Heresy 146

[MaesterSam]

While Bloodraven seems to have great power through the Weirwoods and the way he has connected with Bran, perhaps his existence as a greenseer is not the reward that we assume it is. He suggests this to Bran when he discusses seeing those he loved in the past and being unable to really interact with them or make events from his own past and life better. His knowledge of the past could leave him as a futile witness, at times. There is no doubt that he is quite powerful.

I agree, 'reward' may not be the appropriate term. Still, unlike Bran, BR presumably had a choice when he first arrived in that cave, and he chose to stay and watch. Also, the CotF refer to greensight as a gift, and it certainly gives him a lot of power. Again, comparing his fate to that of the Rat Cook, it's pretty striking how differently kinslaying is treated by the Old Gods in these two cases.

Let's remember, when it comes to the Blackfyre rebellion(s), BR killed several members of Daemon's family, all of whom were pretty closely related to him. The violation of guest right was quite extreme as well (and also involved a relative!)- it wasn't just a guest, but one whom he had specifically invited to come make his claim, and guaranteed safe passage in writing. He then had him killed as soon as he arrived.

There are two things about the whole situation nagging me.

The first is that, in reality, we know almost nothing about the Singers, save for the small window that Leaf has granted us, and some legends. For example, is there any reason to believe that they're any more of a unified people than men are? Surely decisions such as the Pact and the Breaking of Dorne must have been controversial, or divisive. Are these Singers in the northern mound a reflection of the Singers as a whole, or are they up there doing their own thing?

The second is just how much influence a Greenseer truly has, especially if they're viewed as a sort of simultaneous king and intermediary with the Old Gods. If Bloodraven says "You know, guys, I've been chatting with the Old Gods, and they say we're not meeting the sacrifice quota," do they take him at his word?

Sure, we've seen throats being cut before the weirwoods, and it's implied that there was a lot of sacrifice involved to break the Arm of Dorne, but I wonder if what we've seen in BR's cave is the status quo. Is that hundreds of years worth of sacrifices, or has BR been up to something that might necessitate some extra blood?

You're right, we don't know if the Singers are one group or many, or whether they all agree with each other. It seems to me as if Leaf is suggesting that the vast majority of the remaining Singers live in the cave of black and white though, and they seem to be a fairly cohesive group. But I agree, we really have no idea what they are up to, or what they intend to do with Bran.

The question of the sacrifices is very interesting. Some of the skulls had roots growing all through them, so I would guess those are not brand new- but then, BR has been down there for what, 50 years now? That's definitely enough time for some roots to grow. It's hard to say how much influence he has over Leaf and co. On the one hand, they could kill him pretty easily it seems. But then we also know he is a powerful sorcerer, and may be controlling them somehow, like the NK forced the Watch to go along with his rule. I do find it interesting that we haven't seen a single example of BR actually communicating with any of the CotF living in the cave. Leaf delivers Bran and co and helps to feed them, but we never hear her talking to BR, ever.

I think the bottom line is, BR in life was not a nice guy, and we have no reason to suspect that he is now. In his time, everyone was afraid of him, he had a worldwide spy network (guess some things never change) and he was a kinslayer and violator of guest right. I would be pretty surprised if he was training Bran to save the world.

[MaesterSam]

Hi all, first post. Have been lurking Heresy since about number 50 but just wanted to add a small contribution to the current discussion.

I find the connection between the green men and horns really interesting and the horned lord and so on, and above it was mentioned that the antler that killed the dire wolf could really be a reference to green men rather than baratheon in its symbolism. Something I remember distinctly is in aGoT when Ned is remembering Robert he thinks of him as like a great horned god. Sorry I don't have the exact quote. This to me seems deliberate but perhaps someone else has an idea of what GRRM is trying to do here.

Anyway, really enjoy the discussions.

Welcome to Heresy, Gilly!

I believe you were referring to this passage (nice catch, by the way!):

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. “Look at us, Ned,” Robert said. “Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together...”

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

What I also find interesting about this is the degree to which Ned blames himself here. He did try to tell Robert, but Robert didn't want to hear it and went off hunting. Saying Ned hid the truth is a stretch, and he most certainly did not lie. Unless of course there is something else (besides Cersei's incest) that he never told Robert, from longer ago. Which would go nicely with his extreme guilt over events of the past. Rereading AGOT, Ned seems to have a lot of regrets about the events of the rebellion... I have a feeling that we don't know the half of what happened in that war, and not just as it relates to R and J.

[Luddagain]

I am not a regular reader of this site so I apologize if already discussed BUT several times we get words like Craster worships crueler gods, and also that it is somehow Craster's fate/burden to worship these gods.

.

Now we also here similar tales in the WOIF book and we also here of other underground old ones and gods. We here of the Barrow Kings and their curses and the King of the First Men

We also here of the now forgotton practice of human sacrifice. We also know GRRM draws on myth especially Celtic myth and there is the Irish myth of child sacrifice to Cromm Cradich.

