Borgia: Faith and Fear

[Bluebeard]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1736341/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

This one, not the one with Jeremy Irons (which quite frankly I find a poor tv series)

I must say that this one is probably one of the best shows I've seen. I rank it to be even better than Game of Thrones, The Tudors or HBO's Rome to stick to similar stuff.

The third and final season is exceptional, I love how they portrayed the rise and fall of an extremely ambitious and ruthless character such as Cesare Borgia, and the actor who plays him is great.

http://www.exurbe.com/?p=2176

A nice quote from that article to highlight one of the main differences between Borgia (the good one) vs The Borgias (the crappy one with Jeremy Irons):

These are just two examples, but typify the two series. The Borgias toned it down: consistently throughout the series, everyone is simply less violent and corrupt than they actually historically, documentably were. Why would sex-&-violence Showtime tone things down? I think because they were afraid of alienating their audience with the sheer implausibility of what the Renaissance was actually like. Rome in 1492 was so corrupt, and so violent, that I think they don’t believe the audience will believe them if they go full-on. Almost all the Cardinals are taking bribes? Lots, possibly the majority of influential clerics in Rome overtly live with mistresses? Every single one of these people has committed homicide, or had goons do it? Wait, they all have goons? Even the monks have goons? It feels exaggerated. Showtime toned it down to a level that matches what the typical modern imagination might expect.

Borgia: Faith and Fear did not tone it down. A bar brawl doesn’t go from insult to heated words to slamming chairs to eventually drawing steel, it goes straight from insult to hacking off a body part. Rodrigo and Cesare don’t feel guilty about killing people, they feel guilty the first time they kill someone dishonorably. Rodrigo is not being seduced by Julia Farnese and trying to hide his shocking affair; Rodrigo and Julia live in the papal palace like a married couple, and she’s the head of his household and the partner of his political labors, and if the audience is squigged out that she’s 18 and he’s 61 then that’s a fact, not something to try to SHOCK the audience with because it’s so SHOCKING shock shock. Even in other details, Showtime kept letting modern sensibilities leak in. Showtime’s 14-year-old Lucrezia is shocked (as a modern girl would be) that her father wants her to have an arranged marriage, while B:F&F‘s 14-year-old Lucrezia is constantly demanding marriage and convinced she’s going to be an old maid if she doesn’t marry soon, but is simultaneously obviously totally not ready for adult decisions and utterly ignorant of what marriage will really mean for her. It communicates what was terrible about the Renaissance but doesn’t have anyone on-camera objecting to it, whereas Showtime seemed to feel that the modern audience needed someone to relate to who agreed with us. And, for a broad part of the modern TV-watching audience, they may well be correct. I wouldn’t be surprised if many viewers find The Borgias a lot more approachable and comfortable than its more period-feeling rival.

It's great, trust me. Keep watching until the third season, almost all scenes there are epic. Hell, I'd say it's worth watching just to see Cesare Borgia intimidate his own deserting army shouting to them all the atrocities and murders he commited in his life, then asking them if they can expect any better now that they are betraying him :D

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Rodrigo Borgia as the lone American accent is simply odd though.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Better than Rome? Don't tease me like that.

[Castel]

I will shill for this show forever.

Also, Bluebeard, I'd edit your post for spoilers about the end. I mean, the history is out there but a lot of people haven't followed it.

Better than Rome? Don't tease me like that.

My first impression was "Well,I don't know about that" but honestly, it's a great show and is as good if not better than most of the historical shows out. It has nowhere near the sort of budget that Rome had-or even its Showtime equivalent had I suspect but it also doesn't suffer from having to condense an entire series plot in one season.

I definitely liked the brutality and crazy shit the article talks about. But the acting in the first few episodes is weak, it has to be said.

This one, not the one with Jeremy Irons (which quite frankly I find a poor tv series)

Comparing the two final seasons was interesting. I could barely stand The Borgias by the end there,while I couldn't stop watching Borgia.

[Myrddin]

Rodrigo Borgia as the lone American accent is simply odd though.

