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DoctorSwerve

Tyrion is not a secret Targaryen

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Everything about Tywin Lannister the way he presents himself to the realm is on thing and in private an whole nother.

We the readers know Tywin would and probably did eat off his masters plate when wedding Joanna. As we see he wasn't above fucking Tyrion latest whore.

Yet the world books has Pycelle going on record that Tywin isn't that type of man.

Let's examine Tyrion.

His hair is White or platinum blonde, golden blond and streaked with black.

Now Lannisters have blonde hair, nothing strange, white or blonde still could make him a lannister.

But what about the strains of black? What lannister do we know of that has ever had black hair?

Aerys as the product of incest, his grandmother/aunt was a blackwood. They are famous for their black hair. Alys Rivers, Tytos Blackwood to name a few.

So if Tyrion is a lannister where the hell did he get black hair?

Then his eyes, one black and the other green. Okay the Lannisters have green eyes nothing to see here? But wait for it, Jason Lannister swore with the rest of Aegon II council to a blood oath, Aegons party the blacks whom fought against the greens,Tyrions eyes are huge clue.

Couple that with Morrqo words about him in the mist of old,young, bright, dark....dragon hint hint.

Then there is the fact he dreams of Dragons.

Aerion Brightflame, Eggs,Aemon, Daemon II, Daeron the Befuddled and more Targs have dragon dreams and according to Aemon it drove them crazy.

Tyrion has been boning up on and is facinated with Dragons.

Remember his dream on the pole boat? He dreams of himself as Maelys the Monstrous. Another bastard with dragon blood.

There are other little clues laced through the books about Tyrion but the biggest clue was from Tyrion himself when talking with JS. They are talking about JS being a bastard and JS counters with well your mothers trueborn son of lannister, Tyrion strikes back are you sure about that as my mother died birthing me and my father as never been sure.

Tyrion is a bastard.

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Everything about Tywin Lannister the way he presents himself to the realm is on thing and in private an whole nother.

We the readers know Tywin would and probably did eat off his masters plate when wedding Joanna. As we see he wasn't above fucking Tyrion latest whore.

Yet the world books has Pycelle going on record that Tywin isn't that type of man.

Let's examine Tyrion.

His hair is White or platinum blonde, golden blond and streaked with black.

Now Lannisters have blonde hair, nothing strange, white or blonde still could make him a lannister.

But what about the strains of black? What lannister do we know of that has ever had black hair?

Aerys as the product of incest, his grandmother/aunt was a blackwood. They are famous for their black hair. Alys Rivers, Tytos Blackwood to name a few.

So if Tyrion is a lannister where the hell did he get black hair?

Then his eyes, one black and the other green. Okay the Lannisters have green eyes nothing to see here? But wait for it, Jason Lannister swore with the rest of Aegon II council to a blood oath, Aegons party the blacks whom fought against the greens,Tyrions eyes are huge clue.

Couple that with Morrqo words about him in the mist of old,young, bright, dark....dragon hint hint.

Then there is the fact he dreams of Dragons.

Aerion Brightflame, Eggs,Aemon, Daemon II, Daeron the Befuddled and more Targs have dragon dreams and according to Aemon it drove them crazy.

Tyrion has been boning up on and is facinated with Dragons.

Remember his dream on the pole boat? He dreams of himself as Maelys the Monstrous. Another bastard with dragon blood.

There are other little clues laced through the books about Tyrion but the biggest clue was from Tyrion himself when talking with JS. They are talking about JS being a bastard and JS counters with well your mothers trueborn son of lannister, Tyrion strikes back are you sure about that as my mother died birthing me and my father as never been sure.

Tyrion is a bastard.

There is sleeping with someone's side piece(for lack of a better word) and marrying them. The Tywin we see is the one we got, a pride full man, who would murder someone horrible for a slight.

The lannisters are not inbreeds, they have married outward. Alys rivers was not a Blackwood, well at least no one showed she was.

Aegon was the greens, but that is nitpicking, their is the matter his eyes being nothing of lineage and more to do with the Dance of Dragons he has been highlighted to be tipping his hand in steering up.

As to the prophecy, not once does Morrqo say he is anyway one of the dragons. In other prophecies, he is seen as a lion.