Mormant uses these words crueler gods to Jon so we can assume that Craster's god is NOT the heart tree.

As noted Garth Greenhand fairly obviously represents the Oak King of Summer and is associated with the green seers and the Horned god

So if Garth is the King of Summer we must suppose that the Starks are the Kings of Winter ie the Holly King

Both the Starks and the Gardeners were around in the Age of heroes.

Now while the Summer King and the Winter King are constantly at war they each need one another for seasons to be in balance.

In this scenario both the Summer and winter kings would be friends of the CoF because they are nature's balance. Any activity that upsets the balance Fire OR Ice will destroy the world.

BUT

What other players were around in the age of heroes that may also have a role. There seem to be a few mentioned who are important.

In the North the Barrow Kings are important and may be OPPOSED to the CoF with their summer winter balance. Perhaps they are the First men who did NOT willingly sign the pact. Then you have craster and co worshiping the Old Cruel Gods - WW. I incline to the view that the Dustins and Boltons are worshipers of the Old Cold Gods, along with Craster.

Directly opposed to the cold gods are the fire gods, coming form Asshai. Obviously R'allor worshippers belong in this camp.

I am yet to think through the role of other gods/houses - Storm, drowned etc.

[Frey family reunion]

I thought it was interesting that the title of the poem (The Hollow Men) was inspired by a combination of Hollow Hills and Broken Men. Both themes or motifs that Martin works rather deeply into his story.

The title also recalls a certain pattern in Martin's use of knights, men, suits of armor and honor - especially in Sansa's narrative (true knights vs hollow knights), but possibly thrown into higher relief by contrasts in Arya's story (ie, hollow knights vs. knights of the hollow hill).

Some interesting things going on in and between the following texts:

-----

...Ned followed. Littlefinger led him into a tower, down a stair, across a small sunken courtyard, and along a deserted corridor where empty suits of armor stood sentinel along the walls. They were relics of the Targaryens, black steel with dragon scales cresting their helms, now dusty and forgotten...

-----

[Littlefinger] leaned back and looked Ned full in the face, his grey-green eyes bright with mockery. "You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move."

-------

"...what is your answer, Lord Eddard? Give me your word that you'll tell the queen what she wants to hear when she comes calling."

"If I did, my word would be as hollow as an empty suit of armor. My life is not so precious to me as that."

"Pity." The eunuch stood. "And your daughter's life, my lord? How precious is that?"

A chill pierced Neds heart. "My daughter..."

-----

[Cersei] had insisted that Joffrey strip Blount of his white cloak on the grounds of treason and cowardice. And now she replaces him with another man just as hollow.

------

"There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool."

Tyrions anger flashed. "Lord Janos is a hollow suit of armor who will sell himself to the highest bidder."

"I count that a point in his favor. Who is like to bid higher than us?"

-----

Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper's light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, [sansa] thought...

.

I too thought of the scene where Ned and Petyr were walking past the empt suits of Targaryen armor. It seems we have empty armor (hollow men) in the South and scarecrow sentinels (the stuffed men) in the North. The hollow knights are playing their Game of Thrones while the Scarecrow sentinels of the Night's Watch spend their days manning a wall seperating one group of wild mountain folk in the north from another group of wild mountain group in the south. As the series starts both sides are playing out a fairly meaningless existence.

We can even segue this conversation to the original post of this thread. When Catelyn is visiting Renly's summer knights as they feast and tourney and allegedly get ready for war Catelyn finds herself alone in Renly's tent and looks upon his empty suit of armor:

Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought.

Renly's green armor both reflects the antlered Green Men of legend and folklore and it also seems to reference the Green Knight antagonist of Ser Gawain. In fact after Renly's death this is the same armor that Ser Garlan puts on to trick friends and foes that Renly returned from the dead like Gawain's Green Knight. Of course it's all a farce just like most things associated with Renly.

However, Cat sees her own reflection in the armor's breastplate, the face of a drowned woman. And of course later on she has her throat cut and then thrown into a river (twice drowned once in blood once in water?). Unlike Renly Cat truly rises from the dead, thus making her much closer to the Green Knight of Arthurian legend and perhaps much closer to the Green Men of our story.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I too thought of the scene where Ned and Petyr were walking past the empt suits of Targaryen armor. It seems we have empty armor (hollow men) in the South and scarecrow sentinels (the stuffed men) in the North. The hollow knights are playing their Game of Thrones while the Scarecrow sentinels of the Night's Watch spend their days manning a wall seperating one group of wild mountain folk in the north from another group of wild mountain group in the south. As the series starts both sides are playing out a fairly meaningless existence.

