Sansa will marry Jon Snow

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

He did.

See thats the thing...we dont know.

[Brav]

Thr killer blow to this theory is that Sophie Turner - the actress playing Sansa in the Show - is freakin tall for a woman, while the dwarfish guy playing Jon Snow is, well, dwarfish.

If this pairing was the end result the producers were aware of, they would pave picked a more likely looking pair, so that the hero of the story is not towered over by his wife at their long anticipated wedding.

That's my view and I'm sticking to it.

Actually on a similar point if you look at the actors playing Jon and Dany they appear to have been chosen in part to look very similar (though opposite colouring) and look good together in a romantic sense. We never see them together in the programme of course but they will look like an obvious romantic pair when they do meet.

[WeaselPie]

Thr killer blow to this theory is that Sophie Turner - the actress playing Sansa in the Show - is freakin tall for a woman, while the dwarfish guy playing Jon Snow is, well, dwarfish.

If this pairing was the end result the producers were aware of, they would pave picked a more likely looking pair, so that the hero of the story is not towered over by his wife at their long anticipated wedding.

That's my view and I'm sticking to it.

It's been reported more than a few times that Sophie grew taller as time went on... that happens with teens. As it is, she is around 5'9 and Kit's around 5'8. Hardly a freak and a dwarf.

Actually on a similar point if you look at the actors playing Jon and Dany they appear to have been chosen in part to look very similar (though opposite colouring) and look good together in a romantic sense. We never see them together in the programme of course but they will look like an obvious romantic pair when they do meet.

I don't think they were chosen because they look alike. At all.

If you want to choose people who were cast (or at least styled) to alike, that would be Jon and Meera. Their hair is a big deal in the shows. D&D made that decision, not me. Does it mean something? I don't know.

Actually, I don't think the casting means much. None of the trueborn Stark children actors look alike, only Sophie bears a passing resemblance to Michelle.

And the ages of the actors don't matter in the least when it comes to proving or disproving theories.

-

Regarding Sansa and Jon Snow, IMO RLJ is not true, so my logic or lack thereof stems from that belief. I don't care to dispute that in this thread.

If Jon were to marry, I seriously doubt it would be a non-POV character.

Certainly not Shireen. She is a child. There is no five year gap to suddenly make her a palatable age match, and no time (IMO) to weave a complicated "political" reason for their bethrothal. Stannis is MIA-ish, and there appears to be other plans for the child anyway. Not even GRRM would betroth Jon to a child, with zero possibility of their union ever coming to fruition be the end of the series.

The only non-POV possibility is Val (insert foreshadowing). But GRRM has imbued her with mystery as well as symbolism. Val and Dalla are obviously involved somehow with the Others. That fact could not be more obvious. Their role is similar to that of the Valkyrie in Valhalla... choosing who will live, who will die, and who will be resurrected as "undead warriors." GRRM made the decision to call them Val and Dalla and refer to them as princesses/queens, not me. Descendants of the Night's King and his Other wife perhaps. GRRM made the decision to tell us that the Night's King shared his seed with his Other Wife, not me.

Then we have Dany. I struggle to accept that many believe Dany and Jon will marry (Aunt/Nephew) while finding cousin-marriage distasteful... although cousin marriage is common in many houses in the series. I think Jon and Dany will have another agenda that doesn't include a fairytale romance. If there is a romance, it will end badly. For Dany.

This leaves Sansa, who, IMO is in no way related by blood to Jon Snow. Foreshadowing up the kazoo for this to happen since Book One.

Cheers.

[Annara Snow]

Regarding Sansa and Jon Snow, IMO RLJ is not true, so my logic or lack thereof stems from that belief. I don't care to dispute that in this thread.

That's really not a start that promises a substantiated argument. But carry on, let's see what your alternative is...

If Jon were to marry, I seriously doubt it would be a non-POV character.

Why? I don't get why Jon would have to marry a POV character. Care you give a single reason why that would be the case?

Then we have Dany. I struggle to accept that many believe Dany and Jon will marry (Aunt/Nephew) while finding cousin-marriage distasteful... although cousin marriage is common in many houses in the series. I think Jon and Dany will have another agenda that doesn't include a fairytale romance. If there is a romance, it will end badly. For Dany.