As for dragon dreams: they were not, dragon dreams are prophecy like dreams that may or may not have dragons.

Maelys was not a bastard, and his dream looked more actual dream then anything else.

In the end that is the thing: Tywin and Tyrion act as if he never sure who his father is. It is this little nugget that makes the claim: " Martin was just talking like they are in a raising him in son way" when Martin said his father named him all the more empty.

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Wmarshal,



actually, no. It just shows that Tywin would not weep if Aerys died. Not that he would dare (or intended) to cause the death of the king himself. And the risk was not that high that the Darklyns would dare to kill Aerys if the city was stormed, as this clearly would not exactly better their situation...



Come on, everything we know about Tywin suggests that he wants his grandson on the Iron Throne even more badly than Mace Tyrell (and a Lannister-Targaryen grandson at that, not a Lannister-Baratheon from a stupid cadet branch of the royal family). The West is the West, and the Lannisters have always ruled the West. The Realm is the Realm, though. It is a lot bigger and much more prestigious to be King of All instead of Lord of the Seventh Share.



TWoIaF also made it clear that the Lannisters were never really close to the Iron Throne - until Tywin - throughout the history of the Targaryen reign. That apparently really vexed Tywin.



Why Joanna wanted Tywin to stay Hand is obvious. Because he wielded a lot of influence as the de facto ruler of the Realm, and Joanna may have liked that.


The important thing there is that Yandel tells us that Tywin did try to resign, and Aerys did not accept this resignation. Why would he not do that? Aerys no longer liked his childhood friend, thus we should assume that he would have accepted his resignation. More importantly, if Aerys had raped Joanna in the night before, and Aerys had reason to suspect that Tywin knew this or would find out/be told by somebody, he would also have wanted to get rid of him, as he would have known that this could become a 'kingslaying' problem...



Yet Aerys does not accept this resignation. The best explanation for this would be that Aerys was in an unexceptional good mood at this morning, and one reason for that could be that he had just slept with Joanna (again).



More importantly, we know that Joanna ruled Tywin, not the other way around - which makes it also still very likely that Joanna and Aerys still had an affair despite the fact that she was married to Tywin. Joanna may have simply told Tywin to go fuck himself, she was doing what she wanted to, and he did not object.



If Joanna ever had an affair with Aerys, we should also go with the assumption that she did so just because she was attracted to the prince/king but because she had a political agenda of her own.


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TWoIaF also made it clear that the Lannisters were never really close to the Iron Throne - until Tywin - throughout the history of the Targaryen reign. That apparently really vexed Tywin.

Gerold Lannister-Rohanne Webber seemed very close to the IT so much as to effect the election in the Great Council of 233. Tywin being a cupbearer to Egg was the result of that close relationship.

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The sheer amount of assumptions one has to make in order to explain how exactly Tyrion was born from Aerys and Joanna should ring some bells.


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The sheer amount of assumptions one has to make in order to explain how exactly Tyrion was born from Aerys and Joanna should ring some bells.

Um both Aerys and Joanna were in the same place during his conception yr. So how are their a bunch of assumptions and speculation to make true?

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Mithras,



Gerold and Rohanne may have been close to Prince Aegon, personally, not to the Iron Throne (up until 233 AC the guy sitting there was Maekar, not Egg). And afterwards Gerold quickly became a non-player following the death of his younger and then elder son. I agree that the friendship between Egg and Gerold was the direct cause of Tywin being fostered as page at KL, but nothing suggests that Gerold was ever close to the Iron Throne in the sense that he had a hand in ruling the Realm (as a member of the Small Council or the Hand). That only began with Tywin.



The only other Lannister councilman - Ser Tyland - played second fiddle to the Hightowers under Viserys I and Aegon II, and when he became Hand in 131, the Regents were the ones who were actually in charge.



We should also keep in mind that the Lannisters were always powerful as the richest house in Westeros and rulers of the West. That's what gave their voice weight during the Great Councils they attended (although I guess Gerold's talents as an orator added additional weight to his arguments in 233). But it is clear that the Lannisters were never able to trade the 'regional power' they had into political power and influence at court.



And I'm pretty sure the main reason for this was not only that they were unwilling to win the favor of the Targaryens, but also the fact that the Targaryens were smart enough to not marry into a major rich and powerful house after the Hightower debacle caused the Dance.


