R + L = J v. 127

[markg171]

I couldn't figure out 7 either... Not Rhaego? Rhaegars kids are counted, so why not Danys?

Or is it Aegon, Rhaenys, Jon, Rhaego, Viserion, Rhaegel and Drogon?

Rhaego was a stillbirth. Can't count Rhaego without counting the other stillbirths in the family.

Rhaego could count. He was alive for the entire book until the tent incident. There are numerous incidents of him kicking and moving.

The original thread was waaaaaaaay pre-World Book before we learned about the miscarriages. However, we don't really know a lot about them, IIRC? Were they moving and kicking like Rhaego?

Rhaegar and his siblings count since TPTWP comes from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Aerys and Rhaella may count...like I said we've had some thoughts on different way to interpret it.

You don't need to include the miscarriages though. I did, but Daeron, Aegon, and Jaeherys were all born and lived for a time before dying young. In which case, you still have way too many Targaryen's for the rubies to represent them.

[F The King]

It would give him Martell and Stark support, and certain lords would love it to be sure. Aegon was well loved and he was polygamous, and Maegor's marriages were quite different, looking at the circumstances of the Black Brides.

Why in the world would the Martells be supportive of it?

And yes, you're right, but that was back when Targs could get away with such things. It had always been a sin, but once the Targs lost the dragons, they weren't able to get away with it. GRRM said so himself, "Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Why in the world would the Martells be supportive of it?

And yes, you're right, but that was back when Targs could get away with such things. It had always been a sin, but once the Targs lost the dragons, they weren't able to get away with it. GRRM said so himself, "Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."

Because the Martells are Doran and Oberyn, and Elia (knowing the prophecy etc would tell them).

Rhaego was a stillbirth. Can't count Rhaego without counting the other stillbirths in the family.

You don't need to include the miscarriages though. I did, but Daeron, Aegon, and Jaeherys were all born and lived for a time before dying young. In which case, you still have way too many Targaryen's for the rubies to represent them.

Ok so not Rhaego, bummer, Danys next kid then?

Or Rhaegar, Shaena, Daeron, Jahaerys, Aegon, Viserys and Daenerys? The named Aerys/Rhaella kids?

Or Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Aegon, Elia, Jon and Danys next kid, (by Jon?).

[Kingmonkey]

After reading the World Book, I think Consiglerie's version is correct. So it's:

1. Aerys

Rhaella

Viserys

Rhaenys

Aegon

Daenerys

Jon

Rhaegar's rubies = Rhaegar's blood = Rhaegar's family, which is why he is not included.

Alternatively, Rhaegar's blood includes Rhaegar (which does kind of make sense), but doesn't include Dany. I'm not sure the timeline is clear on this, but Jaime recalls Rhaella looking like a beast had savaged her the morning she left for Dragonstone, so Dany might not have been conceived before Rhaegar died.

Edit: A reason for liking this interpretation is the arrival of the rubies on the Quiet Isle. If we replace Dany with Rhaegar in this list, the six that have washed up on the Quiet Isle, which sounds like a mythic island of the dead if ever I heard one, are all dead, only the 7th remains unfound (alive).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If the implication is that Jon will be King, then it goes like:

1. Aerys (the King)

2. Rhaegar (the Crown Prince who was going to remove his father)

3. Aegon (who is "returning" now)

4. Viserys (the Beggar King)

5. Dany

6. Rhaego (Robert feared he would return with an army ETA: Drogo wanted to crown him)

7. Jon, the final King.

[markg171]

Alternatively, Rhaegar's blood includes Rhaegar (which does kind of make sense), but doesn't include Dany. I'm not sure the timeline is clear on this, but Jaime recalls Rhaella looking like a beast had savaged her the morning she left for Dragonstone, so Dany might not have been conceived before Rhaegar died.

Edit: A reason for liking this interpretation is the arrival of the rubies on the Quiet Isle. If we replace Dany with Rhaegar in this list, the six that have washed up on the Quiet Isle, which sounds like a mythic island of the dead if ever I heard one, are all dead, only the 7th remains unfound (alive).

This actually works if you consider the known named and birthed (i.e not Shaena or Rhaego who were stillborns) Targaryens from the line of Aerys and Rhaella who are dead.

1. Rhaegar - dead

2. Daeron - dead

3. Aegon - dead

4. Jaeherys - dead

5. Rhaenys - dead

6. Viserys - dead

[Ladywhiskers]

It doesn't make sense to me that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna at the Tower. He randomly brought back polygamy? Why? If he won at the Battle of the Trident and Robert's rebellion was put down, it seemed he would have become King very shortly after. It would be tricky to be King and have two wives, since the people of Westeros were very seriously against it by that point.

Because the Dragon must have 3 heads, as he told Elia. "There must be another." He was saying this to Elia after she gave birth. So, yes, Either he divorced Elia, which explains why she had no King's Guards, or he simply reinstated polygamy, because there's no other reason for THREE King's Guards at the Tower of Joy, at a time like that.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

This actually works if you consider the known named and birthed (i.e not Shaena or Rhaego who were stillborns) Targaryens from the line of Aerys and Rhaella who are dead.

1. Rhaegar - dead

2. Daeron - dead

3. Aegon - dead

4. Jaeherys - dead

5. Rhaenys - dead

6. Viserys - dead

What of fAegon? Either he is real and not a Blackfyre or Dany dies. And he doesn't seem real.

[markg171]

What of fAegon? Either he is real and not a Blackfyre or Dany dies. And he doesn't seem real.

Personally I'm assuming that both are real, but only one will make it to the end of the series. In which case, you get the 7th death of the descendants of the Aerys and Rhaella, and then the last one left standing is TPTWP.