We can even segue this conversation to the original post of this thread. When Catelyn is visiting Renly's summer knights as they feast and tourney and allegedly get ready for war Catelyn finds herself alone in Renly's tent and looks upon his empty suit of armor:

Renly's green armor both reflects the antlered Green Men of legend and folklore and it also seems to reference the Green Knight antagonist of Ser Gawain. In fact after Renly's death this is the same armor that Ser Garlan puts on to trick friends and foes that Renly returned from the dead like Gawain's Green Knight. Of course it's all a farce just like most things associated with Renly.

However, Cat sees her own reflection in the armor's breastplate, the face of a drowned woman. And of course later on she has her throat cut and then thrown into a river (twice drowned once in blood once in water?). Unlike Renly Cat truly rises from the dead, thus making her much closer to the Green Knight of Arthurian legend and perhaps much closer to the Green Men of our story.

That's a good catch, there. I didn't remember that bit about Renly's armor.

In addition to notions of Hollow Men (vs true knights)... we may also have Hollow Women (vs true ladies):

Joffrey frowned. Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord." (2.01, SANSA)

-----

Sansa could not bear the sight of him, he frightened her so, yet she had been raised in all the ways of courtesy. A true lady would not notice his face, she told herself. "You rode gallantly today, Ser Sandor," she made herself say.

Sandor Clegane snarled at her. "Spare me your empty little compliments, girl... and your sers. I am no knight. I spit on them and their vows. My brother is a knight..." (1.29, SANSA)

Also, beyond the obvious ironies, reversals, and broken tropes displayed through the Clegane brothers... we have a couple of very good (if not explicitly named) examples of Hollow Men amongst the members of the Kingsguard:

Ser Meryn Trant ("No True Knight"):

"My lady," he said, bowing, as if he had not beaten her bloody only three hours past. "His Grace has instructed me to escort you to the throne room."

"Did he instruct you to hit me if I refused to come?"

"Are you refusing to come, my lady?" The look he gave her was without expression. He did not so much as glance at the bruise he had left her.

He did not hate her, Sansa realized; neither did he love her. He felt nothing for her at all. She was only a... a thing to him. "No," she said, rising. She wanted to rage, to hurt him as he'd hurt her, to warn him that when she was queen she would have him exiled if he ever dared strike her again... but she remembered what the Hound had told her, so all she said was, "I shall do whatever His Grace commands."

"As I do," he replied.

"Yes... but you are no true knight, Ser Meryn."

Sandor Clegane would have laughed at that, Sansa knew. Other men might have cursed her, warned her to keep silent, even begged for her forgiveness. Ser Meryn Trant did none of these. Ser Meryn Trant simply did not care. (1.67, SANSA)

And Ser Mandon Moore ("The Perfect White Knight"):

Lord Arryn brought him to King's Landing and Robert gave him his white cloak, but neither loved him much, I fear. Nor was he the sort the smallfolk cheer in tourneys, despite his undoubted prowess. Why, even his brothers of the Kingsguard never warmed to him. Ser Barristan was once heard to say that the man had no friend but his sword and no life but duty… but you know, I do not think Selmy meant it altogether as praise. Which is queer when you consider it, is it not? Those are the very qualities we seek in our Kingsguard, it could be said—men who live not for themselves, but for their king. By those lights, our brave Ser Mandon was the perfect white knight. And he died as a knight of the Kingsguard ought, with sword in hand, defending one of the king's own blood." (3.12, TYRION)

Which is not to even mention the curious case of Ser Robert Strong... who appears just at the end of ADWD.

Or that looming figure in Bran's 3EC dream:

"...a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Also, beyond the obvious ironies and broken tropes displayed through the Clegane brothers... we have a couple of very good (if not explicitly named) examples of Hollow Men amongst the members of the Kingsguard:

Ser Meryn Trant ("No True Knight"):

And Ser Mandon Moore ("The Perfect White Knight"):

And just to follow up on this for a moment... these examples raise what might be an interesting question, which would be:

What is the difference between a True Knight and the perfect or ideal Kingsguard Knight?

[Summer Is Coming!]

We can even segue this conversation to the original post of this thread. When Catelyn is visiting Renly's summer knights as they feast and tourney and allegedly get ready for war Catelyn finds herself alone in Renly's tent and looks upon his empty suit of armor:

Renly's green armor both reflects the antlered Green Men of legend and folklore and it also seems to reference the Green Knight antagonist of Ser Gawain. In fact after Renly's death this is the same armor that Ser Garlan puts on to trick friends and foes that Renly returned from the dead like Gawain's Green Knight. Of course it's all a farce just like most things associated with Renly.

Renly as a parody of the Gawain's Green Knight is a nice thought. It's interesting that depending on which Garth legends are accepted, Renly could be taking House Durrandon, through its marriage to House Baratheon, back to its roots in Garth, recombining elements of two extinct Houses (Gardener and Durrandon) which may both be descended from Garth by having green armor and the stag's horns. Although Renly as a lover of play and entertainment might appreciate this, I don't think he is consciously committing this return to roots.

