lady ginger Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Is it crazy to think that Jon, in his coma state (pure speculation of course) learns about his heritage, but also and more importantly about the PTWP/Dragon has 3 heads prophecies and his role, wakes up and learns about Dany and fAegon, and actually tries to unite them to the cause of fighting against another Long Night? I think that in this way is what he will care about his parents and what it all means..not taking a kingdom or being declared a Targ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I have an issue with the bolded. I don't think Jon will ever become "Jon Targaryen" because that's such a disserive to what makes Jon unique and special: he is not just a hidden Targ..he's a Stark-Targ. The first of his kind. I think when he wakes up, he'll still be Jon Snow, but a fully realized Jon Snow in that he has finally learned who he is. I think that might be GRRM's central undoing on the hidden prince trope; Jon will finally know that he is a Targaryen and legit, but he's not suddenly going to make his life all about taking back the throne and becoming the Targaryen prince. He has other things that are more important--thing that matter to Jon Snow, not Jon Targaryen, the last so of Rhaegar Targaryen. Now, Jon may take the Stark-Targ name as his own once he is crowned king post-War for the Dawn, but I do not believe he will ever just be Jon Targaryen. Being Jon Targaryen is not equal to pursuing the IT. I didnot suggest that. Aemon was a Targaryen too but he didnot pursue the IT after RR. Neither Jon will. He has a duty and he swore his vows. Declaring that he is not a bastard "just for the record" is what I expect from him. I'm not wholly convinced that Stannis will be surviving WOW, not fAegon for that matter. I think those other throne contenders will die and leave two standing: Dany and Jon. One has been fighting for the throne for a long time, the other will pretty much go "omgosh, guys. I have other shit to do! Leave me be!" I don't think there is enough time to bring Dany to Westeros before 3/4 of TWoW is done and that was before George declared that Dany will be spending even more time with the Dothraki than people think. Stannis might die at the end of WoW when he and Dany clashes but the Second Dance should start officially in late TWoW and take at least half of ADoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Ashara was dishonored by a man (why is Barristan keeping it a secret who dishonored Ashara?) at Harrenhal, and Barristan wished that she had looked to him instead of/in addition to looking to Stark. If a Stark had dishonored Ashara, wouldn't an option to look to the king, or the prince be on the table, as well? Not that king, though. Prince Rhaegar, not with that king being present.Dishonored by a northman, if she looked to Stark and you've brought the correct puzzle pieces together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Being Jon Targaryen is not equal to pursuing the IT. I didnot suggest that. Aemon was a Targaryen too but he didnot pursue the IT after RR. Neither Jon will. He has a duty and he swore his vows. Declaring that he is not a bastard "just for the record" is what I expect from him. But why wake up as Jon Targaryen at all? He's not even Jon Stark, at present. Why not wake up as Jon Snow--the fully realized one who recognizes himself to be both Targ and Stark, and choses to ally himself to neither, but to embody both? Doesn't that sound more like Jon than what you suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think you've missed a few months? There is no exact indication as to the passage of time, but it is clear more than 2,5 months passed between HH and Rhaegar leaving.When he met JonCon at Griffins Roost, JonCon's father was still alive. The last few years before his exile, JonCon wad lord in his own right. So, no, this cannot be connected to Rhaegar's trip. Most likely Rhaegars travel to Dorne was connected to his official betrothal in early 279 AC.Yeah I know I was talkiing about when he vanished from Dragonstone and KL, World Book says 2 moons and a fortnight after HH. And then it seemed he didn't pop till he took Lyanna, have no clue how long that was. But just speaking of him leaving home. May have read it wrong will post the quote later, in a hurry right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 But why wake up as Jon Targaryen at all? He's not even Jon Stark, at present. Why not wake up as Jon Snow--the fully realized one who recognizes himself to be both Targ and Stark, and choses to ally himself to neither, but to embody both? Doesn't that sound more like Jon than what you suggested? Because he is not a Snow. This will also be relevant when Robb's will is brought up by the Northern Lords. Jon will say that he is a Targaryen and a sworn brother of the NW. And not accepting his rightful surname would be disrespect to what R and L had to suffer for their love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Because he is not a Snow. This will also be relevant when Robb's will is brought up by the Northern Lords. Jon will say that he is a Targaryen and a sworn brother of the NW. And not accepting his rightful surname would be disrespect to what R and L had to suffer for their love. But like I said, I think that's Martin's central undoing