Heresy 146

[Gilly for the gillyflower]

This argument of what makes a knight 'good' or 'bad' can, I think, be broadened to anyone in the series. Martin seems to like exploring what makes people good and bad in their own eyes and in the eyes of others. The best examples of this is Jaime who most readers hate at the beginning and then come to respect. Also characters like Sandor change in this way.

Martin likes to explore the idea of 'good' people who do bad things and vice versa. I think that in the end we will see many loved characters doing things that make us question how we feel about them. Most notable will be Jon, Dany, Bran and Arya. As some have mentioned above and throughout Heresy, we already have these characters beginning to do questionable things.

[Summer Is Coming!]

not to mention GRRM's own description of them as beautiful, elegant and dangerous.

Haven't read all of the Heresy forums, and I feel like this has been covered before, but the descriptions of the Others' accoutrements: their reflective armor and swords of crystal or ice, (I don't think the armor description is from a POV but from something Martin has written) sound a little like the description of House Dayne's sword Dawn.

From the World Book, "Those who had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp." I don't have my copy of AGOT handy, but from Sam in ASOS, "The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white." And later in the same POV, "The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip."; "Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too." At the very end, Grenn points to the sky in the direction they will need to go to find Mormont, "Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn."

I know that some readers associate the sword Dawn with Lightbringer, and I've never really bought into that idea, nor have I really felt like House Dayne is that integral to what is happening in either the main conflicts or in the conflict involving the Others, due to their almost complete lack of presence in the current narrative. Now I suddenly wonder if Dawn is a sword that was somehow taken from the Others or given to House Dayne, (possibly by the Others?) in the aftermath of the Long Night? It may not shatter every sword it contacts because it is not being wielded by an Other, so it retains certain physical properties, but not some or all of its magical properties. Since none of the Dornish or Southron families have encountered Others for many generations, they would not be expected to identify the sword. This could also be one more reason explaining why Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, along with his honor and connection to Ashara. There's no real textual link beyond the descriptions, but it might explain why Dawn is a strange, unique sword.

[Phillip Frye]

I'd argue that she [and Old Nan] are saying that the walkers are an ordinary hazard of winter, but the problem this time around is the wights and its not that old Uncle Albert goes for a walk in the woods and comes back with starry blue eyes, but that now he brings all his mates back and more. Everybody "knows" that the white walkers are responsible but now that the wights aint coming singly no more and Mance is standing up at the town meeting and saying he's fed up writing to the council and he's going to go and sort out the Craster Gang cos they're no more'n rangers and if we stand up to them...

Osha, knowing of the walkers of old, knows he's an ignorant Southerner talking mince and that the last thing you do with a hornet's nest is go poke a stick in it, gets out of Dodge before they start handing out the pitchforks and flaming torches.

I'm not endorsing every single statement above (some of it is clearly intended as jest). However, the wights showing up definitely got the wildlings on the move, and the text makes it clear that Osha is well aware of the Others because she is from north of the Wall, unlike Mance Rayder, and she has this knowledge from her female ancestors from when she took the Water of Life.

[Phillip Frye]

I know we all get into it from time to time, and sometimes it seems like we have more debates than discussions! But I was wondering today, do we all agree that the Long Night has come again?

I know a basic tenet of heresy is to question, rather than to espouse any dogma, but this actually seems like an area where we seemingly all agree...and that surprises me. :lol:

Have you read Redriver's Winter Fell theory? It's one of the best theories on the forum. The basic premise that there is a large storm swirling about the North, centered on Winterfell, like a giant hurricane, due to the removal of the Stark's from there. The storm finally arrives at the Wall from the south during the Ides of Marsh. It certainly subconsciously inspired my theory about the contents of the book in Harrenhal that Roose Bolton burned.