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Um both Aerys and Joanna were in the same place during his conception yr. So how are their a bunch of assumptions and speculation to make true?

We know that they were in the same place in 272 and Tyrion was born in 273. From this point on, it is all assumptions.

For example, Tyrion might have been born in the December of 273, which puts his conception into the same year.

So, you have to assume that it is not the case.

And so on.

And I'm pretty sure the main reason for this was not only that they were unwilling to win the favor of the Targaryens, but also the fact that the Targaryens were smart enough to not marry into a major rich and powerful house after the Hightower debacle caused the Dance.

I don't think this is the case. Rhaena was married to Garmund Hightower after the Dance. Targaryens married with Arryns after the Dance. They married with minor Houses too but nothing stops ambitious Great Houses to marry the Targ descendants from those minor Houses.

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We don't know the circumstances of Rhaena's marriage to Garmund. It may have been love, it may have been the Crown taking a Hightower as hostage disguised as a marriage (there are hints that Rhaena and Baela lived at court) - the latter would make sense if the marriage was arranged after the end of the Regency.



But more importantly, Rhaena was a Targaryen from a cadet branch. She was Daemon's younger daughter by Laena, not one his children by Rhaenyra. She had not exactly a good claim to the Iron Throne, and thus Garmund had pretty much no chance to become Prince Consort. Not to mention that marrying off daughters is not the same - with Targaryen girls essentially losing their claims more and more with each precedent - as taking brides from other houses.


My point was that Alicent was the last queen of Westeros from a major rich house of the Realm prior to Cersei. Mariah was from Dorne, essentially another country at the time she and Daeron married (and Daeron was not exactly Baelor's heir when he brokered the match).


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Wmarshal,

actually, no. It just shows that Tywin would not weep if Aerys died. Not that he would dare (or intended) to cause the death of the king himself. And the risk was not that high that the Darklyns would dare to kill Aerys if the city was stormed, as this clearly would not exactly better their situation...

Come on, everything we know about Tywin suggests that he wants his grandson on the Iron Throne even more badly than Mace Tyrell (and a Lannister-Targaryen grandson at that, not a Lannister-Baratheon from a stupid cadet branch of the royal family). The West is the West, and the Lannisters have always ruled the West. The Realm is the Realm, though. It is a lot bigger and much more prestigious to be King of All instead of Lord of the Seventh Share.

TWoIaF also made it clear that the Lannisters were never really close to the Iron Throne - until Tywin - throughout the history of the Targaryen reign. That apparently really vexed Tywin.

Why Joanna wanted Tywin to stay Hand is obvious. Because he wielded a lot of influence as the de facto ruler of the Realm, and Joanna may have liked that.

The important thing there is that Yandel tells us that Tywin did try to resign, and Aerys did not accept this resignation. Why would he not do that? Aerys no longer liked his childhood friend, thus we should assume that he would have accepted his resignation. More importantly, if Aerys had raped Joanna in the night before, and Aerys had reason to suspect that Tywin knew this or would find out/be told by somebody, he would also have wanted to get rid of him, as he would have known that this could become a 'kingslaying' problem...

Yet Aerys does not accept this resignation. The best explanation for this would be that Aerys was in an unexceptional good mood at this morning, and one reason for that could be that he had just slept with Joanna (again).

More importantly, we know that Joanna ruled Tywin, not the other way around - which makes it also still very likely that Joanna and Aerys still had an affair despite the fact that she was married to Tywin. Joanna may have simply told Tywin to go fuck himself, she was doing what she wanted to, and he did not object.

If Joanna ever had an affair with Aerys, we should also go with the assumption that she did so just because she was attracted to the prince/king but because she had a political agenda of her own.

he actually bated them to kill him. he even was about to go guns blaze with Aerys in side.

And pride above all else. Be it logic or fear. Come on, he is not that much a fanboy of them, as he murdered the last bunch of them in Westeros. And again, Tywin fully tried and actually did live the king's serves.

That is debatable, the lannisters have had been apart of many historic moments in Targ history.

And would bring it up to him. Yandel made it clear, well at least Pycelle, that something may have remain of their relationship.

