Tyrion is not a secret Targaryen

[Mithras]

I do not know if anyone else has said this or not but the only other character in the series that I can recall who had mismatched eyes of different colors is Shiera Seastar, a Trag bastard.

Euron Greyjoy has mismatched eyes too.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Euron Greyjoy has mismatched eyes too.

Is he a Targ bastard too?

:eek:

[Faceless Man Friday]

I will be greatly disappointed if Tyrion is a Targ. I believe it would take so much away from his relationship with Tywin if he were not his biological son.

[Lord Varys]

Bael's Bastard,

Jaehaerys II's section concludes with 'had sat the Iron Throne for scarce three years'. This suggests to me that Yandel did give us the time Jaehaerys II actually ruled, i.e. the amount of time that passed between his coronation and his death. Nothing suggests otherwise. There may be some special subset of time-reckoning with 'a years of the the kings' thing, but since that's not mentioned anywhere in the text we should ignore that.

That said, all I wanted to point out is that the margin of error is not as big as you originally suggested. If Joanna had already been visibly pregnant, she most likely would not have traveled to KL, and if the tourney occurred in late 272 AC, then we have only a small margin of months in which Tyrion could have been conceived to allow him to be born in 273 AC.

Tyrion is also not a (secret) Targaryen in any of those scenarios. He would be a Hill disguised as a Lannister. That's a difference. Sure, as a royal bastard he could get legitimized, or try to pull a Tyrion Truefyre, but one step at a time...

[Dragon's Daughter]

Is he a Targ bastard too?

:eek:

Assume everybody is a Targ until it is conclusively proven otherwise! (And maybe even then...)

[Ser Tongs]

I think the irony of Tyrion truly being Tywin's son is too good a part of Tyrion to make him a Targ now. He has cunning, loves whores, a good mind when it comes to having power (when he is hand). When Tywin is caught with Shae near his deathbed it just confirmed that Tyrion really is the next Tywin...and could very well be hand to the next king / queen. I don't think it's his destiny to be a Targ.

Also, TWOIAF lists Jon Snow's mother as unknown, while listing Tyrion's father as Tywin. For whatever that's worth.

Edit: Not worth much because it says the dad is Ned. Oh well. Still don't think Tyrion is a Targ ;)

[Lord Varys]

I think it is a way too narrow view of the Tyrion-Tywin relationship. Superficially Tyrion and Tywin may share some qualities, but especially the whoring part has to assessed very closely. Tyrion looks for love among whores because his father 'convinced him' that only whores could love him (the effect of the Tysha episode). But that's certainly not the reason why Tywin employs whores. And there is essentially no good reason why the hell Tywin should sleep with Shae in the very night before Tyrion is supposed to be executed at his own command.

Why the hell should Tywin look for comfort or pleasure in the arms of the woman who did the same for the son he hated and despised?

But if Tywin considers Tyrion to be Aerys' son, and if Tywin thinks Aerys has taken Joanna from (emotionally and physically, by conceiving Tyrion with her), then making use of the woman Aerys' son loved actually makes some weird sense in regards to 'payback issues'. 'You took Joanna from me, now I take the woman of the son you forced me to raise as my own before I chop off his head, too. See, you mad corpse? In the end everything that was yours now is mine'.

Not to mention that Tyrion is not really like Tywin at all. Tyrion actually outsmarts his rivals, and uses humor and irony to confuse other people. Tywin does not really understand the concept of humor/irony as a tool of power.

They have also completely different issues. Tywin is traumatized by the whole Tytos thing, and Tyrion by his father (and has to deal with the fact that he is dwarf).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yet Aerys does not accept this resignation. The best explanation for this would be that Aerys was in an unexceptional good mood at this morning, and one reason for that could be that he had just slept with Joanna (again).

Tywin wants to resign. Aerys doesn't like to agree with stuff that Tywin wants. So Aerys doesn't allow Tywin to resign. Joanna doesn't have to feature in that decision at all. In fact, Aerys doing the opposite of what Tywin wanted is mentioned specifically in the book, with multiple examples.

Bael's Bard,

actually, we can pinpoint the date of the anniversary tourney pretty well, with one presupposition, which is that anniversary tourneys and feast were staged at or near the date of the coronation/ascension.