The problem that I have with Long Night 2.0 is that we don't have enough time to get to the really bad bits in two books. Sure, there are Others, the Army of the Damned, starving smallfolk, and doomed wildlings, but there really isn't time in two books for the Long Night to really get to the southern parts of Westeros without dooming everything north of the Neck first (where much of the action is happening). Basically, for us to see Others in the Riverlands, most of the North will have succumbed first to their forces, including Stannis, Asha, Theon, Mance Rayder, Wyman Manderly, Dolorous Edd, and many other great characters. I just can't believe that Martin is going to put most everyone north of the Neck through a hasty apocalypse just to see White Walkers hit King's Landing. Besides, we know that Cersei must first fulfill her destiny to burn that mo'fo' down to the ground.

If, however, there was more pages, such as my suggestion of eleven books and alienarea's suggestion of thirteen, then sure, we can see the Long Night 2.0 in all its continent consuming glory.

[Matthew.]

It's not clear whether or not Osha's comments actually confirm that the Others are a standard feature north of the Wall. The "we remember" and lineage of mothers lines could just as easily be interpreted as the Free Folk knowing deeper truths about the Others, passed down through the oral tradition, with the Others themselves not having been seen in a long time. Thus, she's come south because the Others are back, and she knows through her mother the implications of their return.

Furthermore, there's her comment about how the Old Gods are the only gods beyond the Wall. Does this mean that what's happening at Craster's Keep is strange and singular, his notion of "Cold Gods" being purely his own, or are the Cold Gods and Old Gods interrelated?

The latter is certainly possible, yet Osha also laments that Robb did not listen to her warnings of the cold winds rising, and says that the Old Gods won't help him in the south, as they have no power there. Osha believes Robb should be marching his army north, so if the Others are a creation of the Old Gods, why would Osha believe that they would lend Robb their power against their own creation?

The full context of her conversation, I believe, can be just as supportive for the idea that what's happening at Craster's Keep is a recent development, and not some sacred, long-maintained element of Free Folk culture--especially if theories about Craster's crow father being a Stark turn out to be correct.

[Matthew.]

Speaking of Craster's father, I took a quick glance at the Stark family tree in the WB to see if there were any unmarried male Starks that might roughly fit the timeline, and I'm seeing two possibilities: the sons of Artos the Implacable, Brandon and Benjen. Neither has their marriages, if any, noted, yet both are implicated to have had at least one child/issue.

Relative to the rest of the family tree, this is actually a very strange piece of information for it to have included, and may implicate that both bore bastards. For reference, Artos Stark was a third son, and never a lord of Winterfell, so his sons would have been well out of the line of succession, which makes them very likely candidates for the Wall.

[Phillip Frye]

Furthermore, there's her comment about how the Old Gods are the only gods beyond the Wall. Does this mean that what's happening at Craster's Keep is strange and singular, his notion of "Cold Gods" being purely his own, or are the Cold Gods and Old Gods interrelated?

The full context of her conversation, I believe, can be just as supportive for the idea that what's happening at Craster's Keep is a recent development, and not some sacred, long-maintained element of Free Folk culture--especially if theories about Craster's crow father being a Stark turn out to be correct.

My position is that leaving male babies out in the snow is not new. Someone fetching them is what is new. Heck, it's even possible that Addicted to Sinkholes agrees with the second statement. He just disagrees with me (and many others) about who precisely is doing the fetching (The Loyal Order of Antlered Men).

[Phillip Frye]

Speaking of Craster's father, I took a quick glance at the Stark family tree in the WB to see if there were any unmarried male Starks that might roughly fit the timeline, and I'm seeing two possibilities: the sons of Artos the Implacable, Brandon and Benjen. Neither has their marriages, if any, noted, yet both are implicated to have had at least one child/issue.

Relative to the rest of the family tree, this is actually a very strange piece of information for it to have included, and may implicate that both bore bastards. For reference, Artos Stark was a third son, and never a lord of Winterfell, so his sons would have been well out of the line of succession, which makes them very likely candidates for the Wall.

