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DoctorSwerve

Tyrion is not a secret Targaryen

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How do you reckon it's confirmed that Tyrion is not a Targ? Joanna came to KL in the year before Tyrion's birth, so rather than clearing anything up, TWOIAF seems to intentionally keep options open.

I don't think Tyrion is a Targ because it would maybe be a pretty cheap literary trick to do that (although GRRM could pull it off brilliantly I guess) - but I'm not sure TWOIAF helps the argument.

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Stop mentioning this, if I keep defending it I'll start viewing it as canon.


And then, the world will be engulfed by darkness.


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The WOIAF pretty much confirms this. But with the talk of Aerys' infidelity just before Tywin's marriage, Cersei and Jaime could both be Targaryens.

No, Cersei and Jaime were born a couple of years after the marriage. None of them seem to be secret Targs (thanks the Old Gods and the New).

Though I still see it possible that the twins are not Tywin's. He was gone alot from the Rock. Johanna could have had a lover.

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Tyrion is the only lannister kid who could even possible for him to be Aerys. Timing fits, they definitely had something and add all the little hint, hair color(where would a lannister get black hair? But withnBW roots makes sense now doesn't.) His eye color both the split of the dance, little things that when put together I don't understand the doubt.

JS being Rhaegar's hit me first read when Bob and Ned were in the crypts, Aerys and Tyrion second read when JS was giving oue first real look at the imp.

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Tyrion is the only lannister kid who could even possible for him to be Aerys. Timing fits, they definitely had something and add all the little hint, hair color(where would a lannister get black hair? But withnBW roots makes sense now doesn't.) His eye color both the split of the dance, little things that when put together I don't understand the doubt.

JS being Rhaegar's hit me first read when Bob and Ned were in the crypts, Aerys and Tyrion second read when JS was giving oue first real look at the imp.

Timing doesn't really fit for Tyrion either. Aerys and Johanna clearly didn't have a relationship at that point in time. Aerys' treated Johanna like shit every time they met post her marriage to Tywin.

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How Aerys treated Joanna does not matter. What matters is that she and he were at the same place for quite some time (most likely days, perhaps weeks) at roughly the same time Tyrion was conceived. Whether he apologized to Joanna and subsequently seduced her, whether she slept with him to get what she wanted (Aerys not accepting Tywin's resignation), or whether Aerys forced her to have sex with him (or flat out raped her) does not really matter. What matters is that Joanna and Aerys were physically close enough to have sex around the time Tyrion was conceived. That's an important fact, and most likely a hint towards Tyrion's true parentage.



Cersei and Jaime are out of the game as Aerys' children, as nothing suggests that Joanna and Aerys were physically close at the time the twins were conceived.


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Timing doesn't really fit for Tyrion either. Aerys and Johanna clearly didn't have a relationship at that point in time. Aerys' treated Johanna like shit every time they met post her marriage to Tywin.

Timing fits fine for Tyrion. Joanna was in KL in 272, Tyrion was born in 273. It could work perfectly, or it could turn out not to work at all; but with the details we currently have, the timeline doesn't help either the for or the against side.

As for treating Joanna like shit - that was all meant to humiliate Tywin, we hear. But the fact that Joanna would have likely despised Aerys would not have stopped Aerys from forcing her to have sex with him. He is the king.

I keep thinking now what explanation could be given for Tyrion Targ that doesn't feel cheap. I suppose if it's true that Aerys wanted to humiliate Tywin, what better way than to make him raise Aerys' son as his own. TPatQ talks at length about how "honoured" the husbands of women who got First Nighted by a Targ were, back on Dragonstone. Can you imagine Aerys saying that to Tywin, knowing full well that (a) it's the worst thing you can do to this proud man, and (b ) there's nothing Tywin can do about it, without coming out in public that his wife is carrying the king's bastard.

I wonder if GRRM made Tywin and Joanna cousins in order to make it plausible that Tywin wouldn't kill Tyrion? You'd think that if Tyrion weren't his blood, Tywin would have drowned him or smothered him, but as Joanna's son, he's also Tywin's first cousin, once removed. So perhaps the kinslaying taboo played a part in staying Tywin's hand, and that was the purpose of making Tywin so closely related to his wife?

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Timing doesn't really fit for Tyrion either. Aerys and Johanna clearly didn't have a relationship at that point in time. Aerys' treated Johanna like shit every time they met post her marriage to Tywin.

Yeah it does, JL and AT were both in the capital at the time. Aerys makes some off the wall comments to JL. The next morning Tywin tried to resign and Aerys wouldn't let him.