It took me a while to get past his accent, but it was well worth the effort.

I've only seen season 1 so far, but no, it's not better than Rome. ;)

[BormonReborn]

I still have to watch the last few episodes, but I loved this show.

My only knock, is that I felt the last season was rushed. A year passed between episodes, so I felt like there was still so much story to tell.

[Castel]

It took me a while to get past his accent, but it was well worth the effort.

I've only seen season 1 so far, but no, it's not better than Rome. ;)

It has the advantage that it doesn't have that silly "ordinary people" gimmick that was really hit and miss and often seemed to undermine the whole point of having a tighter, more down-to-earth look.

[red snow]

For some reason I'd convinced myself the show wasn't in English and while reading subtitles isn't enough to stop me watching a show, it does limit when I can watch them (I never try and read subtitles when drowsy/eating).

Fontana's "Oz" should have been enough to get me to give it a try.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

It took me a while to get past his accent, but it was well worth the effort.

I've only seen season 1 so far, but no, it's not better than Rome. ;)

It still strike me as odd, but I've been impressed with it. Season 1 of Borgia is at least on par with Season 2 of Rome.

[Castel]

It still strike me as odd, but I've been impressed with it. Season 1 of Borgia is at least on par with Season 2 of Rome.

How far in are you?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

How far in are you?

Season 1, episode 9. King Charles and the French marching towards Rome. I kinda like the Cesare from The Borigas better, but it's possible that he was portrayed as too competent to possibly fail in the future. Hopefully Borgia will delve more into Cesare and Lucrezia's relationship as the plot thickens. That was also a strength of the The Borgias; there was a greater since of kinship (and possibly more) from the start between the two Borgia siblings.

[Castel]

Season 1, episode 9. King Charles and the French marching towards Rome. I kinda like the Cesare from The Borigas better, but it's possible that he was portrayed as too competent to possibly fail in the future. Hopefully Borgia will delve more into Cesare and Lucrezia's relationship as the plot thickens. That was also a strength of the The Borgias; there was a greater since of kinship (and possibly more) from the start between the two Borgia siblings.

Showtime!Cesare is a more dynamic character from the beginning. IIRC their ages were switched around too. It takes Borgia quite a while to get there.

He really comes into his own later though. The comparison I've used is that The Borgias Cesare is basically an extremely competent gangster.When you begin to feel that he can't lose the whole thing falls a bit flat (perhaps unless it involves Lucrezia in some way) . This Cesare is...stranger. I'm not really sure how to put it beyond that. It's all fun because it's this particular person with his own unique character.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

I believe you. The actors in Borgia are definitely more age-appropriate. My current rationalization of Rodrigo Borgia's American accent is that it highlights how much of an outsider his character is amidst people who clearly do not want him there.

Cardinal Alessandro Farnese (aka future Pope Paul III) is probably my favorite character in Borgia. It's fairly easy to see how they are also hinting that he "plays the game" of the Curia better than Cesare. Just as Cesare exists almost as "who Rodrigo wants Juan to be," Alessandro seems depicted as "who Rodrigo wants Cesare to be." He's not as rash as Cesare, and actually puts forethought into what he does.

I also think that Borgia's lower production value enhances, ironically enough, the dreariness of the late Middle Ages/Renaissance period, especially the low quality of urban life and squalor.

[Castel]

I believe you. The actors in Borgia are definitely more age-appropriate. My current rationalization of Rodrigo Borgia's American accent is that it highlights how much of an outsider his character is amidst people who clearly do not want him there.

If we're going to be generous we can say that he's not even the same, truly, as his children. They're all Spanish scum to the Italians but they were raised in Italy iirc, and can't and don't have the same perspective as him, despite all the shared hate.

But why should we be that generous? :laugh:

Cardinal Alessandro Farnese (aka future Pope Paul III) is probably my favorite character in Borgia. It's fairly easy to see how they are also hinting that he "plays the game" of the Curia better than Cesare. Just as Cesare exists almost as "who Rodrigo wants Juan to be," Alessandro seems depicted as "who Rodrigo wants Cesare to be." He's not as rash as Cesare, and actually puts forethought into what he does.