Now, we know that Aegon V died at an unspecified date in 259 AC - I guess Jaehaerys II was crowned about a month later, or so, as they would first have to travel from Summerhall to KL. We also know that the Ninepenny Kings crisis broke out immediately after Summerhall, yet it is confirmed that Lord Ormund Baratheon, the new Hand, did only land with the Targaryen armies on the Stepstones in 260 AC, suggesting that Summerhall took place in the latter half of 259 AC (say, in September to November or so - I'd go with October).

We also know that Jaehaerys II sat 'scarce three years' on the Iron Throne, suggesting to me that he died either in the same month as his father in 259, or the month before.

If the tenth anniversary of Aerys' ascension was more or less ten years after his coronation, then it would have been roughly in the second half of 262 AC, perhaps even in the last month of that year, depending when exactly Aerys II was crowned (I imagine very shortly after his father's death, as there is no reason to believe that Aerys was not at court at that time).

Thus we cannot really say that the window is as open as you suggests, although the unknown is clearly Tyrion's exact birth date. Nothing suggests that Tyrion was born early, as he survived. But considering George's usual way with numbers and dates what we got in TWoIaF is effectively closer to a confirmation than a dismissal of that particular theory...

We can't state it exactly. It would take some time to marshall the armies, for example. All we know is that the fighting seems to have taken most of 260 AC.

And while the wording is "scare had he taken the crown..", that's still pretty vague. It could be an indicator for only a few months before the fighting started. It could be an indicator for a full year.

If it helps, all I've been able to find regarding Tyrion's moment of birth was that his birthday had passed in 283 AC after the Sack of KL Trident (Tyrion states he was 10 years old when Robert took the throne killed Rhaegar). That, unfortunately, leaves quite some months in the year for Tyrion's nameday to have occured. Still, it's a small start.

Edit: corrected misremembered quote

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

Aerys accepts Tywin resignation in 281 AC, though. It makes no sense to use that argument there, which is why I think we should not extend Aerys' erratic reverse psychology behavior to 'matters of life and death' (or rather whether he wanted him around or not) - which seems only limited to advice and suggestions Tywin makes, not to whether or not he wants to keep Tywin as his Hand. And we should also keep in mind that Aerys would have had to be pretty warm and nice to Tywin for Tywin to accept that Aerys did not accept his resignation. Aerys could not really have forced Tywin to continue to serve in the office if Tywin was determined to quit... After all, we could assume that Tywin did actually explain why he wanted to resign at this point, most likely remarking 'that it is evident for anyone at court that you no longer value my counsel, my opinion, my work, or my person, or the person of my wife. Thus it is only fitting if you look for a Hand who is more to your liking, etc.' Not sure how Aerys could then react with a 'What are you talking about. You are my best friend. I need you etc.'

More importantly, the whole 'I do exactly the opposite of what Tywin is suggesting' behavior only began/became a dominant character trait in Aerys throughout the 270s.

We don't know what Tyrion exactly meant when he spoke about his age. It could have been the Trident, the Sack, or - more likely - the formal coronation - which most likely was months after the war was ended, as this would have been a big show where many/all of the great lords would have been called to KL to swear fealty to their new king.

If Jaehaerys II had ascended the Iron Throne early in 262 AC - say in February or March - there would have been plenty of time for his troops to be marshaled in 259 AC and not in 260 AC. Especially since we know that the Ninepenny Kings apparently took the death of Aegon V as a sign/opportunity to strike but where still cut short in their campaign by Jaehaerys' swift reaction who used Egg's prepared battle plans and brought the war to the Stepstones. This suggests that the Iron Throne reacted very swiftly - that is 1-2 months time. The king commanded the Lords to call their banners - most likely on the southern kingdoms (Riverlands, Crownlands, Stormlands, West, Reach, and Dorne), Quellon Greyjoy took the Lannister men aboard his fleet at Lannisport, the Redwynes the Reach troops at Oldtown, and Ormund took the royal levies and his own to the Stepstones aboard the royal fleet from KL.

Anything else would only complicate things, as this would mean that Maelys and his guys essentially only sat on their asses and did nothing. After all, they already were on the Stepstones, and had already taken Tyrosh in 258 AC. Especially since we have to keep in mind that Summerhall really was a devastating blow for the surviving members of the royal family, and crippled the ruling capability of the Iron Throne for quite some time, depending who died at Summerhall besides members of the royal family and Dunk...

But anyway, the point in this whole thing is that we are talking about a literary work here. We got the year of the anniversary tourney, the year of Tyrion's birth, and the information that Joanna was at KL for the tourney and interacted with Aerys for a reason. Is it possible that the dates are such that Tyrion could not be conceived during the tourney? Yes. Would I say it is very likely? No. Even if Tywin was the biological father of Tyrion, it is very likely that Tyrion was conceived while Joanna was at KL in 272 AC, as it does not strike me very likely that Tywin did travel to KL shortly before or after the tourney to Casterly Rock...

