R+L=J v.128

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I actually agree with all of this. Which is why I think she's TSTMTW, because no one has her pegged as that. And Jon as AAR/TPTWP because he's not even on Melisandre's radar even when she's getting a shit ton of visions about him.

I can actually see that. Then again, I don't see anything "good" about the Stallion (it's a horse literally fucking the planet).

[sj4iy]

I can actually see that. Then again, I don't see anything "good" about the Stallion (it's a horse literally fucking the planet).

Well, she'll unite the Dothraki and take them to the ends of the earth- which just happens to be where they are DOING INTERESTING THINGS, UNLIKE ESSOS.

Sorry, it's just something I feel strongly about. If she has to fuck the planet to get the fuck off of Essos and into the main fucking story already, then I'm willing to accept that.

[IceFire125]

The claimers of...

Dany:

Benerro

Aemon

Stannis:

Mel

Rhaegar:

Rhaegar

Aemon

Aegon (the baby):

Rhaegar

A fool's hope, AAR/TPTWP do not exist:

Jon

“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

Jon had heard all this before. “Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Dragonstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm’s End, like his brothers.” He frowned.

“Your ships are lost. All of them. Not a man shall return. I have seen that in my fires.”

“Your fires have been known to lie.”

“I have made mistakes, I have admitted as much, but—”

“A grey girl on a dying horse (true-Alys). Daggers in the dark (true-Bowen & Wick). A promised prince, born in smoke and salt (true?). It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady.

“All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope.”

“A fool’s hope.” Jon turned and left her.

**You know nothing, Jon Snow

Surely the plot is very unpredictable despite all the prophecies you give to help us...

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?m=1

[BearQueen87]

The claimers of...

[snip for length]

Nice layout. Just a quick thing: Aemon once believed Rhaegar was TPTWP too, so he should go under the Rheagar heading.

[F The King]

I never got a satisfactory answer last thread, so I'll put this here again:

It doesn't make sense to me that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna at the Tower. He randomly brought back polygamy? Why? It's well-documented that the people Westeros were very seriously against polygamy (as evidenced by Aenys exiling Maegor when he took a second wife.) But even when people talk about "Targaryen polygamy", it wasn't like every Targ practiced it. Only one two Targ kings practiced it. (Aegon I and Maegor)

GRRM has made conflicting statements on polygamy, but here is the most recent statement on the subject of Targaryen polygamy. Basically, the Westerosi are uncool with it.

Plus, it would piss the Martells off. At least, I imagine it would have.

The reason I'm bothering to challenge this is because I feel like Rhaegar deciding to bring back a centuries-old practice would be pointless and wouldn't happen unless GRRM had to connect it to Jon, since he'd be a bastard otherwise. It just feels lazy and last-minute to me. Like, oh, he's still a bastard...NO WAIT, LOOK, LYANNA'S SKELETON HAS A WEDDING RING! Like, if I read that in TWOW my eyes will roll out of my head,

[BearQueen87]

I never got a satisfactory answer last thread, so I'll put this here again:

It doesn't make sense to me that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna at the Tower. He randomly brought back polygamy? Why? It's well-documented that the people Westeros were very seriously against polygamy (as evidenced by Aenys exiling Maegor when he took a second wife.) But even when people talk about "Targaryen polygamy", it wasn't like every Targ practiced it. Only one two Targ kings practiced it. (Aegon I and Maegor)

GRRM has made conflicting statements on polygamy, but here is the most recent statement on the subject of Targaryen polygamy. Basically, the Westerosi are uncool with it.

Plus, it would piss the Martells off. At least, I imagine it would have.

The reason I'm bothering to challenge this is because I feel like Rhaegar deciding to bring back a centuries-old practice would be pointless and wouldn't happen unless GRRM had to connect it to Jon, since he'd be a bastard otherwise. It just feels lazy and last-minute to me. Like, oh, he's still a bastard...NO WAIT, LOOK, LYANNA'S SKELETON HAS A WEDDING RING! Like, if I read that in TWOW my eyes will roll out of my head,

I think many of us answered you with our views. Sorry it wasn't satisfactory?

First, they didn't marry AT the Tower, IMO.

Bringing back polygamy from a cultural perspective since it was never made illegal, IMO.