of the hidden prince trope, in which, typically, once the hidden prince realizes who he is, his identity changes to reflect this new shiny name and lineage. Jon isn't going to chose one blood side over the other. And what is this "accepting his rightful surname"...? Yes, R and L were probably married but as Arya reminds us, "the women are important too." Simply taking the Targ name and neglecting his Stark name and heritage isn't what Jon represents (the great balance). He is not going to become Jon Targaryen anymore than he is going to become Jon Stark; moreover, and he might change what it means to be "Jon Snow." Jon Snow, books 1-5, was a bastard boy of the Night's Watch--but the fully realized Jon Snow who knows who is parents are and has come back from near death is going to realize that it doesn't matter if you're a bastard or true born or a Targ or a Stark when the world is about to end. If--if--he changes his surname, it won't be picking one over the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 But like I said, I think that's Martin's central undoing of the hidden prince trope, in which, typically, once the hidden prince realizes who he is, his identity changes to reflect this new shiny name and lineage. Jon isn't going to chose one blood side over the other. And what is this "accepting his rightful surname"...? Yes, R and L were probably married but as Arya reminds us, "the women are important too." Simply taking the Targ name and neglecting his Stark name and heritage isn't what Jon represents (the great balance). He is not going to become Jon Targaryen anymore than he is going to become Jon Stark; moreover, and he might change what it means to be "Jon Snow." Jon Snow, books 1-5, was a bastard boy of the Night's Watch--but the fully realized Jon Snow who knows who is parents are and has come back from near death is going to realize that it doesn't matter if you're a bastard or true born or a Targ or a Stark when the world is about to end. If--if--he changes his surname, it won't be picking one over the other. The undoing of that hidden prince trope happened when our hidden prince swore his vows to not take crowns or father children right from the beginning. And our hidden prince is not an oathbreaker. He takes his vows seriously. Arya's quote is not related to what is happening here with Jon. Taking father's name is not a neglection of the mother's name. If he is to reveal the knowledge of his true parents (which I believe he will), not taking his father's name does not make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The undoing of that hidden prince trope happened when our hidden prince swore his vows to not take crowns or father children right from the beginning. And our hidden prince is not an oathbreaker. He takes his vows seriously. I don't disagree with that, but that doesn't mean the trope can't keep being undone. And choosing one name over the other does not make sense for what Jon mythologicially represents. Arya's quote is not related to what is happening here with Jon. Oh...okay. (says the guy who comes up with huge theories based on quotes from multiple sources and then connecting them to present day events because of parallel word phrases). Please. It's relevant. Especially since the entire conversation is about bastardy and princes and has huge RL = Legit J hints. Taking father's name is not a neglection of the mother's name. If he is to reveal the knowledge of his true parents (which I believe he will), not taking his father's name does not make sense Of course he'll reveal it and Westeros won't give a damn by that point. But he's not going to rely on his father's name nor his father's royal blood, to become King or to do "the thing." He needs both of his parents blood to do the latter, and he doesn't want to be the former. So making himself Jon Targaryen doesn't make sense for Jon to keep fighting the WW and end the War for the Dawn. He doesn't need to be Jon Targaryen to do that. He needs to be a fully realized Jon Snow (which is really Jon Stark-Targaryen) who understands that his blood (his special, never seen before blood which is BOTH of his parents) is what is needed to do "the thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Not that king, though. Prince Rhaegar, not with that king being present.Dishonored by a northman, if she looked to Stark and you've brought the correct puzzle pieces together.But is there any other Northman at HH we have heard of? I can't recall any. Plus, the guy has to be plot-significant somehow. The longer I look at the passage, the more I think that regardless of the word choice, Stark is indeed the man who dishonoured Ashara. Though the crowning needn't always be a romantic gesture, Barristan does mean it romantically because of his unspoken feelings for Ashara, and he thinks that the crowning might have prevented Ashara's tragedy by drawing her attention to him instead of the wrong guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm gonna laugh my ass out if we discover it was indeed Brandon, and Barbry found out he got Ashara pregnant. She's the scorned woman in the story, I wonder if she indeed found out on her way South and she somehow made Brandon act foolishly in a way. Like, "Lyanna? She left with the Prince Rhaegar. He did to your sister what you did to me *evil laughter*". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm gonna laugh my ass out if we discover it was indeed Brandon, and Barbry found out he got Ashara pregnant. She's the scorned woman in the story, I wonder if she indeed found out on her way South and she somehow made Brandon act foolishly in a way. Like, "Lyanna? She left with the Prince Rhaegar. He did to your sister what you did to me *evil laughter*". I totally wouldn't put it past GRRM. (though it does make me wonder how Barbery found out in order to tell Brandon) I do think Brandon is the guy who got Ashara pregnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (though it does make me wonder how Barbery found out in order to tell Brandon) If she was on her way to the wedding with Lyanna, she saw them and could have told him a twisted version of the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Dishonored by a northman, if she looked to Stark and you've brought the correct puzzle pieces together. Interesting. Or dishonored by a member of another subset over which a "Stark" might have some degree of dominion....like a member of the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm gonna laugh my ass out if we discover it was indeed Brandon, and Barbry found out he got Ashara pregnant. She's the scorned woman in the story, I wonder if she indeed found out on her way South and she somehow made Brandon act foolishly in a way. Like, "Lyanna? She left with the Prince Rhaegar. He did to your sister what you did to me *evil laughter*". I think that for this to work, Ashara needn't have entered the equation at all. I have read a theory about Barbrey being somehow involved but it was weeded by crazy ideas like "Barbrey learned about R+L while still being in the North", or "Barbrey learned that LF was injured, went to visit him and they planned it together" etc. I'm not sure if Barbrey, or her father, would have wanted to attend Brandon's wedding, but if she did, she would have been problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If she was on her way to the wedding with Lyanna, she saw them and could have told him a twisted version of the facts. Ooooh. I do like that I think that for this to work, Ashara needn't have entered the equation at all. I have read a theory about Barbrey being somehow involved but it was weeded by crazy ideas like "Barbrey learned about R+L while still being in the North", or "Barbrey learned that LF was injured, went to visit him and they planned it together" etc. I'm not sure if Barbrey, or her father, would have wanted to attend Brandon's wedding, but if she did, she would have been problem. I could see Barbery wanting to attend the wedding in order to make Brandon uncomfortable; and when he learns of it, he goes riding to met her in order to either 1) send her home or 2) get her assurance that she won't spill the beans on all the things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think that for this to work, Ashara needn't have entered the equation at all. I have read a theory about Barbrey being somehow involved but it was weeded by crazy ideas like "Barbrey learned about R+L while still being in the North", or "Barbrey learned that LF was injured, went to visit him and they planned it together" etc. I'm not sure if Barbrey, or her father, would have wanted to attend Brandon's wedding, but if she did, she would have been problem. I could see Barbery wanting to attend the wedding in order to make Brandon uncomfortable; and when he learns of it, he goes riding to met her in order to either 1) send her home or 2) get her assurance that she won't spill the beans on all the things. I just reread the part when Barbrey talks about Brandon. One thing about her is that she blames everyone for Brandon not choosing her but Brandon himself. She also believed Brandon to actually be honest about not wanting Catelyn. She doesn't seem to be mad at him, though. She says "the day I discovered he would marry Catelyn...". Considering they were betrothed when Cat was 12 and Bran 14, I doubt that's the one last night they slept together. It's more likely she meant the day their wedding date was announced, when Brandon kicked Petyr's ass. By that time, Ashara had already given birth. Now, who know abouts Ashara? Lyanna, probably. She was in Harrenhal after all. Maybe Barbrey thought she got pregnant in purpose to "get" Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Yeah I know I was talkiing about when he vanished from Dragonstone and KL, World Book says 2 moons and a fortnight after HH. And then it seemed he didn't pop till he took Lyanna, have no clue how long that was. But just speaking of him leaving home. May have read it wrong will post the quote later, in a hurry right now. But the World Book does not specify the amount of months between HH and Rhaegar leaving. In the chapter The Year of the False Spring, the events after the tourney are described as such: The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city. As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here. Ned's description of the tourney, IIRC, as well as Meera's and Jojen's version of the tale, suggests that it was indeed spring-like weather during the tourney itself, placing the tourney in those two months of False Spring. However, before those two months of False Spring, the weather would have been sping-like, and the change from spring