Those are possible candidates for some Starks on the Wall. Never underestimate some Snows being sent there as well. Deaddard is probably unusual for a Stark lord in that he never fooled around with women not named Lady Stark. Remember, his plans for Brandon was to be a leal bannerman for Robb Stark, holding down a holdfast somewhere for his brother. No mention was made about sending Bran or Rickon to the Wall. They had some spare Snow around for that job. In fact, some people have detected some palpable relief on the part of the Stark parents when Jon Snow volunteered to serve in the Night's Watch. No one threw themselves in front of his horse although I seem to recall some talk about "thinking hard before making such a momentous decision" sort of nonsense from Deaddard before the rest pulled out their hankerchiefs and waved good-bye.

I can see it back in the castle. "Thank the gods he's finally gone." "I thought that moody goth kid would never leave." "Eating us out of sustenance, he was." "Let's go see if he left us anything in his room."

[wolfmaid7]

Haven't read all of the Heresy forums, and I feel like this has been covered before, but the descriptions of the Others' accoutrements: their reflective armor and swords of crystal or ice, (I don't think the armor description is from a POV but from something Martin has written) sound a little like the description of House Dayne's sword Dawn.

From the World Book, "Those who had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp." I don't have my copy of AGOT handy, but from Sam in ASOS, "The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white." And later in the same POV, "The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip."; "Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too." At the very end, Green points to the sky in the direction they will need to go to find Mormont, "Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn."

I know that some readers associate the sword Dawn with Lightbringer, and I've never really bought into that idea, nor have I really felt like House Dayne is that integral to what is happening in either the main conflicts or in the conflict involving the Others, due to their almost complete lack of presence in the current narrative. Now I suddenly wonder if Dawn is a sword that was somehow taken from the Others or given to House Dayne, (possibly by the Others?) in the aftermath of the Long Night? It may not shatter every sword it contacts because it is not being wielded by an Other, so it retains certain physical properties, but not some or all of its magical properties. Since none of the Dornish or Southron families have encountered Others for many generations, they would not be expected to identify the sword. This could also be one more reason explaining why Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, along with his honor and connection to Ashara. There's no real textual link beyond the descriptions, but it might explain why Dawn is a strange, unique sword.

The description sure seem to fit,the only thing though is i'm not sure how such a sword might feel or be maintained out of an Other's possession.I imagone them to be very cold and made of ice.

I'm not endorsing every single statement above (some of it is clearly intended as jest). However, the wights showing up definitely got the wildlings on the move, and the text makes it clear that Osha is well aware of the Others because she is from north of the Wall, unlike Mance Rayder, and she has this knowledge from her female ancestors from when she took the Water of Life.

Haha i love that book. "Father the sleeper shall awaken!"

I kind of took that meaning myself.

It's not clear whether or not Osha's comments actually confirm that the Others are a standard feature north of the Wall. The "we remember" and lineage of mothers lines could just as easily be interpreted as the Free Folk knowing deeper truths about the Others, passed down through the oral tradition, with the Others themselves not having been seen in a long time. Thus, she's come south because the Others are back, and she knows through her mother the implications of their return.

Furthermore, there's her comment about how the Old Gods are the only gods beyond the Wall. Does this mean that what's happening at Craster's Keep is strange and singular, his notion of "Cold Gods" being purely his own, or are the Cold Gods and Old Gods interrelated?

The latter is certainly possible, yet Osha also laments that Robb did not listen to her warnings of the cold winds rising, and says that the Old Gods won't help him in the south, as they have no power there. Osha believes Robb should be marching his army north, so if the Others are a creation of the Old Gods, why would Osha believe that they would lend Robb their power against their own creation?

The full context of her conversation, I believe, can be just as supportive for the idea that what's happening at Craster's Keep is a recent development, and not some sacred, long-maintained element of Free Folk culture--especially if theories about Craster's crow father being a Stark turn out to be correct.