It's not random. Rhaegar is an honorable guy. He's not going to "sully" Lyanna without marrying her. Ask Ned.

The Martells are....tricky? I think Elia would be expected to play referee. Whether or not it would work..who knows. But Doran would also know that Elia couldn't have any more children and the "job" of the wife is to provide many heirs cause medicine is not up to our standards and babies die. From that perspective, taking another wife for more children makes sense. But I do think the Martells are tricky. A lot of rests on our silent Elia.

ETA: you'll never read anything about a wedding ring...and I think it was planned from the start. A lot of it is in AGOT, IMO. Have you read sj4iy's list of clues?

[F The King]

I think many of us answered you with our views. Sorry it wasn't satisfactory?

First, they didn't marry AT the Tower, IMO.

Bringing back polygamy from a cultural perspective since it was never made illegal, IMO.

It's not random. Rhaegar is an honorable guy. He's not going to "sully" Lyanna without marrying her. Ask Ned.

The Martells are....tricky? I think Elia would be expected to play referee. Whether or not it would work..who knows. But Doran would also know that Elia couldn't have any more children and the "job" of the wife is to provide many heirs cause medicine is not up to our standards. From that perspective, taking another wife for more children makes sense. But I do think the Martells are tricky. A lot of rests on our silent Elia.

ETA: you'll never read anything about a wedding ring...and I think it was planned from the start. A lot of it is in AGOT, IMO. Have you read sj4iy's list of clues?

Yeah, and I responded to them and then nobody responded to me anymore.

It doesn't really matter to me where they married, it's the fact that they did marry.

From a cultural perspective? Like I said, polygamy wasn't that big of a part of the Targ culture as people think. And, yes, it was never illegal, but it was disliked to the extent of Maegor being exiled to Pentos, so...that's a big deal. As time went on in Westeros, it was clear things like polygamy and incest were a big no-no in the eyes of the people, and in particular, the Faith.

I must've missed something. What would Jon find to prove that Rhaegar married her?

[BearQueen87]

Yeah, and I responded to them and then nobody responded to me anymore.

It doesn't really matter to me where they married, it's the fact that they did marry.

From a cultural perspective? Like I said, polygamy wasn't that big of a part of the Targ culture as people think. And, yes, it was never illegal, but it was disliked to the extent of Maegor being exiled to Pentos, so...that's a big deal. As time went on in Westeros, it was clear things like polygamy and incest were a big no-no in the eyes of the people, and in particular, the Faith.

I must've missed something. What would Jon find to prove that Rhaegar married her?

Ok. I'll try my best.

1. Well you did say "at the TOJ" so I responded to that specifically. For me: Isle of Face is the ideal location for wedding.

2. From the Westerosi cultural perspective, not Targ. It may have gone out of Targ style, but that's not to say it was ever illegal. Why not outlaw Incest at the same time if it's so distasteful to the realm? Incest stayed around right up until the end.

3. Personally, I think there is a wedding cloak in Lyanna's tomb. Also, there is a certain Howland in his floating castle who refuses to come out and play

[Kingmonkey]

I have this sneaking crackpot suspicion that AA, Lightbringer etc. are all...

myths.

Azor Azhai is a constellation, Lightbringer was a comet that crashed into Planetos' second moon on it's third pass a thousands of years ago, and it's all so ingrained in in various Planetosi cultures that people find it hard to interpret anything without drawing on those archetypal myths. TPTWP is a vision distorted by the perception of its interpreters that it must be connected to AA, and everyone's wasting an awful lot of time and effort in getting things thoroughly wrong.

No real basis for this other than it's something I can imagine GRRM doing, and the AA myths and timescales involved remind me of all those astronomical interpretations of ancient myth that were really popular around the time AGoT was written.

[BearQueen87]

I have this sneaking crackpot suspicion that AA, Lightbringer etc. are all...

myths.

Azor Azhai is a constellation, Lightbringer was a comet that crashed into Planetos' second moon on it's third pass a thousands of years ago, and it's all so ingrained in in various Planetosi cultures that people find it hard to interpret anything without drawing on those archetypal myths. TPTWP is a vision distorted by the perception of its interpreters that it must be connected to AA, and everyone's wasting an awful lot of time and effort in getting things thoroughly wrong.

No real basis for this other than it's something I can imagine GRRM doing, and the AA myths and timescales involved remind me of all those astronomical interpretations of ancient myth that were really popular around the time AGoT was written.