So Dany and Jon would be distasteful, because they're closely blood related, even though they will not have met before adulthood and they never thought of each other as family, but Sansa and Jon, who are not just closely blood related but grew up as siblings and see each other as siblings, would not be distasteful? Mkay...

And wait, now you're saying they're aunt and nephew, but you just said you think R+L=J is not true?! That seems contradictory.

This leaves Sansa, who, IMO is in no way related by blood to Jon Snow. Foreshadowing up the kazoo for this to happen since Book One.

Huh?

You have to elaborate on both of those things, since neither of those two things you said make any sense.

How can she not be related by blood to Jon?! (Not that it would make them any less brother and sister - since they grew up as brother and sister.)

What foreshadowing?!

[WeaselPie]

Sorry, I seem to have frustrated you. As I said, those are all my own opinions, but I do base them on decisions GRRM has made as an author, as well as what I perceive to be blatant textual clues. Insert IMO as necessary in the following.

Why won't Jon marry a non-POV character?

Jon is too major a character to be ultimately married off to a non-major character. Val is a possibility but only because of her ulterior motives, which GRRM has deliberately kept from us, and if there is a marriage of sorts between Jon/Val, it will only be for the purpose of uncovering this hidden plotline, and it will not end well. So it seems I contradict myself with this possibility, but not really. She is not his endgame.

Other possibilities? Shireen, not happening. Some other random woman or political match, not happening.

Of POV characters: Arya, not happening. Dany and Jon are destined to "dance" not to marry, and Dany's fate will be quite different than a happily ever after marriage.

That leaves Sansa. It's partially a process of elimination, but it's also in the cards since book one if you put aside your RLJ belief. Quite a big IF for many, I realize that.

As for the "but they believe they are siblings since they grew up together" argument, no, I don't think they were particularly close as brother/sister. Certainly not like Arya/Jon or Robb/Jon or even Robb/Theon. A markedly different relationship, which is how GRRM depicts it, not me, particularly Sansa's initial disdain for Jon as a bastard. This sets them up from the start as having an atypical and somewhat distant relationship, even as "half-siblings."

I am talking about the perception of certain relationships (Aunt/Nephew, etc.) not what is actually true.

I gave no moral opinion about Jon/Dany being related and possibly marrying, I only express my confusion that so many believe:

Jon/Dany (if Nephew/Aunt) would be just fine

and Dany/fAegon (if Nephew/Aunt) is possible

and Sansa/Sweetrobin (First Cousins) was possible for a while

and Joanna/Tywin were first cousins

and there are cousins marrying the Stark family tree

not to mention all the actual (Cersei/Jaime) incest in the novels

and the whole history of the Targaryens, including Dany's parentage

and Rhaegar's perceived plans to recreate a polygamous marriage amongst his own three children...

..all of that is either canon or possible to so many, but the possibility that Jon would marry a half-sibling (or cousin) is completely nuts?.

I simply don't understand the moral picking and choosing in a novel where Jon Snow (if he is a Targ) is almost destined to marry a close relative, by rote. Why would that be so distasteful for Jon Snow, and not for any other Targ in the novels?

But I happen to believe that Sansa is not Jon Snow's cousin. Certainly not his half-sibling, we all know that. Not related by blood in the least.

PS we happen to be communicating in a thread that has already discussed the foreshadowing. The main criticism seems to be "but they're siblings-ish!"

[Woman of War]

She's already thought that she wants to be married for herself, not her claim. This is the path I see her following. She does marry, but not an arranged marriage for her claim.

Sansa won't be married for her claim anyway in the end.

So far she believes to have a claim but she hasn't. Even if she is believed to be a widow and would be married again this claim would turn out to be worthless the moment Bran or at least Rickon show up. While Bran may be lost as heir to Winterfell I am very sure that Rickon is the one destined by Martin to be Lord there. So before the end of the books, Sansa will be free of any claim weighing her down. And she might have married as widowed heiress but she may turn out to be a lord's sister who is not even unmarried.

[Alia of the knife]

Sorry, I seem to have frustrated you. As I said, those are all my own opinions, but I do base them on decisions GRRM has made as an author, as well as what I perceive to be blatant textual clues. Insert IMO as necessary in the following.