[Black Crow]

Hi all, first post. Have been lurking Heresy since about number 50 but just wanted to add a small contribution to the current discussion.

I find the connection between the green men and horns really interesting and the horned lord and so on, and above it was mentioned that the antler that killed the dire wolf could really be a reference to green men rather than baratheon in its symbolism. Something I remember distinctly is in aGoT when Ned is remembering Robert he thinks of him as like a great horned god. Sorry I don't have the exact quote. This to me seems deliberate but perhaps someone else has an idea of what GRRM is trying to do here.

Anyway, really enjoy the discussions.

Welcome to Heresy and having now broken the Ice as it were in posting, I hope to see more from you.

The question of the animal sigils is an interesting one and there's a fairly clear impression given in the World Book that they go back to the First men and were adopted by successive incomers. In this case the Stag appears to belong to the Durrandons and was adopted by the Baratheons when they married in.

Now what's probably significant about this is what I said earlier about Jon being a son of Winterfell through his mother and Bloodraven being a son of Raventree through his mother. If we take this a little further; its emphasised by Jon being a dark-haired Stark in looks with nary a hint of Targaryen silver in his hair. Bloodraven likewise had dark rather than Targaryen silver hair [before he died in the tree] and the Baratheons were likewise dark. Should we therefore see the "Baratheons" not as a Valyrian but a First Men family - and is this why the Targaryens were so keen on incest to keep the bloodline pure?

[Summer Is Coming!]

And just to follow up on this for a moment... these examples raise what might be an interesting question, which would be:

What is the difference between a True Knight and the perfect or ideal Kingsguard Knight?

Jaime seems to spot this difference too when he asks I believe Jon Darry about protecting Rhaella from Aerys and the vows they swore.

Ever since reading The Hedge Knight, I have thought of Baelor Breakspear as the embodiment of a True Knight, emphasizing the care he shows towards protecting the weak, regardless of their connection to him. We can also consider that the knights as an order probably existed for many years through their association with the Faith and the Seven while the Kingsguard is an institution that dates back to the Dornish Wars of Aegon I. One Kingsguard ideal that comes to mind is how some of them think or are thought of as keepers of secrets, the king's or royal secrets, not something I recall regular knights really valuing, although for them it would probably be the lord or lady's secrets.

With the Hollow Men, we also have the Maesters, Knights of the Mind. Pycelle could be the hollowest knight of the mind, though what that says about his mental capacity, I cannot say.

[Black Crow]

There is an odd little thought here, following on a little from that, concerning the Horned Lord.

There's a well known aphorism that every massacre has its survivors - a sort of counterpart to somebody always tells. And where are such survivors to go if not beyond the Wall - hence my suggestion that Mance Rayder may be a Blackfyre. The Horned Lord may therefore have been one of the Storm Kings, fled beyond the Wall, and indeed through all of this there may be an underlying subtext that the business of the old powers awakening may mean exactly that and that Westeros itself and all its old families and old powerers is re-awakening to reclaim the land.

[Summer Is Coming!]

The question of the animal sigils is an interesting one and there's a fairly clear impression given in the World Book that they go back to the First men and were adopted by successive incomers. In this case the Stag appears to belong to the Durrandons and was adopted by the Baratheons when they married in.

Now what's probably significant about this is what I said earlier about Jon being a son of Winterfell through his mother and Bloodraven being a son of Raventree through his mother. If we take this a little further; its emphasised by Jon being a dark-haired Stark in looks with nary a hint of Targaryen silver in his hair. Bloodraven likewise had dark rather than Targaryen silver hair [before he died in the tree] and the Baratheons were likewise dark. Should we therefore see the "Baratheons" not as a Valyrian but a First Men family - and is this why the Targaryens were so keen on incest to keep the bloodline pure?

The dark hair that we associate with Robert may stem from the Durrandon princess marrying Orys Baratheon after the Conquest, especially if Orys was a Targaryen bastard. What's fascinating if we think of Garth as a progenitor of both House Gardener and House Durrandon is that it is the Durrandon king, with a horned sigil that we can associate with the Green Men's magic, who initially contacts Aegon I and is partially responsible for drawing the Targaryens' attention and dragons to Westeros, as a continent proper. Thus a descendent and heraldic heir of Garth invites the destruction of his own house and House Gardener, 2 of only 3 kings who die during the conquest. A symbol both living and heraldic of Garth and the Green magic draws the living and heraldic symbol of Fire magic to Westeros.

Aegon I or some other Targaryen may have eventually decided to bring dragons to Westeros, but it is interesting that at least some of Garth's lines are eliminated due to intervention from within.

[Summer Is Coming!]

There is an odd little thought here, following on a little from that, concerning the Horned Lord.