Wow. That's....clever. Like possibly totally crackpot, but incredibly clever.

[IceFire125]

I have this sneaking crackpot suspicion that AA, Lightbringer etc. are all...

myths.

Azor Azhai is a constellation, Lightbringer was a comet that crashed into Planetos' second moon on it's third pass a thousands of years ago, and it's all so ingrained in in various Planetosi cultures that people find it hard to interpret anything without drawing on those archetypal myths. TPTWP is a vision distorted by the perception of its interpreters that it must be connected to AA, and everyone's wasting an awful lot of time and effort in getting things thoroughly wrong.

No real basis for this other than it's something I can imagine GRRM doing, and the AA myths and timescales involved remind me of all those astronomical interpretations of ancient myth that were really popular around the time AGoT was written.

I believe not only Daenys the dreamer saw TPTWP in her dragon dreams/visions but others after her (maybe even Aegon or Visenya), they placed them in scrolls, the same scrolls that Rhaegar was able to get his hands on.

"There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest."

- BR to Dunk & Egg

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Question: there is any mention about what kind of voice Jon has? Rhaegar's had "iron tones".

[Alia of the knife]

This is pretty much exactly why I immediately discount anyone in the story who is actually "pegged" to a prophecy. Stannis as AA? No. Dany as AA? No. Tyrion as the valonqar? No. Margaery as the younger, more beautiful queen? No. Either that or the prophecy is "solved" correctly but will have some other subversion going on.

You can't send the message that it's all just religious perspective bullshit (which I agree that it is) and then turn around and validate said religious perspective bullshit by making it be correct. That's partly why I think that whoever "really" embodies these prophecies will never actually be identified as fulfilling them. If Jon is AA/tPtwP, no one is going to stand up and say that he is. It'll just be known given what he does. That's where GRRM blew it with Dany: If it were that obvious that she was AA, the priests and Aemon pegging her as such was superfluous. That they did drags her right into red herring territory.

Yep, sums it up for me.

[sj4iy]

Just wrote this on another thread, going to paste it here with some edits:

As far as polygamy goes, all that means is that there is precedent. Rhaegar is the crown prince, and very soon to be the king by all indications. No one is going tell him he can't have two wives. And we see that dragons aren't needed for the Targaryens to go against convention, since they practice incest despite the Faith's objections.

And we know that Rhaegar wanted another child...a 'third head of the dragon', which his wife, Elia, could not give him.

The world book gives us more precedent in that Rhaegar's grandparents ran off against their parents' wishes, in secret, and did not come back until the marriage was consummated, forcing them to accept the marriage.

Also, there's the "Pact of Ice and Fire" between the Starks and the Targaryens which was an agreement to join the two houses in marriage...and was never fulfilled. We see the vision of Rhaegar saying that he believed his son, Aegon, was TPTWP, and that his song was a 'Song of Ice and Fire'.

They would not marry at the ToJ. The Isle of Faces is the most likely place.

The KG's first and foremost duty was to guard their king. They were at a tower in the middle of nowhere, guarding a woman and her child on the orders of their dead prince while their new king, Viserys, had fled to Dragonstone with his mother. And when Ned tells them about it, they clearly already knew...yet there they were. Hightower even says "We swore a vow". Well, they didn't swear a vow to Rhaegar- they swore a vow to the king, vowing to protect their king. Rhaegar was long dead, Aerys was dead and Aegon was dead...they may have stayed on Rhaegar's order initially, but there was no reason that at least one or two of them couldn't have gone to Viserys while leaving one behind to take orders.

And Ned tells Bran that the KG were once a shining example to the world, and that the best knight he ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne. Ned wouldn't say that about a man who had refused to go to his king when his king needed him the most.

Of course, there is a also foreshadowing about Jon being trueborn...

Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes, he said. Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.

We know that Joffrey is the bastard.

There's also the quote that Craster said about Jon:

(Paraphrased)

"Bastard, eh? If a man is going to bed a woman, seems that he should wed her."