Why won't Jon marry a non-POV character?

Jon is too major a character to be ultimately married off to a non-major character. Val is a possibility but only because of her ulterior motives, which GRRM has deliberately kept from us, and if there is a marriage of sorts between Jon/Val, it will only be for the purpose of uncovering this hidden plotline, and it will not end well. So it seems I contradict myself with this possibility, but not really. She is not his endgame.

Other possibilities? Shireen, not happening. Some other random woman or political match, not happening.

Of POV characters: Arya, not happening. Dany and Jon are destined to "dance" not to marry, and Dany's fate will be quite different than a happily ever after marriage.

That leaves Sansa. It's partially a process of elimination, but it's also in the cards since book one if you put aside your RLJ belief. Quite a big IF for many, I realize that.

As for the "but they believe they are siblings since they grew up together" argument, no, I don't think they were particularly close as brother/sister. Certainly not like Arya/Jon or Robb/Jon or even Robb/Theon. A markedly different relationship, which is how GRRM depicts it, not me, particularly Sansa's initial disdain for Jon as a bastard. This sets them up from the start as having an atypical and somewhat distant relationship, even as "half-siblings."

I am talking about the perception of certain relationships (Aunt/Nephew, etc.) not what is actually true.

I gave no moral opinion about Jon/Dany being related and possibly marrying, I only express my confusion that so many believe:

Jon/Dany (if Nephew/Aunt) would be just fine

and Dany/fAegon (if Nephew/Aunt) is possible

and Sansa/Sweetrobin (First Cousins) was possible for a while

and Joanna/Tywin were first cousins

and there are cousins marrying the Stark family tree

not to mention all the actual (Cersei/Jaime) incest in the novels

and the whole history of the Targaryens, including Dany's parentage

and Rhaegar's perceived plans to recreate a polygamous marriage amongst his own three children...

..all of that is either canon or possible to so many, but the possibility that Jon would marry a half-sibling (or cousin) is completely nuts?.

I simply don't understand the moral picking and choosing in a novel where Jon Snow (if he is a Targ) is almost destined to marry a close relative, by rote. Why would that be so distasteful for Jon Snow, and not for any other Targ in the novels?

But I happen to believe that Sansa is not Jon Snow's cousin. Certainly not his half-sibling, we all know that. Not related by blood in the least.

PS we happen to be communicating in a thread that has already discussed the foreshadowing. The main criticism seems to be "but they're siblings-ish!"

To your point, Rickard married his first cousin Lyarra Stark, daughter of his uncle, "the wondering wolf."

I do happen to believe that R+l=J, but nonetheless, such a union, especially if one goes by aristocratic, historical parallels is not outside the bounds of possibility, especially for political reasons if Jon ever does take the IT.

Historically, many men ended up marrying the daughter of the House they were fostered in. They would be fosterd from the time of seven and its very likely they would look upon their foster family daughter as a "sister," as they would certainly be raised in close quarters.

Again, historical examples of avunculate marriages, (niece/Unclel, nephew/aunt), where they shared 25% of genetic material than the 12% of first cousins.

- King Leonidas of Sparta and his niece, Queen Gorgo

- Claudius and Aggripina the Younger

- Prince Tran Hung Dao of Vietnam and his aunt, Princess Thien Thanh

- Joanna of Naples and her nephew King Ferdinand II

- Phillip of Spain and his niece, Anna of Austria

- Infanta Benedita and her nephew, Jose' Prince of Brazil

- King Kamehameha the Great of Hawaii and his niece Queen Keopulani

[WeaselPie]

To your point, Rickard married his first cousin Lyarra Stark, daughter of his uncle, "the wondering wolf."

I do happen to believe that R+l=J, but nonetheless, such a union, especially if one goes by aristocratic, historical parallels is not outside the bounds of possibility, especially for political reasons if Jon ever does take the IT.

Historically, many men ended up marrying the daughter of the House they were fostered in. They would be fosterd from the time of seven and its very likely they would look upon their foster family daughter as a "sister," as they would certainly be raised in close quarters.