Again, your hurting your argument. if anyone is to sleep with in this scenario, it is Tywin. If anyone told Tywin, Aerys would be dead and buried as well as baby Tyrion.

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Come on, we are both not Tywin or Joanna (or Aerys), nor do we know them personally. We have to stick to the text. I try to judge the characters the way the text presents them, you blatantly assert stuff you cannot possibly know (like, what Tywin would do in a scenario X to Tyrion and Aerys). You simply don't have any evidence for that.



I do not say it is confirmed that Tyrion is Aerys' son by Joanna, but I say it is very likely that this is the case. The probability for the scenario that Tyrion is Aerys' is certainly higher after TWoIaF than it was before its publication - just as it became higher after ADwD was published.


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Come on, we are both not Tywin or Joanna (or Aerys), nor do we know them personally. We have to stick to the text. I try to judge the characters the way the text presents them, you blatantly assert stuff you cannot possibly know (like, what Tywin would do in a scenario X to Tyrion and Aerys). You simply don't have any evidence for that.

I do not say it is confirmed that Tyrion is Aerys' son by Joanna, but I say it is very likely that this is the case. The probability for the scenario that Tyrion is Aerys' is certainly higher after TWoIaF than it was before its publication - just as it became higher after ADwD was published.

Are you going to answer why Aerys not Tywin, the man you seem to think Joanna ruled over, would be the one to go to to stop Tywin for resigning? As to knowing what would Tywin do: that has way more to do he did far worse to Aerys and the Targs for far less.

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Well, I did not say that Tywin was Joanna's puppet in every regard. The scenario I imagine - only one of many options, the idea that Aerys simply called Joanna to his chambers is also a likely scenario - is that Tywin made up his mind to resign the next day because Aerys had insulted Joanna, and told her so. Seeing that Tywin had made up his mind and was not willing to stay on as Hand despite Joanna's pleas, she decided to convince Aerys to not accept Tywin's resignation - perhaps after Tywin went to bed, or they quarreled over the whole thing, and Tywin retired whereas Joanna stayed for the feast.



I know that Tywin eventually ordered the murder of Rhaegar's children, and possibly Aerys, during the Sack, but that's at the end of the War of the Usurper which essentially was lost at the Trident. Nothing really suggests that Tywin wanted Robert to win that war, or intended to topple the Targaryen dynasty. He did not plot against while he was Hand. He merely suggested that they were at a standstill in the Duskendale thing and decided that it may have been time to resolve the thing one way or the other. It is not that Tywin jumped on the chance to get Aerys killed - if that was the case he would ordered the storm as soon as Aerys was captured, or rejected Barristan Selmy's idea to save the king all by himself.



Kevan made it pretty clear in ADwD that Tywin was, apparently, willing to save Aerys' ass, had the latter apologized for his behavior and recalled him as Hand - I guess, releasing Jaime from his vows would also have come up after Tywin had won the war for the Targaryens.


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Well, I did not say that Tywin was Joanna's puppet in every regard. The scenario I imagine - only one of many options, the idea that Aerys simply called Joanna to his chambers is also a likely scenario - is that Tywin made up his mind to resign the next day because Aerys had insulted Joanna, and told her so. Seeing that Tywin had made up his mind and was not willing to stay on as Hand despite Joanna's pleas, she decided to convince Aerys to not accept Tywin's resignation - perhaps after Tywin went to bed, or they quarreled over the whole thing, and Tywin retired whereas Joanna stayed for the feast.

I know that Tywin eventually ordered the murder of Rhaegar's children, and possibly Aerys, during the Sack, but that's at the end of the War of the Usurper which essentially was lost at the Trident. Nothing really suggests that Tywin wanted Robert to win that war, or intended to topple the Targaryen dynasty. He did not plot against while he was Hand. He merely suggested that they were at a standstill in the Duskendale thing and decided that it may have been time to resolve the thing one way or the other. It is not that Tywin jumped on the chance to get Aerys killed - if that was the case he would ordered the storm as soon as Aerys was captured, or rejected Barristan Selmy's idea to save the king all by himself.

Kevan made it pretty clear in ADwD that Tywin was, apparently, willing to save Aerys' ass, had the latter apologized for his behavior and recalled him as Hand - I guess, releasing Jaime from his vows would also have come up after Tywin had won the war for the Targaryens.