Nine months later Tyrion is born and Tywin has doubted his paternity ever since.

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Yeah it does, JL and AT were both in the capital at the time. Aerys makes some off the wall comments to JL. The next morning Tywin tried to resign and Aerys wouldn't let him.

Nine months later Tyrion is born and Tywin has doubted his paternity ever since.

About sums it up.

The question is why GRRM would specifically choose to not only maintain uncertainty about Tyrion's parentage, but actively encourage it at this stage by having TWOIAF reveal that JL may have been around Aerys around the time Tyrion was conceived.

Are we just being trolled by GRRM/Elio/Linda because the Tyrion Targ theory is so laughably wrong (that's how I interpreted all the stuff about "ice dragons")?

OR is it that with the series' end approaching, GRRM is sowing more seeds about this so that when the big reveal comes ("he IS a Targ!") it will seem believable and not cheesy?

That's the question.

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The whole thing comes from George himself, and only from him. Ran and Linda do not particularly like the theory that Aerys may be Tyrion's father, and they most certainly would not have been able to sneak something like that in. In fact, pretty much everything comes from George. Ran has said that he has invented the names of some of the books and maesters Yandel's cites, and he and Linda came up with the canonical explanation as to why the Tullys were stronger than the (former royal) houses Bracken and Blackwood by the time of the Conquest, but George had to approve any of that.


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The whole thing comes from George himself, and only from him. Ran and Linda do not particularly like the theory that Aerys may be Tyrion's father, and they most certainly would not have been able to sneak something like that in. In fact, pretty much everything comes from George. Ran has said that he has invented the names of some of the books and maesters Yandel's cites, and he and Linda came up with the canonical explanation as to why the Tullys were stronger than the (former royal) houses Bracken and Blackwood by the time of the Conquest, but George had to approve any of that.

I know Ran and Linda don't like the theory, so I thought they might have wanted to troll us - "Hey George, how about we throw in a crumb to the crazy Tyrion Targ theorists?" I'm not sure how George feels about the theory, but I just thought it's possible he might have been up for a laugh, knowing that this little tidbit (which might prove irrelevant in the end) would have us all salivating.

Anyway, no way to know that, so for now I'm just merely suspicious of being handed this potentially crucial bit of info so casually in TWOIAF ;)

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The whole thing comes from George himself, and only from him. Ran and Linda do not particularly like the theory that Aerys may be Tyrion's father, and they most certainly would not have been able to sneak something like that in. In fact, pretty much everything comes from George. Ran has said that he has invented the names of some of the books and maesters Yandel's cites, and he and Linda came up with the canonical explanation as to why the Tullys were stronger than the (former royal) houses Bracken and Blackwood by the time of the Conquest, but George had to approve any of that.

I do not think that George reveals his grand plans, red herrings etc. to Ran&Linda and even if he does, I do not think that Ran&Linda would give them away.

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Timing fits fine for Tyrion. Joanna was in KL in 272, Tyrion was born in 273. It could work perfectly, or it could turn out not to work at all; but with the details we currently have, the timeline doesn't help either the for or the against side.

As for treating Joanna like shit - that was all meant to humiliate Tywin, we hear. But the fact that Joanna would have likely despised Aerys would not have stopped Aerys from forcing her to have sex with him. He is the king.

I keep thinking now what explanation could be given for Tyrion Targ that doesn't feel cheap. I suppose if it's true that Aerys wanted to humiliate Tywin, what better way than to make him raise Aerys' son as his own. TPatQ talks at length about how "honoured" the husbands of women who got First Nighted by a Targ were, back on Dragonstone. Can you imagine Aerys saying that to Tywin, knowing full well that (a) it's the worst thing you can do to this proud man, and (b ) there's nothing Tywin can do about it, without coming out in public that his wife is carrying the king's bastard.

I wonder if GRRM made Tywin and Joanna cousins in order to make it plausible that Tywin wouldn't kill Tyrion? You'd think that if Tyrion weren't his blood, Tywin would have drowned him or smothered him, but as Joanna's son, he's also Tywin's first cousin, once removed. So perhaps the kinslaying taboo played a part in staying Tywin's hand, and that was the purpose of making Tywin so closely related to his wife?

And nothing stop her from telling a man name Tywin.

If Aerys ever said this to Tywin, Tyrion would be one dead baby and Aerys would join him. Tywin may be a proud man, but what became of Elia nd kids shows he is not a man afraid to live on with rumors to pay a slight.

And as final part, Jaime joining the kingsguard, would not have been the last straw.