There's a well known aphorism that every massacre has its survivors - a sort of counterpart to somebody always tells. And where are such survivors to go if not beyond the Wall - hence my suggestion that Mance Rayder may be a Blackfyre. The Horned Lord may therefore have been one of the Storm Kings, fled beyond the Wall, and indeed through all of this there may be an underlying subtext that the business of the old powers awakening may mean exactly that and that Westeros itself and all its old families and old powerers is re-awakening to reclaim the land.

If this is true, and the old families awaken, Storm Kings, Gardeners, even Barrow Kings, then should the people displaced by the First Men: the Children, giants, possibly Others, should they also awaken to claim their lands from the early kings? We have seen Children, Mance's giants, and Others within the narrative, but would the reawakening keep going back all the way to the Dawn Age?

[Black Crow]

If this is true, and the old families awaken, Storm Kings, Gardeners, even Barrow Kings, then should the people displaced by the First Men: the Children, giants, possibly Others, should they also awaken to claim their lands from the early kings? We have seen Children, Mance's giants, and Others within the narrative, but would the reawakening keep going back all the way to the Dawn Age?

Its certainly an interesting thought, but then of course there's the Pact linking those families with the Children

[Black Crow]

And another thought coming out of that suggestion about the Horned Lord mayhaps being just that - an exiled Storm Lord.

Its a question of perspective.

Mance Rayder and his predecessors are known as Kings beyond the Wall.

Yet to the free folk where they live, say by way of example up the Milkwater or at Craster's place, beyond the Wall is on the other side of it, ie; in the green and pleasant land of Westeros.

So is the King beyond the Wall someone who promises to take his people beyond the Wall, or does it suggest that the Free Folk [and their occasional kings] did not originate beyond the Wall and were not trapped up there when it was created, but for a variety of reasons fled beyond it afterwards

[Frey family reunion]

Jaime seems to spot this difference too when he asks I believe Jon Darry about protecting Rhaella from Aerys and the vows they swore.

Ever since reading The Hedge Knight, I have thought of Baelor Breakspear as the embodiment of a True Knight, emphasizing the care he shows towards protecting the weak, regardless of their connection to him. We can also consider that the knights as an order probably existed for many years through their association with the Faith and the Seven while the Kingsguard is an institution that dates back to the Dornish Wars of Aegon I. One Kingsguard ideal that comes to mind is how some of them think or are thought of as keepers of secrets, the king's or royal secrets, not something I recall regular knights really valuing, although for them it would probably be the lord or lady's secrets.

With the Hollow Men, we also have the Maesters, Knights of the Mind. Pycelle could be the hollowest knight of the mind, though what that says about his mental capacity, I cannot say.

I've always thought that Pycelle has always been seen in an overly negative light. Perhaps if we had a POV from him we'd be a tad more sympathetic. He like Jaime, had to oversee Aerys' most insane and brutal moments. So can we really fault him for convincing Aerys to open the city gates? Especially since Aerys plan B was to ignite the entire city on fire. Letting Jon Arryn and his secrets die with him is probably his biggest negative, but once again through his eyes the alternative was the death of Cersei and her children and most certainly war over the throne, shortly after the realm's suffering thourough Robert's Rebellion. He even tried vainly to give Cersei sage advice during his last days on the Council.

I'm not really sure what a true knight is supposed to be. Ultimately it seems their job is to maintain the status quo. Even a "true knight" like Barristan was mainly known for his heroic efforts in maintaining the power base of the Targaryens. His finest moment was probably at Duskendale where he saved the King only to watch while the family and servents were executed for a conflict that started over the Lord of Duskendale's demands for more rights for his citizens.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, this quick mention in the World Book seems to run counter to the Horned Lord suggesting that magic is dangerous or unwieldy. If someone with that type of perspective would still use magic to pass the Wall then he must have one heck of a purpose to get on the other side, and I don't think it would be fleeing from the Others and WWs like Mance and his current group claim they are. This type of purpose would surely be referenced by Mance or someone else.

Also, the title Horned Lord makes me think again of the Green Men. Could one have somehow risen to be King Beyond the Wall or might he have invoked their powers, that being the sorcery he uses?

I would say Magic on a whole no,Sorcery yes.Sorcery is all about controlling forces to achieve change vs working with forces to achieve change.Sorcery is that aspect that requires a heavy price and the Horned Lord seems that he was ready to pay it. What he did probably acconplished it's purpose but what did it cost him is the question?

It's possible that a Green Man could have risen beyond the Wall not only as a leader but a teacher.The little we do get of him despite possibly using magic to get beyond the Wall he left enough behind whereby the Free Folk at least Val remebered something he spoke of.He may have been the originator of a priestly class.

There are two things about the whole situation nagging me.