I also think that Borgia's lower production value enhances, ironically enough, the dreariness of the late Middle Ages/Renaissance period, especially the low quality of urban life and squalor.

He's also not an asshole :). Great point on him lacking some of the insanity of the Borgia while still playing the game too.

Both Alessandro and his sister are interesting in their own right because they're forced to play the game in a different way by virtue of their position. But they still play (especially her)

I did enjoy Giulia's relationship with Rodrigo. Despite it looking like a great-uncle has picked up a college student she holds her own, but the dynamics of the relationship, what it means to be the mistress of the Pope, is never get lost (*cough* Shae). I'm not quite sure what to say beyond that at this point in the show except that it's interesting to watch the mix of mutual respect and love, self-serving manoeuvring and power plays all wrapped in the hilariously-hypocritical-but-common relationship.

[Zorral]

Well, this version at least acknowledges that Cesare's infected with syphilis and that he may always have been more than a bit mad.

But as there got to be less of Lucrezia, and Rodrigo's no longer there, I have gotten bogged down in the third season and haven't picked up again in weeks.

I had like the first season of Borgia very much. The second season was quite good too. But the third didn't live up to the storytelling involvement of the first two seasons. Which may be partly because the third season was a netflix production?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

I think my favorite bit of Boriga S1E9 was Cesare's "You have a mother, Briçonnet? So you know why you must die."

[Castel]

Well, this version at least acknowledges that Cesare's infected with syphilis and that he may always have been more than a bit mad.

But as there got to be less of Lucrezia, and Rodrigo's no longer there, I have gotten bogged down in the third season and haven't picked up again in weeks.

I had like the first season of Borgia very much. The second season was quite good too. But the third didn't live up to the storytelling involvement of the first two seasons. Which may be partly because the third season was a netflix production?

Part of it is because they're committed to the entire story I think. I suspect that part of the lag is caused by the fact that a different -fictional-show might have simply just faded to black after a certain set of events (which were great on their own) because it would be an acceptable ending.

But the show doesn't do that, it goes on. And, since we know it's the final season and the clock is ticking it can all fall a bit flat, especially if the history is known to you.

[Campzeh]

I hate shows/movies with strong accents. Either do it in italian or do it in english, dont do both. Its not like im sitting at home going "aha, i guess they arent americans in Italy as ive been lead to believe, just listen

to that thick accent there, at last i truly see".

[Bluebeard]

I think my favourite season is the third, mainly because it has this apocalyptic and epic atmosphere.

As for a spoiler concerning third season...

I loved the way Giuliano della Rovere lies to Cesare about HIM being his father to become the new Pope. It literally fucked his mind completely. It was such an unbelievable lie but Cesare wanted to believe it, and so it worked. Brilliant.

[ArabellaVidal]

I think my favourite season is the third, mainly because it has this apocalyptic and epic atmosphere.

 

 

 

As for a spoiler concerning third season...

 

 

 

 

 

Hidden Content

 

I just recently binge-watched this show. I watched the first episode just to see how it would go because I was bored and was immediately hooked. John Doman is really good, as is Isolda Dychauk but the true star was Mark Ryder's performance as Cesare Borgia. Possibly the most compelling Cesare on small or big screen. Writing for these portrayals deserves credit, and the final season is brilliant particularly because as viewers we are aware it's going to end in tragedy.(My throat was clogged with emotion during most of the final episodes.) Also I don't care what people say about the Showtime series, this version with it's more balanced portrayal of the myth vs reality of Lucrezia and Cesare's relationship was better viewing.

I didn't really mind the differing accents, even though normally such things seriously impede my enjoyment of shows like this and partly I think it's because of the great performances. John Doman's American accent simply seems to highlight his outsider status in the eyes of the cardinals.

As for your spoiler, that seriously screwed with my mind as well. Just the impact of that one scene was seriously mind-blowing. Also the final scene ("In the beginning...") left me annoyed and extremely happy as well.