[markg171]

Because the Dragon must have 3 heads, as he told Elia. "There must be another." He was saying this to Elia after she gave birth. So, yes, Either he divorced Elia, which explains why she had no King's Guards, or he simply reinstated polygamy, because there's no other reason for THREE King's Guards at the Tower of Joy, at a time like that.

Jaime shows no indication though that Rhaegar and Elia divorced, and he is known to have talked to Rhaegar when Rhaegar came back from the TOJ.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

In Jaime's dream, Rhaegar still was married to Elia when they died.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

If this wasn't so similar to the Daemon Blackfyre being pierced by seven arrows, I'd be going with this theory.

Seven Kingdoms->Six Kingdoms.

Seven rubies fall, but only one remains unfound. So there will be six new kingdoms by the end, since Rhaegar was a Targ and symbolic of the 7K.

North, Vale and Rivers, Dorne, Westerlands, Stormlands and Reach, Iron Islands.

Jon, Sansa and Robin, Arianne and fAegon, Tommen, Myrcella and Willas (sorry Trys) and Asha as the respective rulers.

[Ygrain]

Hmm, shiny...

/some mud to make it less shiny/

Didn't see this in the previous headache-inducing incarnation:

"Jon was armored in black ice"

[IceFire125]

Barristan Selmy could not dispute the truth of that. He had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

He (Joffrey) laughed … and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Barristan Selmy could not dispute the truth of that. He had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

He (Joffrey) laughed … and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

Oh my! Great find.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wow, some battle went on in these threads last night.... Was that because he forum had been offline for a few hours guys?

In response to @markg171, who responded to my post quite a few pages before closing limit (but then the storm of posts came):

No Dany assumes that it must have been signed then. She has no idea when it was signed.

That's quite an assumption, isn't it? Dany doesn't show she assumes it. She states it, and shows no doubt. It is a contract she is reading, after all, and besides the agreement and the signatures of the people involved, a date and location are common on contracts.. so saying 'she's just assuming' is your assumption, not a fact.

In fact, Dany is asked what the parchement says, and answers that it is a pact signed in Braavos. She's not assuming anything. She's stating a fact, when asked what's on the paper.

In addition, the presence of the Sealord is quite telling, isn't it. Was it you who suggested that perhaps the agreement was signed before her birth, hence the fact that she wasn't mentioned? So, if not signed at Braavos, then what? The Sealord and Oberyn managed to sneak to Dragonstone, and Robert did nothing about it when Oberyn returned to Dorne?

[Mithras]

Barristan Selmy could not dispute the truth of that. He had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

He (Joffrey) laughed … and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

And some people still do not believe that Jon will be the king in the end.

Surely, George is dropping lots and lots of subtle hints referring to Jon as the king for the nonce.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Hmm, shiny...

/some mud to make it less shiny/

Didn't see this in the previous headache-inducing incarnation:

"Jon was armored in black ice"

Jon NK confirmed 2k15. Nights King and Azor Ahai oh my,

[imaginepageant]

I think this got buried under the debate over what colors Rhaegar wore, so I'm just going to leave it here, too.

I'm still finding hints in Theon's chapters, this time in A Clash of Kings, Theon III. It might be a bit of a stretch, but still bears mentioning. (Thanks to IceFire125 for sharing the quote about Rhaegar that made me go, "Wait a second, didn't I just read that in Theon's chapter?")

Theon and his company make quick work of the northmen sent to deal with the raiders harrying the Stony Shore. These northmen, led by Benfred Tallhart, had added a strange decoration to their banners:

They'd been joking and even singing as they'd come on, the three trees of Tallhart streaming above them while rabbitskins flapped stupidly from the points of their lances.

Theon is confused by the rabbitskins; he intended to ask Benfred their meaning, but had forgotten in the wake of Benfred's contemptuous defiance. We, however, have the answer. Inspired by Robb Stark's victories in the War of the Five Kings, Benfred gathered a company of lances. They called themselves "young wolves," but Leobald Tallhart mocked them for it and called them "young rabbits" instead. They then took on the name Wild Hares.

Theon scorns the young company as well, in his conversation with Dagmer Cleftjaw:

"We could hear them singing," the old warrior said. "It was a good song, and they sang it bravely."

"They sang better than they fought. Harps would have done them as much good as their lances did."

This line bears a remarkable resemblance to another, spoken by Barristan Selmy in A Storm of Swords, Daenerys IV:

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

This conversation immediately leads into the story of Rhaegar's victory at the tourney of Harrenhal, where he crowned Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty.

So, we have a northman calling himself a wolf in the style of Robb Stark only to be told he is not a wolf, a strong parallel between this northman and Rhaegar Targaryen, and a connection to the tourney where it all began for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

One last thing: rabbits are often used as symbols of sexuality, fertility, and rebirth.

[BearQueen87]

Hmm, shiny...

/some mud to make it less shiny/

Didn't see this in the previous headache-inducing incarnation:

"Jon was armored in black ice"

Bless you

[snip]

Very nice! You're finding a lot of interesting stuff!

[MtnLion]

Why in the world would the Martells be supportive of it?

And yes, you're right, but that was back when Targs could get away with such things. It had always been a sin, but once the Targs lost the dragons, they weren't able to get away with it. GRRM said so himself, "Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."

There is this SSM. The final sentence is interesting: There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be). A few instances after Maegor, like maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna and Elia, that he can look up in his notes, or make up as he needs?

Your earlier suggestion that polygamy is a sin is incorrect. Nowhere is polygamy described as a sin. But, incestous relationships are described as an affront to gods and men. Why would Westeros tolerate brother and sister marrying? Rhaella and Aerys were brother and sister, and they didn't have any dragons.