While i'll agree with most of this i would ask that one considers the stroy of Craster's mother.

She did a Gilly but unlike Gilly she and the babe was chased off.The watch for a longtime had been declining so why not take the babe and raise him like they did with Mance.Its practically the same thing with the Rangers of the current watch ignoring Craster's throw away.So it seems their is a lonstanding history that their are some babies that they don't take .So i would say that some Wildlings might be endulging it and we may have to look at White tree.

My position is that leaving male babies out in the snow is not new. Someone fetching them is what is new. Heck, it's even possible that Addicted to Sinkholes agrees with the second statement. He just disagrees with me (and many others) about who precisely is doing the fetching (Loyal Order of Antlered Men).

A fair statement.

[Voice]

Have you read Redriver's Winter Fell theory? It's one of the best theories on the forum. The basic premise that there is a large storm swirling about the North, centered on Winterfell, like a giant hurricane, due to the removal of the Stark's from there. The storm finally arrives at the Wall from the south during the Ides of Marsh. It certainly subconsciously inspired my theory about the contents of the book in Harrenhal that Roose Bolton burned.

The problem that I have with Long Night 2.0 is that we don't have enough time to get to the really bad bits in two books. Sure, there are Others, the Army of the Damned, starving smallfolk, and doomed wildlings, but there really isn't time in two books for the Long Night to really get to the southern parts of Westeros without dooming everything north of the Neck first (where much of the action is happening). Basically, for us to see Others in the Riverlands, most of the North will have succumbed first to their forces, including Stannis, Asha, Theon, Mance Rayder, Wyman Manderly, Dolorous Edd, and many other great characters. I just can't believe that Martin is going to put most everyone north of the Neck through a hasty apocalypse just to see White Walkers hit King's Landing. Besides, we know that Cersei must first fulfill her destiny to burn that mo'fo' down to the ground.

If, however, there was more pages, such as my suggestion of eleven books and alienarea's suggestion of thirteen, then sure, we can see the Long Night 2.0 in all its continent consuming glory.

It only took him one book to establish the Long Night 1.0, kill the King, kill the main protagonist, and wake dragons from stone that hadn't been seen on planetos in a hundred years.

[Voice]

It's not clear whether or not Osha's comments actually confirm that the Others are a standard feature north of the Wall. The "we remember" and lineage of mothers lines could just as easily be interpreted as the Free Folk knowing deeper truths about the Others, passed down through the oral tradition, with the Others themselves not having been seen in a long time. Thus, she's come south because the Others are back, and she knows through her mother the implications of their return.

Furthermore, there's her comment about how the Old Gods are the only gods beyond the Wall. Does this mean that what's happening at Craster's Keep is strange and singular, his notion of "Cold Gods" being purely his own, or are the Cold Gods and Old Gods interrelated?

The latter is certainly possible, yet Osha also laments that Robb did not listen to her warnings of the cold winds rising, and says that the Old Gods won't help him in the south, as they have no power there. Osha believes Robb should be marching his army north, so if the Others are a creation of the Old Gods, why would Osha believe that they would lend Robb their power against their own creation?

The full context of her conversation, I believe, can be just as supportive for the idea that what's happening at Craster's Keep is a recent development, and not some sacred, long-maintained element of Free Folk culture--especially if theories about Craster's crow father being a Stark turn out to be correct.

Just so, and her admonitions fall in line with Jon's "the Wall is where we stop them" speech. Much has been forgotten, but the North Remembers, and the wildlings never had the Andal influence/scepticism like House Stark undoubtedly experienced over the generations. Osha is pointing out that rather than 'shrug the old tales off as superstition,' the Free Folk chose to believe in their veracity.

[Black Crow]

She did a Gilly but unlike Gilly she and the babe was chased off.The watch for a longtime had been declining so why not take the babe and raise him like they did with Mance.Its practically the same thing with the Rangers of the current watch ignoring Craster's throw away.So it seems their is a lonstanding history that their are some babies that they don't take .So i would say that some Wildlings might be endulging it and we may have to look at White tree.