[Wmarshal]

I think it is a way too narrow view of the Tyrion-Tywin relationship. Superficially Tyrion and Tywin may share some qualities, but especially the whoring part has to assessed very closely. Tyrion looks for love among whores because his father 'convinced him' that only whores could love him (the effect of the Tysha episode). But that's certainly not the reason why Tywin employs whores. And there is essentially no good reason why the hell Tywin should sleep with Shae in the very night before Tyrion is supposed to be executed at his own command.

Why the hell should Tywin look for comfort or pleasure in the arms of the woman who did the same for the son he hated and despised?

But if Tywin considers Tyrion to be Aerys' son, and if Tywin thinks Aerys has taken Joanna from (emotionally and physically, by conceiving Tyrion with her), then making use of the woman Aerys' son loved actually makes some weird sense in regards to 'payback issues'. 'You took Joanna from me, now I take the woman of the son you forced me to raise as my own before I chop off his head, too. See, you mad corpse? In the end everything that was yours now is mine'.

Not to mention that Tyrion is not really like Tywin at all. Tyrion actually outsmarts his rivals, and uses humor and irony to confuse other people. Tywin does not really understand the concept of humor/irony as a tool of power.

They have also completely different issues. Tywin is traumatized by the whole Tytos thing, and Tyrion by his father (and has to deal with the fact that he is dwarf).

I think you are looking way to into Tywin sleeping with Shae. Tywin barely ever goes into a big stink face about Tyrion, the only time we saw actual emotion from him was during him trying to take CR.

Tywin hardly acts like he hates Tyrion with a burning passion, he tried plenty a time in his sick way to do things to better Tyrion's life.

Tyrion is a smart mouth, and his rumor is no way his political tool, he uses like Tywin, his brain to see what others don't, acting using his own authority instead of waiting for commands, and using ever tool he can to hurt his foes, even arming savages to attack their smallfolk. Sound like a man we know?

You do realize Tytos is Tywin's father right?

[Wmarshal]

Rhaenys,

Aerys accepts Tywin resignation in 281 AC, though. It makes no sense to use that argument there, which is why I think we should not extend Aerys' erratic reverse psychology behavior to 'matters of life and death' (or rather whether he wanted him around or not) - which seems only limited to advice and suggestions Tywin makes, not to whether or not he wants to keep Tywin as his Hand. And we should also keep in mind that Aerys would have had to be pretty warm and nice to Tywin for Tywin to accept that Aerys did not accept his resignation. Aerys could not really have forced Tywin to continue to serve in the office if Tywin was determined to quit... After all, we could assume that Tywin did actually explain why he wanted to resign at this point, most likely remarking 'that it is evident for anyone at court that you no longer value my counsel, my opinion, my work, or my person, or the person of my wife. Thus it is only fitting if you look for a Hand who is more to your liking, etc.' Not sure how Aerys could then react with a 'What are you talking about. You are my best friend. I need you etc.'

Yeah, after denying it before, in this scenario. But he did as he always did, denied him, slighting him.Why would we say that? Aerys has slighted and pissed on Aerys boots for years, he didn't even straight leave during the Jaime thing, but asked to leave. Why do we assume these things? There is also the isssue of all this,Tywin refused in the morning with no mention of time passing and Aerys taking time to reflect on the issue.

We don't know what Tyrion exactly meant when he spoke about his age. It could have been the Trident, the Sack, or - more likely - the formal coronation - which most likely was months after the war was ended, as this would have been a big show where many/all of the great lords would have been called to KL to swear fealty to their new king.

Again, why do we assume this? Unless Robert waited to take the title king till after the coronation, which doesn't seem likely be it he took command inthe deciding the fate of foes in the trident. Robert didn't even have all the great lords on his side, the royal fleet was with Viserys and Rhaella, and Dorne and Iron Islands swore him no fealty.

[Lord Varys]

Wmarshal,

come on, would you sleep with the whore your son loved in the very night before you intended to execute him?

In 272 AC Aerys had not yet slighted Tywin for years. We are still in the early phase of this whole thing. Tywin and Aerys' relationship only went really bad, apparently, during the extended stay in the West, and then following Aerys' remarks after Joanna's untimely death.

