R + L = J v. 127

[MtnLion]

@Rum Ham How much time passes between a king's death and his heir becoming king? How much time passed between Robert's death and Stannis becoming king? Yes, it is rhetorical, there is no time. There is a formal ceremony sometimes performed, but it has nothing really to do with how Stannis insists that he is the king, does it? So, when you insist that Viserys is Aerys' heir, then when Aerys is killed, Viserys is the king, coronation ceremony or no.

Back to the source. I do not believe Yandel's story. He has a reason to create the misdirection, and even goes a bit further by suggesting that Aerys killed Aegon. Pycelle is a Lannister lackey. Yandel would get his information from Pycelle. Pycelle is not going to betray Tywin by exposing his orders to have Elia and the children killed. If Aegon was the heir, Tywin would be guilty of regicide, too.

[sj4iy]

I couldn't figure out 7 either... Not Rhaego? Rhaegars kids are counted, so why not Danys?

Or is it Aegon, Rhaenys, Jon, Rhaego, Viserion, Rhaegel and Drogon?

I think it's Rhaego. He's Rhaegar's blood and he's known about.

Of course, it all depends on whether you want to include Rhaegar or not. I think there is more than one possible interpretation right now.

[JonSnow4President]

I think it's Rhaego. He's Rhaegar's blood and he's known about.

Of course, it all depends on whether you want to include Rhaegar or not. I think there is more than one possible interpretation right now.

Of course, the problem with Rhaego is it's debatable if he even should be counted, even if you were to include any Dany children, because he never was actually born.

[imaginepageant]

Very nice! You're finding a lot of interesting stuff!

And I'm not even looking for it. Who would've thought there'd be two instances of R+L=J evidence in Theon's first three chapters? This stuff is literary ghost grass, man.

[RumHam]

@Rum Ham How much time passes between a king's death and his heir becoming king? How much time passed between Robert's death and Stannis becoming king? Yes, it is rhetorical, there is no time. There is a formal ceremony sometimes performed, but it has nothing really to do with how Stannis insists that he is the king, does it? So, when you insist that Viserys is Aerys' heir, then when Aerys is killed, Viserys is the king, coronation ceremony or no.

They have to wait until the next full moon, or until the corpse of the dead king shows maggots. Whichever comes first. Unless it's a leap year.

No but seriously it's not a matter of the passage of time, it's about the political situation. How long did little Maegor have to wait before he became king? He was next in line after all. But when Maekar died people didn't just immediately bow to king Maegor II. If Maegor had had a power-base and say control of King's Landing then maybe they would have. But you don't seen any kingsguard rushing off to defend him as the rightful king because he was next in line. They don't get to decide who is king. We've even seen that when someone is explicitly named as heir, someone else can usurp the throne and people, Kingsguard included, will go along with it.

It's a similar situation with Viserys, whether he becomes the "rightful king" after Aerys dies or after Aegon does.* Yes he's crowned and thinks of himself as Viserys III, but it'd be crazy to say that he was king of the Seven Kingdoms at that point. If the people you're "ruling" doing recognize you as their king, you're no king at all. You may have a valid claim, and you may even call yourself the "rightful king," but you're still not the king. Hence "Aegon VI" and "Viserys III" not being listed as a Targaryen king in the appendices or anywhere else.

*Unless of course Jon was ahead of Viserys in the succession, in which case we find ourselves in a similar situation only with Jon as the rightful king. But Jon is still not the actual king. He's a baby in a tower that nobody even knows exists. Whether the king is decided by great council or a war or even treachery like with Joffrey, the Kingsguard don't get to say "nah we're not feeling it. I'm gonna protect this guy it shoulda been him."

Also did you just stop reading my post after you disagreed with the first sentence? Should I just assume you have no response to my other points?

[sj4iy]

Of course, the problem with Rhaego is it's debatable if he even should be counted, even if you were to include any Dany children, because he never was actually born.

Well, he was actually born. He just wasn't alive.

[BearQueen87]

Of course, the problem with Rhaego is it's debatable if he even should be counted, even if you were to include any Dany children, because he never was actually born.

Well, he was actually born. He just wasn't alive.

I think I would say "he wasn't alive when born." Rhaego was definitely alive (in the broad sense of he was moving and kicking and exhibiting those sings of life to potentially avoid a debate we probably don't want to have) pre-birth. He was kicking right up until Dany goes into the tent.

[sj4iy]

I think I would say "he wasn't alive when born." Rhaego was definitely alive (in the broad sense of he was moving and kicking and exhibiting those sings of life to potentially avoid a debate we probably don't want to have) pre-birth. He was kicking right up until Dany goes into the tent.

Or, to phrase it simply: He was stillborn.

[BearQueen87]

Agreed that leaving Rhaego off might be better.

So, in the end, I think I also agree with Consiglere's list of seven:

1. Aerys
   
2. Rhaella
   
3. Viserys
   
4. Rhaenys
   
5. Aegon
   
6. Daenerys
   
7. Jon
   

I know there was discussion up thread about pulling Dany off, but I don't think we can do that and 1) keep Viserys on there and 2) it wouldn't make sense if we 're doing this by "Rhaegar's blood" since he and Dany share the same blood--Aerys and Rhaella.

So if we keep Rhaegar out, but go by his blood then that list makes more sense than any other.