The first is that, in reality, we know almost nothing about the Singers, save for the small window that Leaf has granted us, and some legends. For example, is there any reason to believe that they're any more of a unified people than men are? Surely decisions such as the Pact and the Breaking of Dorne must have been controversial, or divisive. Are these Singers in the northern mound a reflection of the Singers as a whole, or are they up there doing their own thing?

The second is just how much influence a Greenseer truly has, especially if they're viewed as a sort of simultaneous king and intermediary with the Old Gods. If Bloodraven says "You know, guys, I've been chatting with the Old Gods, and they say we're not meeting the sacrifice quota," do they take him at his word?

Sure, we've seen throats being cut before the weirwoods, and it's implied that there was a lot of sacrifice involved to break the Arm of Dorne, but I wonder if what we've seen in BR's cave is the status quo. Is that hundreds of years worth of sacrifices, or has BR been up to something that might necessitate some extra blood?

The world book pg,7 does infer that their were "clans" of Children. It also says that for certainty the Children were led by their Greenseers.I've been saying this a while now that it's a possibility that the COTF are pawns as well in this whole thing; taken advantaged off the way Gendel and Gorne dupped them and the Giants out of a Cavern so they themselves could use it to get under the Wall.I see no guile in the Children, their actions and thoughts shows a naivete that's a bit pitiful.Reminicient of again native people who had so much being used because they needed human GS's.I think BR has been playing a longterm game and he may not be the only one.

Nice point, I wonder if originally the Singers were able to communicate through a variety of different animals. Just as the Starks acquired, possibly through intermarriage with the Warg King, the ability to skinchange direwolves, maybe the Singers were divided into tribes or castes based on the separate animals they used, possibly a singer group for the almost extinct or extinct unicorns. The massive extermination of the Children by the Andals may have led to some of these tribes becoming extinct, and so the ability with some creatures was lost.

Both the series and the WB says that they could,with the WB stressing on Ravens.As pointed out above their seem to be existing as separate Clans.But it's funny humans would look at them as a "homgenous" group,their mistake again comparative to how the Wildings are viewed.

I think its Winter. Remember that what we're told early on that the children lived in their wooden cities and in hollow hills. As to the first I would suggest that we're looking at villages up in the tree-tops like those refugees Arya encounters while travelling with the Brotherhood, but just as the refugees are about to lose their easy concealment because winter is coming and the leaves will soon go, so the children moved down below when the leaves fell. I doubt though that the caves fell out of use during the summer because of the importance in a lot of the stuff GRRM is drawing on of going into the Earth [hence the songs of the Earth] in order to properly commune both with it and with the dead.

I don't therefore think that there's anything amiss and its possible that Coldhands is indeed a green man - an undead servant of the children and that's why he's different from the other corpses we've encountered.

ETA: as to Bloodraven - remember that he's really a Blackwood, and that just as Jon is a son of Winterfell through his mother, so Bloodraven is a son of Raventree Hall through his mother.

I agree with most of this,the only thing i doubt is the level of involvement of the Children-Passive/Active.

[wolfmaid7]

You're right, we don't know if the Singers are one group or many, or whether they all agree with each other. It seems to me as if Leaf is suggesting that the vast majority of the remaining Singers live in the cave of black and white though, and they seem to be a fairly cohesive group. But I agree, we really have no idea what they are up to, or what they intend to do with Bran.

The question of the sacrifices is very interesting. Some of the skulls had roots growing all through them, so I would guess those are not brand new- but then, BR has been down there for what, 50 years now? That's definitely enough time for some roots to grow. It's hard to say how much influence he has over Leaf and co. On the one hand, they could kill him pretty easily it seems. But then we also know he is a powerful sorcerer, and may be controlling them somehow, like the NK forced the Watch to go along with his rule. I do find it interesting that we haven't seen a single example of BR actually communicating with any of the CotF living in the cave. Leaf delivers Bran and co and helps to feed them, but we never hear her talking to BR, ever.

I think the bottom line is, BR in life was not a nice guy, and we have no reason to suspect that he is now. In his time, everyone was afraid of him, he had a worldwide spy network (guess some things never change) and he was a kinslayer and violator of guest right. I would be pretty surprised if he was training Bran to save the world.

I think BR might be hitting the Children "a 4 for a 6." They basically have a bee line to their gods ( guidance) they may wan't that to be preserved it's their heritage so that might place them in a vulnerable position.What each Greenseer is basically doing is Skinchanging the weirnet and we know what BR was like in real life.How much tranference might occur between him and his information hub.

Or should i say how much of it is him or the Weirwoods on account of him if you get my drift. Kind of like the Lawn mower man in reverse.

I am not a regular reader of this site so I apologize if already discussed BUT several times we get words like Craster worships crueler gods, and also that it is somehow Craster's fate/burden to worship these gods.

.