As to coronations: We know that the kings official reign began when the High Septon anointed them with the seven oils etc. Considering that Robert was a usurper, we should very much assume that his followers insisted on making a huge political show out of his final official installation as king, to quell any lingering opposition. And the new king should also have forced all the former Targaryen loyalists - that is the Martells, the Tyrells, the Redwynes, various Riverlords, etc. - to swear an oath of fealty to him, accept his pardon personally etc., to ensure that they were openly accepting him as king, bowing to his authority, etc.

More importantly, it seems as if Robert's coronation and his wedding to Cersei occurred at the same time (Yandel states that Robert's first act as king was to take Cersei Lannister to bride - which makes only sense if Jon Arryn and Tywin spoke about this whole thing and arranged it before Robert officially ascended the Iron Throne), and we should assume that Tyrion, as a brother of Cersei, was present there, so I'd assume that Tyrion refers to such a date rather than the murky 'end of the Rebellion' thing.

We also do not know when exactly in 282 AC the war began. We know that Rhaegar began his journey 'which eventually led him into the Riverlands' apparently in the first month of the year, but we don't know how much time that journey took, when exactly Lyanna was captured, when exactly Brandon arrived at KL, how long it took until Rickard came to the capital, how much time passed until Aerys called for Ned's and Robert's heads, too. Only then did the war begin, and this could have been months after Rhaegar began his journey - which could then mean that the battles of the Rebellion only ended in mid-283 AC, or perhaps even later.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to when Tyrion was 10 in 283 AC; He was speaking about Robert killing Rhaegar on the Trident, not Robert taking the throne

“Did you know my true father?”

“Well, I saw him twice or thrice, but I was only ten when Robert killed him, and mine own sire had me hidden underneath a rock. No, I cannot claim I knew Prince Rhaegar. Not as your false father did. Lord Connington was the prince’s dearest friend, was he not?”

With Robb´s birth and conception having occured in 283 AC (as far as textual hints can tell us), Robb's birth takes place somewhere in the 10th month of the year. It is obvious from text that Jon's nameday occurs very closely to Robbs, either shortly before, or shortly after. Jon's birth thus occured in the timeframe of roughly a month before the Sack, until the Sack (Dany born 9 months after Rhaella flees, Rhaella flees about a week to two weeks before the Sack, Jon born 8 to 9 months before Dany). Thus, the war "officially" ended somewhere late in the year (9th or 10th month).

[Lord Varys]

I'd then say that we cannot take Tyrion's memory necessarily at face value. I think we can assume that George had decided Tyrion's year of birth when he wrote that section, but not necessarily the exact dates when Robert killed Rhaegar or Tyrion's exact birthday. Note that Tyrion's nameday is neither mentioned nor celebrated throughout the series (nor the nameday of any other major noble who is not Joffrey or Daenerys).

Thus it is very likely that we won't get the right date by using clues such as this while working under the assumption they are equivalent to real world dates (that is, we can assume that they are more or less correct).

George's original take on this whole numbers and dates thing was to keep it vague so that the readers would essentially shut up about that. That did not really work as planned, but he still seems to keep the overall approach to that.

[Wmarshal]

Wmarshal,

come on, would you sleep with the whore your son loved in the very night before you intended to execute him?

In 272 AC Aerys had not yet slighted Tywin for years. We are still in the early phase of this whole thing. Tywin and Aerys' relationship only went really bad, apparently, during the extended stay in the West, and then following Aerys' remarks after Joanna's untimely death.

As to coronations: We know that the kings official reign began when the High Septon anointed them with the seven oils etc. Considering that Robert was a usurper, we should very much assume that his followers insisted on making a huge political show out of his final official installation as king, to quell any lingering opposition. And the new king should also have forced all the former Targaryen loyalists - that is the Martells, the Tyrells, the Redwynes, various Riverlords, etc. - to swear an oath of fealty to him, accept his pardon personally etc., to ensure that they were openly accepting him as king, bowing to his authority, etc.

More importantly, it seems as if Robert's coronation and his wedding to Cersei occurred at the same time (Yandel states that Robert's first act as king was to take Cersei Lannister to bride - which makes only sense if Jon Arryn and Tywin spoke about this whole thing and arranged it before Robert officially ascended the Iron Throne), and we should assume that Tyrion, as a brother of Cersei, was present there, so I'd assume that Tyrion refers to such a date rather than the murky 'end of the Rebellion' thing.