I could put the ton of foreshadowing about Jon being a king, but I think this works best:

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormonts raven muttered across the room. Corn, the bird said, and, King, and, Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

The bird is not a normal bird...and it just said "King Jon Snow" right after Jon has a dream where he is holding a flaming sword on the top of the Wall, armored in 'black ice' and fighting wights. And we know that Rhaegar, his father, was armored 'all in black' the day that he went out to fight. A prophetic dream and a bird that knows too much...a bird who told Jon how to kill the wight and fixed the election so that he would be elected LC. And we have another Targaryen who just happens to be able to warg animals and see the past, present and future.

I believe there is just too much pointing to Jon being legitimate. What does it mean? Who knows. I can't imagine that Martin would put it in there and have it mean nothing, but that's up to him. But the story makes more sense once you plug it in.

[BearQueen87]

I believe not only Daenys the dreamer saw TPTWP in her dragon dreams/visions but others after her (maybe even Aegon or Visenya), they placed them in scrolls, the same scrolls that Rhaegar was able to get his hands on.

"There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest."

- BR to Dunk & Egg

I thought the TPTWP prophecy was older than that? Or do you mean Daenys had it again, after someone had it long ago? Have many people had the dream?

[Alia of the knife]

I have this sneaking crackpot suspicion that AA, Lightbringer etc. are all...

myths.

Azor Azhai is a constellation, Lightbringer was a comet that crashed into Planetos' second moon on it's third pass a thousands of years ago, and it's all so ingrained in in various Planetosi cultures that people find it hard to interpret anything without drawing on those archetypal myths. TPTWP is a vision distorted by the perception of its interpreters that it must be connected to AA, and everyone's wasting an awful lot of time and effort in getting things thoroughly wrong.

No real basis for this other than it's something I can imagine GRRM doing, and the AA myths and timescales involved remind me of all those astronomical interpretations of ancient myth that were really popular around the time AGoT was written.

Exactly. A lot like today where every culture pretty much has a different version of the same apocalyptic myth from Ragnarok to Revelations, as well as the nutjob on the street corner with "the end is near" sign.

[F The King]

Alright, this works for me. I was in denial mostly because I didn't like any of the scenarios playing out in my head of Jon finding out Rhaegar wed Lyanna through something stupid; Howland telling him, or even a wedding cloak, would be okay with me.

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormonts raven muttered across the room. Corn, the bird said, and, King, and, Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

The bird is not a normal bird...and it just said "King Jon Snow" right after Jon has a dream where he is holding a flaming sword on the top of the Wall, armored in 'black ice' and fighting wights. And we know that Rhaegar, his father, was armored 'all in black' the day that he went out to fight. A prophetic dream and a bird that knows too much...a bird who told Jon how to kill the wight and fixed the election so that he would be elected LC. And we have another Targaryen who just happens to be able to warg animals and see the past, present and future.

Shame the bird didn't say "squawk Jon of the House Targaryen, the First of His Name, squawk King of the Andals and the First Men squawk Lord of the Seven Kingdoms squawk and Protector of the Realm....squawk."

[sj4iy]

Shame the bird didn't say "squawk Jon of the House Targaryen, the First of His Name, squawk King of the Andals and the First Men squawk Lord of the Seven Kingdoms squawk and Protector of the Realm....squawk."

Well, I'm sure it's working up to it...it had been saying "snow" and "King" for a while. At this rate, in book 15 it will be able to say "Holy shit, are you really that dense? I'm fucking TALKING TO YOU, Jon Snow! You're a fucking KING! Now give me some damn corn."

[The Twinslayer]

Alright, this works for me. I was in denial mostly because I didn't like any of the scenarios playing out in my head of Jon finding out Rhaegar wed Lyanna through something stupid; Howland telling him, or even a wedding cloak, would be okay with me.

Shame the bird didn't say "squawk Jon of the House Targaryen, the First of His Name, squawk King of the Andals and the First Men squawk Lord of the Seven Kingdoms squawk and Protector of the Realm....squawk."

Or "Jon squawk of the House Stark, squawk King in the North,squawk King of Winter." Because before that happened, this happened:

"A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he is legitimized by a royal decree...Should I die without issue, I want him [Jon] to succeed me as King in the North."

[BearQueen87]

Or "Jon squawk of the House Stark, squawk King in the North,squawk King of Winter." Because before that happened, this happened:

"A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he is legitimized by a royal decree...Should I die without issue, I want him [Jon] to succeed me as King in the North."

But why would BR care about Jon being the KitN?