned about such information. It is also important to remember that there are many different circles with different amount of knowledge about the fAegon conspiracy. fAegon himself might be glad that there is another son of Rhaegar up there sworn to the NW. JonCon might think that it will improve their chances to convince the Realm to believe fAegon if there is another son of Rhaegar who acknowledges him. There can be no harm to accept Jon’s claim considering that he poses no threat to fAegon’s claim as a sworn brother of the NW and his story will surely be considered plausible by JonCon. he might also think that it would be a good PR to befriend the NW and the Starks. But those at the inner most circle like Varys and Illyrio, who hate the real Targaryens, will be wary of this revelation.

Stannis OTOH will be a serious problem. He will not see fAegon as his king nor will he withdraw his claim. I am not sure how long will he fake his death and how that will affect Jon and the things happening at the Wall.

It was relatively easier to support Stannis when there were only the Lannisters against him and Jon did not have much saying when Stannis entered the picture at the Wall. But this time, Stannis will be against his would-be half-brother.

Dany-Jon Relationship

Dany will arrive to Westeros when fAegon will already have made a good name but Stannis will be up there in the North and causing problems to Jon. Dany will antagonize both Stannis and fAegon. The Black Propaganda Machine will draw a highly despicable picture of Dany and sadly, all of those lies will contain a nugget of truth in them. Of course Jon might get suspicious of fAegon after Dany declares that he is an impostor. But as a result of this Black Dragon Propaganda, he will have a really hard time believing in Dany, who according to the rumors had her brother killed by her husband to take him out of the way. Now she will be seen as doing the same thing to another person in front of her in the succession line.

Having declared one son of Rhaegar as false, it is completely unknown how Dany will react to the revelation of R+L=J. But dealing with fAegon will make her highly suspicious of it. After the defeat of Stannis by Dany, the Northmen will retreat but they will not swear to Dany. The Second Dance will take its toll on Dany and she will deteriorate in a similar manner to Rhaenyra. I do not expect any sympathy between Jon and Dany, until they have a chance to work out their differences and misunderstanding, which will not likely happen during a civil war and icy Armageddon.

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fAegon-Jon Relationship

First of all, I believe Jon will learn R+L=J in his dream in the crypts during his coma. Ned will tell him the truth and he will wake up as Jon Targaryen. He will have to overcome the storm of emotions resulting from this revelation because duty will call.

I have an issue with the bolded. I don't think Jon will ever become "Jon Targaryen" because that's such a disserive to what makes Jon unique and special: he is not just a hidden Targ..he's a Stark-Targ. The first of his kind. I think when he wakes up, he'll still be Jon Snow, but a fully realized Jon Snow in that he has finally learned who he is. I think that might be GRRM's central undoing on the hidden prince trope; Jon will finally know that he is a Targaryen and legit, but he's not suddenly going to make his life all about taking back the throne and becoming the Targaryen prince. He has other things that are more important--thing that matter to Jon Snow, not Jon Targaryen, the last so of Rhaegar Targaryen.

Now, Jon may take the Stark-Targ name as his own once he is crowned king post-War for the Dawn, but I do not believe he will ever just be Jon Targaryen.

I don’t expect Jon and fAegon to meet each other. I also do not see any reason why Jon would not believe or at least hope that his half-brother might be alive and taking his kingdom back. I think he would cherish this idea because fAegon can end the game of thrones and help man the Wall, especially if he learns that he has a half-brother up there.

Agreed about the first. Even if Jon hears about fAegon, his reaction will be that the NW does not get involved and he has more important things to worry about. fAegon can do his dance to his heart's content, Jon has to secure the realm from the WW's.

Stannis OTOH will be a serious problem. He will not see fAegon as his king nor will he withdraw his claim. I am not sure how long will he fake his death and how that will affect Jon and the things happening at the Wall.

It was relatively easier to support Stannis when there were only the Lannisters against him and Jon did not have much saying when Stannis entered the picture at the Wall. But this time, Stannis will be against his would-be half-brother.

I'm not wholly convinced that Stannis will be surviving WOW, not fAegon for that matter. I think those other throne contenders will die and leave two standing: Dany and Jon. One has been fighting for the throne for a long time, the other will pretty much go "omgosh, guys. I have other shit to do! Leave me be!"

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