Gaston de Foix Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 We know there were once around 200 Valyrian steel swords in Westeros (Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 32, Tyrion). Tyrion's thoughts are contradicted by the number of blades we have seen in the books - less than 15 all together). Of course not every blade will be named in the books, but it's interesting to contrast Tyrion's impression with the number we actually see. Also, if there were 200 blades, the Targaryens and Lannisters (as well as Tyrells and Baratheons, and Arryns) might well have succeeded in acquiring one of these blades at some point. We know from the World Book that several storied blades: Vigilance (Hightower), Lamentation (Royce) and Orphan-Maker (Roxton) have disappeared in history. Also missing are the two Targaryen blades, as well as Brightroar. We also know there are rumours of other blades, such as the Just Maid (belonging to Tarth). This made me think that some organisation or institution which knew there would be a desperate need for these blades has secretly stolen or amassed them (either to destroy the Seven Kingdoms in the War for the Dawn, or to reveal the blades at a time of desperate need). I'm thinking the Green Men on their isle might have these blades. Alternatively, there might be those who are working to bring back the return of the Others who have removed the blades, to make conquest easier (crackpot I know). Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The only group of people I could see collecting Valyrian steal is the citadel, but I think it's more likely the blades that go missing in Westeros simply pop up in Essos/. Take Orphan Maker for example, I'm pretty sure that's the one we see in TPATQ that kills the dragonseen at Tumbleton who is the rider of the biggest dragon still alive. The guy was surrounded by sellswords who had joined him, so 1 of them must have wound up with the sword. The easiest way for him to sell it/ a group of them to sell it would be to hop on a ship to Volantis, and I don't think a sellsword is going to keep a Valyrian steal sword when they could retire off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 The only group of people I could see collecting Valyrian steal is the citadel, but I think it's more likely the blades that go missing in Westeros simply pop up in Essos/. Take Orphan Maker for example, I'm pretty sure that's the one we see in TPATQ that kills the dragonseen at Tumbleton who is the rider of the biggest dragon still alive. The guy was surrounded by sellswords who had joined him, so 1 of them must have wound up with the sword. The easiest way for him to sell it/ a group of them to sell it would be to hop on a ship to Volantis, and I don't think a sellsword is going to keep a Valyrian steal sword when they could retire off it. There's a limit to that logic though: if there's a market for Valyrian steel swords then surely Westerosi Lords (including Tywin Lannister) could have bought one by now. Instead we have Kevan Lannister disappearing in search of Brightroar and never returning. The problem with the Citadel amassing these swords is (i) the Citadel survives under the patronage of the Hightowers - if they had the Hightower blade, they might have sought to return it and (ii) why would the Citadel be interested in Valyrian steel particularly? Will people at least agree with me that there is something suspicious about the disappearance of this many Valyrian steel swords? Not just the Targ swords, but also the three I mentioned? Apparently 200 swords but only one house in each of the seven Kingdoms has a sword, except weirdly, the Iron Islands. (i) Longclaw - Mormont (North) (ii) Lady Forlorn (Vale of Arryn) (iii) Heartsbane (the Reach) (iv) Red Rain (Iron Islands) (v) Nightfall (Iron Islands) (vi) Oathkeeper (Brienne) (vii) Widow's Wail (Tommen) Even the Baratheons, close associates of the Targs, and the Velaryons don't have an ancestral sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 We don't know that the Hightowers sword is lost, but the maesters collect all magical things it seems just to keep them from other people. Valyrian steal is magical along with other things. They also must have some sort of cache of Valyrian steal to make the chain links from. Tywin couldn't buy 1 in westeros, and he did in fact eventually luck into a valyrian steal sword, ICE. Had a random sellsword gotten ICE, he would have tried to sell it to someone, so he might go to Tywin in that instance or he might skip town. Kevan Lannister didn't disappear looking for Brightroar, Gerrion Lannister disappeared trying to get to Valyria itself, where Brightroar was lost, he didn't just try to buy 1 in Essos. If the Maesters say there are at least 2000 swords but only a max of 200 in Westeros than they have to be much more common in Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarlightDancer Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I assumed on my first read through (yes I know what that makes you and me) that there were other Valyrian swords just no mentioned, for