The rangers didn't ignore Craster's "throw away". Mormont told Jon that they knew what was going on and would gladly take the boys to raise them as rangers, but that Craster was insistent on giving them to his gods.

[Black Crow]

Those are possible candidates for some Starks on the Wall. Never underestimate some Snows being sent there as well. Deaddard is probably unusual for a Stark lord in that he never fooled around with women not named Lady Stark. Remember, his plans for Brandon was to be a leal bannerman for Robb Stark, holding down a holdfast somewhere for his brother. No mention was made about sending Bran or Rickon to the Wall. They had some spare Snow around for that job. In fact, some people have detected some palpable relief on the part of the Stark parents when Jon Snow volunteered to serve in the Night's Watch. No one threw themselves in front of his horse although I seem to recall some talk about "thinking hard before making such a momentous decision" sort of nonsense from Deaddard before the rest pulled out their hankerchiefs and waved good-bye.

I can see it back in the castle. "Thank the gods he's finally gone." "I thought that moody goth kid would never leave." "Eating us out of sustenance, he was." "Let's go see if he left us anything in his room."

I think that a lot of this can be put down to the Arryn and Tully influence. Given the rather obvious lack of other Starks I've always thought it odd that Bran should be assured that he would grow up to have a castle of his own and be one of Robb's bannermen. Clearly his mother would never allow her precious Bran to go to the Wall and I suspect that this also dovetails with that notion of re-populating the Gift, which sounds like the sort of enlightenment that might originate in the sainted Lord Arryn's teaching. In other words I think that "promise" to Bran was a departure from family tradition.

[redrose]

Fair enough, but there is snow falling in King's Landing as we speak. And there's this:

"Have you ever felt such cold?"

This sounds a lot like the prologue, but it's from Ser Harys Swift in the epilogue of ADWD, speaking to Kevan Lannister and Pycelle. These are not young men ignorant of normal winter winds...

It sounds like southron softies talking about their first taste of winter in 15 years or so to me. The world book tells us that after the false spring Blackwater bay began to freeze and Aerys ordered the pyromancers to drive winter off with their magics. It's just started snowing in Kings Landing at the end of DoD, so I would be reluctant to say that the long night has arrived.

Compare that to the conditions centred around Winterfell, where the snow drifts are 20 feet and walkways need to be cut through the snow in the courtyard in order for people to move about and I see a huge difference in conditions. There is an excellent thread on the snow storms being centred around winterfell started by Redriver which is well worth a read. ( sorry can't find the link but hopefully somebody else can help there as I wouldn't mind reading it again also)

[redrose]

Have you read Redriver's Winter Fell theory? It's one of the best theories on the forum. The basic premise that there is a large storm swirling about the North, centered on Winterfell, like a giant hurricane, due to the removal of the Stark's from there. The storm finally arrives at the Wall from the south during the Ides of Marsh. It certainly subconsciously inspired my theory about the contents of the book in Harrenhal that Roose Bolton burned.

The problem that I have with Long Night 2.0 is that we don't have enough time to get to the really bad bits in two books. Sure, there are Others, the Army of the Damned, starving smallfolk, and doomed wildlings, but there really isn't time in two books for the Long Night to really get to the southern parts of Westeros without dooming everything north of the Neck first (where much of the action is happening). Basically, for us to see Others in the Riverlands, most of the North will have succumbed first to their forces, including Stannis, Asha, Theon, Mance Rayder, Wyman Manderly, Dolorous Edd, and many other great characters. I just can't believe that Martin is going to put most everyone north of the Neck through a hasty apocalypse just to see White Walkers hit King's Landing. Besides, we know that Cersei must first fulfill her destiny to burn that mo'fo' down to the ground.