It is a good idea, I will not deny with the information we have it is impossible. I just don't see Joanna up and about bedding Tywin to keep a job that largely kept them apart.

As to Tywin's actions: He started marching to KL before the battle of the trident even ended, else he would not have beat Ned and avoided meeting both hosts.

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Well, you should not keep up the presupposition that Joanna was (very much) in love with Tywin. Tywin loved her very much but whether she actually returned those feelings has to be discovered/conclusively proven. Considering that I don't dismiss the rumors about Joanna's affair with Aerys out of hand, I doubt that she was really in love with him. If that was the case, then it would make very much sense for her to want Tywin to continue to serve as Hand.



In fact, come to think of it, if she was actually in love with Aerys, she may have arranged Tywin's appointment as Hand knowing that 'her precious Aerys' (that's me making up stuff, don't quote that anywhere) needed a competent manager like Tywin for his great reign. Any woman close to Aerys would have known that he had certain mental issues.


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There is nothing in TWOIAF that indicates Aerys and Joanna were in the same place around the time Tyrion was conceived. We neither know when Tyrion was conceived nor how many months Joanna carried him before birthing him. All we know is that Tyrion was born some time in 273, and Joanna was in KL some time in 272. People are filling the rest in based on their biases. These two things things could be closer to 6-9 months apart, closer to 24 months apart, or somewhere in between.


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There is nothing in TWOIAF that indicates Aerys and Joanna were in the same place around the time Tyrion was conceived. We neither know when Tyrion was conceived nor how many months Joanna carried him before birthing him. All we know is that Tyrion was born some time in 273, and Joanna was in KL some time in 272. People are filling the rest in based on their biases. These two things things could be closer to 6-9 months apart, closer to 24 months apart, or somewhere in between.

Conspiracy theorist have done more with less your point

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Bael's Bard,



actually, we can pinpoint the date of the anniversary tourney pretty well, with one presupposition, which is that anniversary tourneys and feast were staged at or near the date of the coronation/ascension.



Now, we know that Aegon V died at an unspecified date in 259 AC - I guess Jaehaerys II was crowned about a month later, or so, as they would first have to travel from Summerhall to KL. We also know that the Ninepenny Kings crisis broke out immediately after Summerhall, yet it is confirmed that Lord Ormund Baratheon, the new Hand, did only land with the Targaryen armies on the Stepstones in 260 AC, suggesting that Summerhall took place in the latter half of 259 AC (say, in September to November or so - I'd go with October).



We also know that Jaehaerys II sat 'scarce three years' on the Iron Throne, suggesting to me that he died either in the same month as his father in 259, or the month before.



If the tenth anniversary of Aerys' ascension was more or less ten years after his coronation, then it would have been roughly in the second half of 262 AC, perhaps even in the last month of that year, depending when exactly Aerys II was crowned (I imagine very shortly after his father's death, as there is no reason to believe that Aerys was not at court at that time).



Thus we cannot really say that the window is as open as you suggests, although the unknown is clearly Tyrion's exact birth date. Nothing suggests that Tyrion was born early, as he survived. But considering George's usual way with numbers and dates what we got in TWoIaF is effectively closer to a confirmation than a dismissal of that particular theory...


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All we really know is Joanna was in KL some time in 272 and Tyrion was born some time in 273. We can speculate this or that, but that is all it is (not knocking speculation, speculation is fun, just calling it what it is).



As far as the counting of years of kings, we don't really know exactly how it works in Westeros.



Maybe the rest of the last year of the old king is counted as the first year of the new king, and the new king's second year begins with the coming of the new year (or whenever)? Maybe the rest of the last year of the old king is counted as an accession year of the new king, and the new king's first year doesn't begin until the coming of the new year (or whenever)?



I haven't had a chance to examine all of the lengths of the reigns of the kings and the years they became king in TWOIAF, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't consistently follow one way or another other, as I am sure he just came up with his desired length of reigns long ago without having worked all of that out.



I would of course agree that he left the possibility open, and must have known people would speculate. But without knowing the month(s) or part of the year in 272 that Aerys and Joanna were in the same city, and the month or part of the year in 273 that Tyrion was born, the two things could just as easily be too far apart or too close for A+J=T to be possible, let alone actual.


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