Aerys and Rhaella gave R, V and D their blood.

Aegon and Rhaenys and Jon have R's blood

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Considering all the alternatives, I think we're starting to stretch too much the theory of the rubies. Mostly explanations we've had so far fall naturally.

Anyway, crackpot:

Could it be that whoever told Brandon wanted in fact to stop Rhaegar from going with Lyanna because this person (or these people) were aware of Rhaegar trying to fulfil a prophecy? someone with access to magic and someone who disliked the Dragons (both real dragons and figurative dragons)? Like... the Maesters?

At the end, they won because the Targaryens finally disappeared from Westeros and a more "mundane" Dynasty was in charge. Nothing magical about it.

Discuss.

Or not, I'm not your teacher.

[Ygrain]

Could it be that whoever told Brandon wanted in fact to stop Rhaegar from going with Lyanna because this person (or these people) were aware of Rhaegar trying to fulfil a prophecy? someone with access to magic and someone who disliked the Dragons (both real dragons and figurative dragons)? Like... the Maesters?

At the end, they won because the Targaryens finally disappeared from Westeros and a more "mundane" Dynasty was in charge. Nothing magical about it.

Why not? Pycelle is high on the list of suspects who might have messed with some information flow. Also, there is that weird remark by Tyrion, asking how far Pycelle's betrayals went and naming Rhaegar as one of those whom Pycelle betrayed.

Discuss.

Or not, I'm not your teacher.

Oh, the good ol' uni days... :-)

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor!

[Ser Yolo Swaggins]

I thought it was really simple. The Rubies represent Rhaegars Blood. Each Ruby found represents one of his direct blood relatives. That are widely known about. (Hardly anyone knows about all the stillbirths and what not, hence why they aren't mentioned once in the main series)

Aerys - Father - 1

Rhaella - Mother - 2

Viserys - Brother - 3

Daenerys - Sister - 4

Rhaenys - Daughter - 5

Aegon - Son - 6

6 have been found, we are waiting on the 7th.

Jon - Son - 7

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why not? Pycelle is high on the list of suspects who might have messed with some information flow. Also, there is that weird remark by Tyrion, asking how far Pycelle's betrayals went and naming Rhaegar as one of those whom Pycelle betrayed.

Yep. I think there is a conspiracy happening and the Maesters are involved, even in the Doom. That doesn't mean every other Maester is part of this, but the highest ranks are, and many maesters work for this plan without even knowing.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And I'm not even looking for it. Who would've thought there'd be two instances of R+L=J evidence in Theon's first three chapters? This stuff is literary ghost grass, man.

That is an apt analogy for the way RLJ over-interpretation occurs. It is the product of an invasive theory that overwhelms native, and more natural, readings of the text. Some attribute its anomalous glow to the irrepressible spirit of the damned. Unless Martin eventually finishes these books, such over-interpretation will grow to cover the entire world of ASOIAF fandom, and all true reading will come to an end. :blink:

[Ser Leftwich]

Because X+Y=J is a more natural reading of the text(s).

(Arguably all one needs is in book 1).

First time reading the books everyone comes up with:

1) Jon's mother does not matter.

2) Jon's mother matters and Ned is suspicious/guilty/weird about it..... which only leads to R+L=J.

Any other 'natural reading' is spun from multiple re-readings and actively countering R+L=J, and therefore unnatural.

[Disputatious]

Hodor!

Jojen!

[Black Crow]

@Rum Ham How much time passes between a king's death and his heir becoming king? How much time passed between Robert's death and Stannis becoming king? Yes, it is rhetorical, there is no time. There is a formal ceremony sometimes performed, but it has nothing really to do with how Stannis insists that he is the king, does it?

As the French used to put it when they had a monarchy:

Le roi est mort, vive le roi!

The king is dead, long live the king!

[markg171]

I thought it was really simple. The Rubies represent Rhaegars Blood. Each Ruby found represents one of his direct blood relatives. That are widely known about. (Hardly anyone knows about all the stillbirths and what not, hence why they aren't mentioned once in the main series)

Aerys - Father - 1

Rhaella - Mother - 2

Viserys - Brother - 3

Daenerys - Sister - 4

Rhaenys - Daughter - 5

Aegon - Son - 6

6 have been found, we are waiting on the 7th.

Jon - Son - 7

Except Rhaegar had like 3 brothers who lived to be 1

[The Twinslayer]

That is an apt analogy for the way RLJ over-interpretation occurs. It is the product of an invasive theory that overwhelms native, and more natural, readings of the text. Some attribute its anomalous glow to the irrepressible spirit of the damned. Unless Martin eventually finishes these books, such over-interpretation will grow to cover the entire world of ASOIAF fandom, and all true reading will come to an end. :blink:

That is why I pointed out in the last thread Theon's statement to the boat captain's daughter that her father should be happy about her relationship with Theon because not every man has the honor of raising a king's bastard. If you read every line of the books through the R+L=J lens, you'll conclude that Theon is really saying that Ned should have been honored (rather than dishonored) due to having to raise Jon.

I have now read the Ruby theory, too, and it seems like much of the same. If you start with the assumption that any reference to Rhaegar must also be about Jon, you can really struggle to find some way to interpret those rubies as a reference to Jon. But if that is what GRRM intended he would not have given Rhaella three new live births in the world book.