all we know 4 or 6 stark banner men have them, and 5 or 6 storm lord and riverland bannermen, and you get the idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snark of Winterfell Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I would imagine that there are more swords in Westerns, it is certainly possible and plausible for a group to be collecting them, both the Citadel and the Green Men are the most likely groups if that is the case that the swords were being hoarded. Obviously some would might wind up in Essos, but there is certainly a market for them in Westeros, I would imagine every single lord would want one, considering lords have gone missing searching for their ancestral sword and Tywin reforging Ice rather than returning it after the beheading of Ned. Twin would have paid anything for a VS sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 We know there were once around 200 Valyrian steel swords in Westeros (Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 32, Tyrion). Tyrion's thoughts are contradicted by the number of blades we have seen in the books - less than 15 all together). The way to reconcile Tyrion's statement in ASOS and the reduced number of Valyrian steel swords seen in the books is interpreting "Valyrian steel blades" as including any kind of blade. So there would be about 169 daggers, Celtigar's axe, and some 30 proper swords. That figure could justify why there are Great Houses without sword, even when (like the Lannisters) they are actively trying to get one. We know from the World Book that several storied blades: Vigilance (Hightower), Lamentation (Royce) and Orphan-Maker (Roxton) have disappeared in history. Also missing are the two Targaryen blades, as well as Brightroar. We also know there are rumours of other blades, such as the Just Maid (belonging to Tarth). Vigilance and Orphan-Maker haven't "disappeared" from history. It's just that they haven't been seen them so far in the main narrative of ASOIAF. And it's entirely justified: Leyton Hightower is an old man who doesn't move from his tower, and House Roxton is yet to make an appearance in the books. But that's no reason to assume that their swords are not safely stored in their keeps. Will people at least agree with me that there is something suspicious about the disappearance of this many Valyrian steel swords? Not just the Targ swords, but also the three I mentioned? Apparently 200 swords but only one house in each of the seven Kingdoms has a sword, except weirdly, the Iron Islands. (i) Longclaw - Mormont (North) (ii) Lady Forlorn (Vale of Arryn) (iii) Heartsbane (the Reach) (iv) Red Rain (Iron Islands) (v) Nightfall (Iron Islands) (vi) Oathkeeper (Brienne) (vii) Widow's Wail (Tommen) Even the Baratheons, close associates of the Targs, and the Velaryons don't have an ancestral sword. I don't agree with you. :P As said, I don't buy your examples of "disappearing swords". And I don't find weird at all that the Iron Islands have many swords. They are thieves and pirates, and during the raids of the Red Kraken and Dagon Greyjoy they had plenty of opportunites to steal some. It's logical that the Baratheons do not have a Valyrian Steel Sword, since they are a very young house. And some other important old houses that could perfectly own a VSS that we haven't seen so far because the story has not broght us there: Velaryons, Arryns, Martells, Rowans, Yronwoods, Mallister, Swann... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Actually, I have a wild theory that Tobho Mott recovered some VS swords that were lost during the storming of the Dragonpit (like Lamentation). Moreover, he hid Ice and used those materials to create Oathkeeper and WW. Maybe he didnot do anything to the blades; he just made new Lannister hilts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 We don't know when this Inventories book Yandel cites in TWoIaF was written. It names 227 Valyrian weapons - if this book was written before the Dance, it would not include the correct present-day count. And not only during the Dance Valyrian steel weapons were lost. Blackfyre and Dark Sister disappeared later, and they may have been a lot of other weapons which disappeared during other wars (Blackfyre rebellions, smaller rebellions, War of the Ninepenny Kings, Robert's Rebellion, perhaps even Balon's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings - if ships sink, the stuff on board is usually lost, after all...