to winter won't have happened overnight either. "As the year drew to a close" can be taken rather loosely as well. And "winter returned", meaning, the transition period (if that's the correct term) from true spring weather to true winter weather, occured before. In the end, on the last day of the year, it began to snow.. winter had already returned shortly before that. Elia and Rhaegar were married in 280 AC, and Rhaenys was born in that same year, showing that Elia and Rhaegar were married in either January, February or March, and Rhaenys was born in either October, November, or December... The fact that Rhaenys was supposed to be three years old at her death during the Sack would suggest that the wedding took place in January (early in the month), and Rhaenys' birth in October (early to mid month). Rhaenys' age is not the only reason for that, btw. After her birth, Elia went on a ± 6 month bed rest period. Rhaenys' birth in early October would mean that Elia's bedrest period ended around the start of April. We know from text that Aegon was born by the time Rhaegar left, really, really early in 282 AC. The problem is, that from April to December we already have nine full months... needed for Aegon's pregnancy. Naturally, Elia's bedrest won't have been exactly 6 months.. perhaps it was 5,5.. perhaps it was even only 5.. Did both her pregnancies last 9 months? I will assume so, until it is stated otherwise. But for Aegon to have been born before Rhaegar leaves, there is only little time.. Which means that Elia must have gotten pregnant with Aegon around the end of March, start of April, in 281 AC, in order to give birth by the last few weeks of 281 AC/first few weeks of 282 AC. From here, I have to speculate a little, but I thought it might be possible that the comet seen the night of Aegon's conception was when Rhaegar and Elia had travelled to King's Landing on their way to Harrenhal.. Which could have led Rhaegar to believe she was pregnant, before Elia even knew it herself.. it will take some time to reach Harrenhal, and as you said, Elia most likely wouldn't have (been allowed to) travell(ed) if she had been in the last few months of her pregnancy. The way I see it, the Tourney itself would have taken place around May or June.. Elia's pregnancy at an early enough stage to not be known to Westeros, allowing her the freedom to travel. I agree that, had Elia been known to be pregnant at the tourney, a mention would most likely have been made by now (it would add a rather big layer to the insult done to Elia, yet not even Yandel mentions such). And "as the year drew to a close" can still take up a few months, where the weather slowly became colder again, the days a bit shorter, and such.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 ^^Where do you put the incident with the Kingswood Brotherhood where Ulmer put an arrow to Gerold's hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 ^^Where do you put the incident with the Kingswood Brotherhood where Ulmer put an arrow to Gerold's hand? I find that quite a difficult one.. While before, it seemed rather clear, the info that Rhaegar and Elia moved to Dragonstone shortly after their wedding has changed things.. Elia was on a riding trip, with Gerold at her side. So she wasn't on bedrest, and she was close to King's Landing... Perhaps before the wedding? Elia was on her way to KL for her wedding, with Gerold escorting her (like Barristan and Jaime escorted Cersei from CR to KL for her wedding to Robert). The problems with this scenario are that Gerold got injured during the attack, and was still injured when the attack was being led (otherwise, Arthur wouldn't have been in charge, Gerold would have been). And the campaigns against the brotherhood would, with this scenario, have lasted about a year... unlikely, imo. Perhaps after Rhaenys' birth, and thus after the bedrest period. That would place the attack in early 281 AC.. With the tourney halfway in the year, that puts a few months in between.. Would that be enough time for Arthur to find the smallfolk, petition to the king, and defeat the brotherhood? Possibly... we know that between the defeat of the brotherhood and Jaime receiving his summons to Harrenhal a minimum time of a month passes, but there doesn't have to be much time between Jaime receiving the raven and the actual tourney. It would be enough time for Gerold to have healed enough.. After her wedding Elia went to Dragonstone, and we don't have any textual evidence to assume she went to King's Landing in between. In fact, the tensions between Aerys and Rhaegar make that quite unlikely... In addition, Oswell Whent was free to be send to his brother, shortly after which the tourney was announced. This would either have been after the defeat of the brotherhood, or before the campaign ever started. The World Book gives two dates of the announcement (late 280 AC, and early 281 AC), but both would work. Elia's bedrest wouldn't have ended until the second month at the very earliest anyway... Her bedrest was said to have lasted "half a year", but naturally, that doesn't have to mean "exactly 6 months". It could be 5,5.. it could even be 5.. Which could make Elia being in KL possibly part of presenting Rhaenys to court.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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