Now we also here similar tales in the WOIF book and we also here of other underground old ones and gods. We here of the Barrow Kings and their curses and the King of the First Men

We also here of the now forgotton practice of human sacrifice. We also know GRRM draws on myth especially Celtic myth and there is the Irish myth of child sacrifice to Cromm Cradich.

Mormant uses these words crueler gods to Jon so we can assume that Craster's god is NOT the heart tree.

As noted Garth Greenhand fairly obviously represents the Oak King of Summer and is associated with the green seers and the Horned god

So if Garth is the King of Summer we must suppose that the Starks are the Kings of Winter ie the Holly King

Both the Starks and the Gardeners were around in the Age of heroes.

Now while the Summer King and the Winter King are constantly at war they each need one another for seasons to be in balance.

In this scenario both the Summer and winter kings would be friends of the CoF because they are nature's balance. Any activity that upsets the balance Fire OR Ice will destroy the world.

BUT

What other players were around in the age of heroes that may also have a role. There seem to be a few mentioned who are important.

In the North the Barrow Kings are important and may be OPPOSED to the CoF with their summer winter balance. Perhaps they are the First men who did NOT willingly sign the pact. Then you have craster and co worshiping the Old Cruel Gods - WW. I incline to the view that the Dustins and Boltons are worshipers of the Old Cold Gods, along with Craster.

Directly opposed to the cold gods are the fire gods, coming form Asshai. Obviously R'allor worshippers belong in this camp.

I am yet to think through the role of other gods/houses - Storm, drowned etc.

Welcome to Heresy some nice things here particularly inviting us to think about what other players might have been around.I don't think it's a stretch to think that some men and also some children might not have been happy with the conditions.

I too thought of the scene where Ned and Petyr were walking past the empt suits of Targaryen armor. It seems we have empty armor (hollow men) in the South and scarecrow sentinels (the stuffed men) in the North. The hollow knights are playing their Game of Thrones while the Scarecrow sentinels of the Night's Watch spend their days manning a wall seperating one group of wild mountain folk in the north from another group of wild mountain group in the south. As the series starts both sides are playing out a fairly meaningless existence.

We can even segue this conversation to the original post of this thread. When Catelyn is visiting Renly's summer knights as they feast and tourney and allegedly get ready for war Catelyn finds herself alone in Renly's tent and looks upon his empty suit of armor:

Renly's green armor both reflects the antlered Green Men of legend and folklore and it also seems to reference the Green Knight antagonist of Ser Gawain. In fact after Renly's death this is the same armor that Ser Garlan puts on to trick friends and foes that Renly returned from the dead like Gawain's Green Knight. Of course it's all a farce just like most things associated with Renly.

However, Cat sees her own reflection in the armor's breastplate, the face of a drowned woman. And of course later on she has her throat cut and then thrown into a river (twice drowned once in blood once in water?). Unlike Renly Cat truly rises from the dead, thus making her much closer to the Green Knight of Arthurian legend and perhaps much closer to the Green Men of our story.

Oh i like the Ghost of Renly and the Green Knight connection.

There is an odd little thought here, following on a little from that, concerning the Horned Lord.

There's a well known aphorism that every massacre has its survivors - a sort of counterpart to somebody always tells. And where are such survivors to go if not beyond the Wall - hence my suggestion that Mance Rayder may be a Blackfyre. The Horned Lord may therefore have been one of the Storm Kings, fled beyond the Wall, and indeed through all of this there may be an underlying subtext that the business of the old powers awakening may mean exactly that and that Westeros itself and all its old families and old powerers is re-awakening to reclaim the land.

Kind of like Misfit Island where all the rejects end up....I like that the HL may have been a defeated SL.I also like that he may have been a GM also.

[Matthew.]

ETA: as to Bloodraven - remember that he's really a Blackwood, and that just as Jon is a son of Winterfell through his mother, so Bloodraven is a son of Raventree Hall through his mother.

Why should one bloodline be given disproportionate emphasis? BR's mother was noted for her humility, kindness, and generosity, qualities she did not pass on to her son. Nor did she seemingly pass on any proper respect or fear of the Old Gods, as reflected in Bloodraven's personal ethics.

And if BR views himself as "more Blackwood, less Targaryen," that doesn't seem to play out in his personal relationships. When Daemon II Blackfyre's dream of a dragon hatching from an egg is figuratively fulfilled by Egg in the Mystery Knight, there's mingled interest and respect on BR's part toward Egg, and throughout their conversation BR doesn't speak with formality or honorifics, he calls Egg "cousin."

Blackwood and Bracken rivalry is, of course, a part of the background flavor for BR's rivalry with Bittersteel, but it's not the only thing going on there. We have it from BR himself that there was also a brother he loved, and a woman he desired; Bittersteel seeks to usurp the brother, and desires the same woman.