We also do not know when exactly in 282 AC the war began. We know that Rhaegar began his journey 'which eventually led him into the Riverlands' apparently in the first month of the year, but we don't know how much time that journey took, when exactly Lyanna was captured, when exactly Brandon arrived at KL, how long it took until Rickard came to the capital, how much time passed until Aerys called for Ned's and Robert's heads, too. Only then did the war begin, and this could have been months after Rhaegar began his journey - which could then mean that the battles of the Rebellion only ended in mid-283 AC, or perhaps even later.

I would not be in this scenerio at all, because it is all kinds of messed up.

As to the slights, yeah he has, disagreeing with him at ever turn, labeling problem he caused on Tywin.

No, we know one king's official time starts during his coronation. Kings, such as his sons, went on as king's before crowning.

[Wmarshal]

I'd then say that we cannot take Tyrion's memory necessarily at face value. I think we can assume that George had decided Tyrion's year of birth when he wrote that section, but not necessarily the exact dates when Robert killed Rhaegar or Tyrion's exact birthday. Note that Tyrion's nameday is neither mentioned nor celebrated throughout the series (nor the nameday of any other major noble who is not Joffrey or Daenerys).

Thus it is very likely that we won't get the right date by using clues such as this while working under the assumption they are equivalent to real world dates (that is, we can assume that they are more or less correct).

George's original take on this whole numbers and dates thing was to keep it vague so that the readers would essentially shut up about that. That did not really work as planned, but he still seems to keep the overall approach to that.

Seriously, this is the only account Tyrion gives of his age, are you really going to throw it away because you all the sudden don't seem to trust him knowing how od he was during big events?

[walkingWITHcersei]

Unfortunately the tWoiaF left open the possibility that either could be Aerys children. Don't get to bogged down with specific dates bc we cannot trust Yandel or any Maester to know or give us the proper story. They have their own agenda coupled with the personal bias that every human being has. That and the fact that Pycelle is his source for much of the inner workings of the Tywin/Johanna/Aerys conundrum. The Maesters have shown themselves to not be above fudging history, but Pycelle takes it to a whole new level. He has a serious man crush on Tywin and we have to assume everything he says is clouded by it. Personally I love the twins being Aerys over Tyrion. All of Cersei's inner dialogue that she's the son Tywin always wanted combined with Tywin saying Tyrion is no son of his becomes ironically funny if the twins are Targs. Making Tyrion the son of Aerys would cheapen the story whereas making Tyrion the only true child of Tywins enhances the story. Especially if u take his words literally when Tywin tells Tyrion that he can't prove that Tyrion isn't his. Tywin may have simply been trying to hurt Tyrion but it's possible he actually believed his words. That would make the twins belonging to Aerys that much better.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

George doesn´t strike me as a writer who would have two major characters being secret Targs (Jon and Tyrion), if one is, the other isn´t, or neither, but BOTH having the same shock value reveal, naaaaaaaah

But who am i to think for grrm :)

[mb2518]

Unfortunately the tWoiaF left open the possibility that either could be Aerys children. Don't get to bogged down with specific dates bc we cannot trust Yandel or any Maester to know or give us the proper story. They have their own agenda coupled with the personal bias that every human being has. That and the fact that Pycelle is his source for much of the inner workings of the Tywin/Johanna/Aerys conundrum. The Maesters have shown themselves to not be above fudging history, but Pycelle takes it to a whole new level. He has a serious man crush on Tywin and we have to assume everything he says is clouded by it. Personally I love the twins being Aerys over Tyrion. All of Cersei's inner dialogue that she's the son Tywin always wanted combined with Tywin saying Tyrion is no son of his becomes ironically funny if the twins are Targs. Making Tyrion the son of Aerys would cheapen the story whereas making Tyrion the only true child of Tywins enhances the story. Especially if u take his words literally when Tywin tells Tyrion that he can't prove that Tyrion isn't his. Tywin may have simply been trying to hurt Tyrion but it's possible he actually believed his words. That would make the twins belonging to Aerys that much better.

Unreliable narrator is at play here.

[Bael's Bastard]

George doesn´t strike me as a writer who would have two major characters being secret Targs (Jon and Tyrion), if one is, the other isn´t, or neither, but BOTH having the same shock value reveal, naaaaaaaah

But who am i to think for grrm :)

Some will argue that Tyrion wouldn't be a "secret Targ" because he would be a bastard, but I think that is a ridiculous argument. Targaryen in name? Perhaps not. But secret Targaryen king father all the same. I think it is a possibility, but I don't think it is going to turn out to be true.