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 There was the mention of a person cutting a dragon's wing with a VS sword during the storming of the Dragonpit. In addition, some whores have been using the ruins of Dragonpit to entertain their patrons, and one of them fell through a patch of rotted floor into a cellar and there were 300 jars of wildfire. Note that Dragonpit is a ruin and its gates were barred for more than a century. It is obvious that the alchemists of Aerys II didnot find any trouble getting in. If whores can go inside, surely other people can too. If someone is looking for something special in the ruins and if he/she knows what he/she is looking for, it is likely to find some interesting stuff there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The hairy bear, Orphan Maker is almost certainly not looked up safe in house Roxtons castle, it was used at the 2nd battle of Tumbleton by a man who was cut down by a group of sellswords, there is no reason to believe those sellswords would bring the sword back to house Roxton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Mithras, you should not assume that the Dragonpit fell out of use immediately after the Dance. After all, the Targaryens still had dragons by that point, and continued to do so until the year 153 AC. Thus it is not unlikely that the Dragonpit only became a ruin without any purpose whatsoever some time after the reign of Aegon III. Not to mention that we should also assume that the people claiming Valyrian steel swords during the Storming of the Dragonpit (or during the other riots) would have kept them and taken them out of the city. If some weapons remained in the ruins of the pit after the storming, they would have remained there not for long. Aegon II and later Aegon III most certainly would have searched those ruins and cleaned them up. Dark Sister was also found some years after the Dance, and returned to the Targaryens (along with the skull of Vhagar). Thus, I think, the assumption that Tobho Mott - or any character throughout the main series - simply would have no chance whatsoever to find anything among those ruins (even if we assume he would search them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 After the Dance, Targaryens had small dragons which kept getting smaller and smaller. Dragonpit was destroyed during the storming. We also know that the Realm was torn apart due to the Dance. So, would any sane regent at such hard times spend so much gold to rebuild such a massive structure which apparently had no use? I think not. Remaning Targaryen dragons could do just fine in Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I assumed on my first read through (yes I know what that makes you and me) that there were other Valyrian swords just no mentioned, for all we know 4 or 6 stark banner men have them, and 5 or 6 storm lord and riverland bannermen, and you get the idea... I'm pretty sure this is the explanation. We know Tywin made offers to some "impoverished" house to buy theirs. Even the Baratheons, close associates of the Targs, and the Velaryons don't have an ancestral sword. If the Baratheons had one it would have gone down with Steffon. Do we know the Velaryons don't have one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The dome of the Dragonpit was clearly not repaired by the regents, but Rhaena Targaryen seemed to have lived in KL during her half-brother's reign, at least at the start. Where would Morning reside when not in the Dragonpit? Surely not with Aegon III in the Red Keep, as he most likely would not have been willing to tolerate a dragon in his presence. Just because the dome was destroyed does not mean that many/all of the dragon-housing facilities in the pit were destroyed (or not repaired). I agree that the whole dragon-hatching thing continued to occur on Dragonstone, though. But anyway, the important point is that somebody - the regents, Aegon III, Daeron I etc. - would have searched the ruins of the Dragonpit long before anyone during the reign of Aerys II or Robert would have done it. And any valuables like Valyrian steel swords would have remained with the scavengers who took them from the slain in the very night of the riots, or the morning thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Aryagonnakill2, Fair enough. I was thinking that, as the killer of Hugh the Hammer, Jon Roxton would be respected by both greens and blacks, and they wouldn't let a lowborn sellsword keep his priced sword. But perhaps it's more likely that the sellswords fled from Tumbleton and sold it in the free cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon's Daughter Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I suspect it is simply that we have not heard of all the lower houses that have swords. I expect that houses that had close ties to the Targaryens pre-conquest had at least one sword each, for example. I also think it is reasonable that houses in areas we have not seen as closely (ex. Dorne) have a fair number of swords there as well. It sounds like Tywin tried to get them from many families, but we just don't know who those Valyrian-sword-wielding families are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Annaly Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The perhaps two hundred blades may not mean two hundred swords but also include daggers, dirks and other sharp implements. We know that Robert Baratheon had a valyrian dagger that was used in the attempted assassination of Bran. And the (battle?) axe owned by House Celtigar I would say that there are many blades and swords around but that have not gotten a mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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