Speaking of the brother he loved, both Daeron II and Aerys I (whom raises BR to the station of Hand) are described as scholarly, and bookish. In the latter's case, it's put forth by the WB that Aerys I and BR got along because of a shared interest in the arcane, and the higher mysteries, an interest that BR also shares with Shiera Seastar. Yet another 'bookish' Targaryen is Maester Aemon, who is sent to the Wall with BR by Egg, where they serve together for 19 years. In other words, most of the Targs he spent his life with were of the Prophecy-Obsessed Fruitcake variety.

I'm not saying he should be summed up as a Targaryen, I'm saying it's complicated; he's spent almost as much of his life in Weirnet as he spent trying to keep Targaryens in power, and I think his present day motives are meant to be a giant question mark for the reader.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Jaime seems to spot this difference too when he asks I believe Jon Darry about protecting Rhaella from Aerys and the vows they swore.

Ever since reading The Hedge Knight, I have thought of Baelor Breakspear as the embodiment of a True Knight, emphasizing the care he shows towards protecting the weak, regardless of their connection to him. We can also consider that the knights as an order probably existed for many years through their association with the Faith and the Seven while the Kingsguard is an institution that dates back to the Dornish Wars of Aegon I. One Kingsguard ideal that comes to mind is how some of them think or are thought of as keepers of secrets, the king's or royal secrets, not something I recall regular knights really valuing, although for them it would probably be the lord or lady's secrets.

With the Hollow Men, we also have the Maesters, Knights of the Mind. Pycelle could be the hollowest knight of the mind, though what that says about his mental capacity, I cannot say.

Oh... that's a good addition to the conversation there, Summer - I hadn't considered the maesters at all. But Luwin does use that phrase to try and entice Bran away from obsessing about magic and dreams. (Of course, right after that Jojen tells him: "A knight is what you want. A warg is what you are. You can't change that, Bran, you can't deny it or push it away...")

Re: the Hedge Knight... I hadn't considered Baelor Breakspear in terms of being a "true knight," though certainly he is one of the minority of characters who appear to recognize what that might be. Perhaps he is intended to look like what we might consider a "true king." Martin seems to put a number of "true kings" in his stories, though typically they never get to wear actual crowns themselves. I think it's pretty clear that the "true knight" in that story is the man who never truely received his knighthood at all (in spite of his lies to that effect)... Dunk the Lunk.

I'm not really sure what a true knight is supposed to be. Ultimately it seems their job is to maintain the status quo. Even a "true knight" like Barristan was mainly known for his heroic efforts in maintaining the power base of the Targaryens. His finest moment was probably at Duskendale where he saved the King only to watch while the family and servents were executed for a conflict that started over the Lord of Duskendale's demands for more rights for his citizens.

Not sure I'm following, FFR. Is it the True Knight (TK), or the Perfect Kingsguard Knight (PKK) you're thinking about here? I'm thinking it's the PKK. There is an interesting comment made by Varys about Ser Barristan, however... that of all Robert's Kingsguard knights, he was the only one made of "the true steel." Not sure if that's the same thing or not. The PKK appears to get characterized as a hollow suit of armor... while the "true steel" comment is actually a sword metaphor (if Varys' comment goes together with Donal Noye's commentary on the Baratheon brothers). I think the closest we've come to getting a "true knight" in these books would be in the characters of Sandor Clegane and/or Ser Dontos, as each relates to Sansa.

The notion that Mandon Moore (of the curiously dead eyes), or Meryn Trant (who did not care), represents the Perfect Kingsguard Knight is rather interesting, insofar as the key characteristic appears to be an amoral willingness to follow the orders of the king. While in contrast, the overriding duty of the True Knight seems to be a commitment to protecting the weak, or defending those unable to defend themselves.

[avernite]

Something I noticed, which seems a bit oddish and worthy of inspection:

Storm's End, Winterfell, Moat Cailin, the Hightower and the Wall are what I'd call the 'magic' and 'ancient' buildings of Westeros. All added to in later times, of course.

Of these, Winterfell is a bit of an odd one out. It's not on the coast. Its roots go deep, with the Crypts, which only the Wall may share (and even there the whole underground thing seems more an evasion, as with Davos sneaking under Storm's End, not an actual part of the Wall). And Moat Cailin, of course, supposedly wasn't close to water (or halfway-water) when built.

I'm wondering if there's more to these buildings. The Hightower is clearly westerly, Storm's End is east, Moat Cailin is in the center of the lot, and Winterfell + the Wall are aligned to some extent with the Moat.

The whole thing almost makes me think of Orion or other constellations. Storm's End and the Hightower are the legs/feet, Moat Cailin is the hip, Winterfell the heart, the Wall the shoulders, and the Fist the head?

Are there more of these ancient buildings which may be linked, somehow? It should be noted they're all clearly built, not like the Isle of Faces or any collection of Weirwoods, but actually constructed somehow. And all, apart from Moat Cailin, quite 'alive'.