If, however, there was more pages, such as my suggestion of eleven books and alienarea's suggestion of thirteen, then sure, we can see the Long Night 2.0 in all its continent consuming glory.

^ I agree. Fear is for the long night where the sun hides its face for a generation as old Nan would say. We ain't getting a generation long night in 2 books. The only way I can see it being resolved in 2 books is if somebody figures out how the original long night was defeated and my money's on the slayer at the citadel. The bitter sweet being it won't be good for his bestie!

[SerTarod]

I can see it back in the castle. "Thank the gods he's finally gone." "I thought that moody goth kid would never leave." "Eating us out of sustenance, he was." "Let's go see if he left us anything in his room."

Gosh. I hope its a Harp!

[King Tyrion XX]

Normal Winter has arrived in Westeros according to the citadel as of the end of DoD. The conditions associated with the original long night have also arrived but they are centred around the seat of the Kings of winter and not further north as you would expect.

That reminds me has Redriver been around? Don't remember seeing his name lately.

[King Tyrion XX]

Interesting question! It certainly appears as though we are at the beginning of what could well end up being a second Long Night. Of course, I would argue that the main reason we think this is b/c the Others are back, and they are traditionally associated with the LN. If we leave them out, it's just the start of any winter. While the storm over WF seems extreme, we know from Stannis' mountain clans that snows of this intensity are not that unusual for the North in winter, and the clansmen have no trouble getting around on their hardy little horses. The main reason this winter seems so bad already is that we have all these southerners in the North, who don't know how to deal with it.

It seems that the only characters convinced a LN is coming are the believers in R'hllor. Everyone else just seems to think it's the start of winter (which of course doesn't mean half of Westeros won't starve over the next year or three, after burning all their crops in the fall).

Then again, the 3EC tells Bran he must live because 'winter is coming.' So yes, for the record, I do believe we are about to experience LN#2.

Good Ser I give you Redriver:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81078-winter-fell/

[Summer Is Coming!]

Speaking of Craster's father, I took a quick glance at the Stark family tree in the WB to see if there were any unmarried male Starks that might roughly fit the timeline, and I'm seeing two possibilities: the sons of Artos the Implacable, Brandon and Benjen. Neither has their marriages, if any, noted, yet both are implicated to have had at least one child/issue.

Relative to the rest of the family tree, this is actually a very strange piece of information for it to have included, and may implicate that both bore bastards. For reference, Artos Stark was a third son, and never a lord of Winterfell, so his sons would have been well out of the line of succession, which makes them very likely candidates for the Wall.

It's very possible, and if this is true then we might see any of these three Starks as boys or young men in the next Dunk and Egg story at or near Winterfell. We already "met" Bloodraven and an infant Walder Frey in the third story, so other characters who are still alive or who are the parents of characters within the main ASOIAF narrative may keep popping up. It's also interesting that Artos's older brother who becomes a Lord of Wintefell marries a Blackwood.

[Amoracchius]

I agree that it's a pretty vast stretch. There's nothing really linking the Cleganes to Dunk, beyond their size and the Sandor/Brienne comparison of knights without an order, but it would be interesting to see how deep that link goes.

I think there's a far deal more than that connecting Dunk and the Cleganes.

• The Hedge Knight opens with Dunk digging a grave for Ser Arlan and the Sworn Sword similarly has an extended passage about Dunk burying his horse in the sands of Dorne. Compare that with Sandor's last appearance in AFFC as the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle.

• Sandor was supposedly the first member of the Kingsguard who wasn't an anointed knight, but we know that the first time that happened in truth was with Dunk.

• Similarly, Gregor's current situation as "Robert Strong," who is a member of the Kingsguard but, one could argue, isn't really a knight because he isn't really alive.

• Going back to Sandor, just as Dunk's traveled with Egg, a prince in disguise, Sandor traveled with Arya, a princess in disguise.

There's probably even more, that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.