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That is what I'm saying. The content of TWoIaF, if not the phrasing of the words, is 100% George - minus petty details like the names of some volumes/maester or the Tully thing. He put the Aerys-Tyrion clue in there, not Ran or Linda.



The process of the book was that George provided Ran and Linda with primary text which were then shortened/rephrased to fit into the book by Ran and Linda. Or written by Ran and Linda using notes from George they had had for years (background for the MUSH - if I remember correctly, then George had already envisioned the whole Targaryen family tree/much of the history from after the Dance up until now before TWoIaF was even planned).



There is also no reason to believe that anyone wants 'to troll' anyone with this book - or at least not in a way that is not obvious to anyone (the deaths of Elia and her children).



Giving subtle clues about things - Aerys having petrified dragon eggs Robert/the Iron Throne apparently no longer has, Aerys and Joanna being close in 272, etc. - is totally in line with the things he does in the books when Maester Colemon and Walder Frey both give Catelyn big clues as to who might Jon Arryn's real murderer, or when Renly gives the reader a very big clue that Littlefinger's dagger story was a blatant lie. George puts clues into his books, there aren't any red herrings. After all, this series is not a detective story...



And Ran/Linda do know more stuff than we do, however apparently not all that much/anything about the future of the series (apart from the finished chapters they have read), but most certainly some things about future Dunk & Egg stories, Egg's reign, perhaps even Summerhall. And, of course, they have read 'Fire and Blood' in its entirety (from the Conquest to the end of the Regency).



Wmarshal,



Joffrey was right, Tywin was afraid of Aerys. He did nothing to remove him, or to plot against him, despite the fact that he could have tried to kill him to seat Rhaegar on the Iron Throne.



We should also not really think we know how Tywin felt towards Aerys. In the end there was no friendship left. But in my opinion both Aerys and Tywin were married to each other, not so much to their wives. Their marriage went bad, and they continued their dysfunctional relationship until the very end because they were both too pride to file a divorce.



And I don't think we can assume that the Lannister army could have begun its march to KL after Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident. Which essentially means that Tywin originally may have intended to come to Aerys/Rhaegar's aid, or to pull a Walder Frey and declare for whichever side won in the end. When Rhaegar lost, he sacked KL, but if Rhaegar had won, he most certainly would not have done that.


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Wmarshal,

Joffrey was right, Tywin was afraid of Aerys. He did nothing to remove him, or to plot against him, despite the fact that he could have tried to kill him to seat Rhaegar on the Iron Throne.

We should also not really think we know how Tywin felt towards Aerys. In the end there was no friendship left. But in my opinion both Aerys and Tywin were married to each other, not so much to their wives. Their marriage went bad, and they continued their dysfunctional relationship until the very end because they were both too pride to file a divorce.

And I don't think we can assume that the Lannister army could have begun its march to KL after Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident. Which essentially means that Tywin originally may have intended to come to Aerys/Rhaegar's aid, or to pull a Walder Frey and declare for whichever side won in the end. When Rhaegar lost, he sacked KL, but if Rhaegar had won, he most certainly would not have done that.

Tywin was smart not afraid, he openly dared the darklyns to murder him.

But they did, Jaime's cloaking ended it, now, I think rape would have ended way quicker.

Tywin's march makes as much sense as well nothing. Tywin to beat Ned had to go before the Trident battle even began and around Rhaegar's and robert's hosts.

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Tywin was stupid to say openly what he said at Duskendale. I'm not sure Rhaegar would have thanked him if he had really gotten killed Aerys this way.



I never said Tywin knew Joanna was raped by Aerys, nor do I think she was. In fact, I think Tywin decided to resign as Hand the next day after Aerys insulted Joanna with the breast comment, and then Joanna went to Aerys, slept with him, and ensured this way that Aerys would not accept her husband's resignation, because she wanted him to remain Hand.


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Tywin was stupid to say openly what he said at Duskendale. I'm not sure Rhaegar would have thanked him if he had really gotten killed Aerys this way.

I never said Tywin knew Joanna was raped by Aerys, nor do I think she was. In fact, I think Tywin decided to resign as Hand the next day after Aerys insulted Joanna with the breast comment, and then Joanna went to Aerys, slept with him, and ensured this way that Aerys would not accept her husband's resignation, because she wanted him to remain Hand.

It showed he would kill Aerys if the chance showed.

Not saying you did, i mostly went on what you imagined on that one. Why would Joanna want that so badly? All so why would Aerys be the one to sleep with in this scenerio? That seems to be talk with Tywin thing. As what we see with CR and Lannisport the West is a glory to itself.

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