Again, historical examples of avunculate marriages, (niece/Unclel, nephew/aunt), where they shared 25% of genetic material than the 12% of first cousins.

- King Leonidas of Sparta and his niece, Queen Gorgo

- Claudius and Aggripina the Younger

- Prince Tran Hung Dao of Vietnam and his aunt, Princess Thien Thanh

- Joanna of Naples and her nephew King Ferdinand II

- Phillip of Spain and his niece, Anna of Austria

- Infanta Benedita and her nephew, Jose' Prince of Brazil

- King Kamehameha the Great of Hawaii and his niece Queen Keopulani

Well stated. Very good examples from actual history, and we know GRRM pushes the boundaries even further in the books.

Even if RLJ is true, part of that theory is that Rhaegar was trying to recreate Aegon/Rhaenys/Visenya, three siblings who were in a polygamous marriage. If one believes that, then Rhaegar had the same plans for his own childen, and Jon himself was conceived as part of this plan, and destined to marry his "sisters."

So, the general belief seems to be that if Jon marries a full-sibling, a half-sibling, an aunt, or several at once, that would be just fine because he is a Targaryen. It's normal for them. No problem, foreshadowed and expected.

Reading through this thread and others, it seems Jon can marry another Targ or two, the relationship is no problem.... in fact he can marry anyone he wants for political or historical reasons... as long as it's not Sansa!

And as a non RLJ person, I actually think it's a perfect way for GRRM to turn the entire story on it's arse.

[LongRider]

Sansa won't be married for her claim anyway in the end.

So far she believes to have a claim but she hasn't. Even if she is believed to be a widow and would be married again this claim would turn out to be worthless the moment Bran or at least Rickon show up. While Bran may be lost as heir to Winterfell I am very sure that Rickon is the one destined by Martin to be Lord there. So before the end of the books, Sansa will be free of any claim weighing her down. And she might have married as widowed heiress but she may turn out to be a lord's sister who is not even unmarried.

If Bran or Rickon show up then Sansa's claim to WF would change, that's true. However, the idea of marrying her as a political tool to create an alliance of WF and /KL, Casterly Rock, Highgarden ect., is still marrying her for her political ties to WF which is what Sansa does not want.

[WeaselPie]

If Bran or Rickon show up then Sansa's claim to WF would change, that's true. However, the idea of marrying her as a political tool to create an alliance of WF and /KL, Casterly Rock, Highgarden ect., is still marrying her for her political ties to WF which is what Sansa does not want.

And when Robb's will is disclosed, all bets are off.

ETA Jon as heir to Winterfell, marries Sansa, and Sansa gets her dream of Winterfell anyway, even after it was used as a tool to manipulate her and control her destiny, and then it was wrenched away from her because of Robb's will and the possible reappearance of Rickon...

I like it.

[Newstar]

The idea that GRRM would be horrified at the notion of a major endgame cousin/cousin-raised-as-siblings marriage, when his worldbuilding has put at its centre a ruling dynasty with a tradition of sibling/sibling marriage and when he has devoted many, many words to the ins and outs of their family history, including their many incestuous marriages and other incestuous liaisons, is pretty silly. What author do you think you've been reading, exactly? The pearl-clutching on this thread over how GRRM would nevah evah do such a thing is hilarious, particularly now that GRRM has also let us know that the Stark family tree has cousin/cousin and even uncle/niece marriages.

...If anything, the Stark family history suggests that GRRM seems to be tipping his hand that he intends to do such a thing. Heck, Sansa's grandparents (and Jon's grandparents too, on his mother's side) were first cousins. Much has been made of Sansa hewing closer to her northern roots and home in recent books, and, well, she couldn't hew much closer than marrying Jon.

And for those who would view that as "celebrating" incestuous arranged marriage, as someone claimed upthread, remember that depiction is not the same as endorsement, as is amply clear in a series full of rape, murder, torture, and sexual abuse; else we'd all be calling the cops on GRRM's ass. If you're looking for GRRM to be making moral statements with his books about the rightness or wrongness of this or that type of marriage and evaluating his potential endgame on the basis of what it supposedly "celebrates" by what it depicts, you're reading the wrong damned books. As I said, considering all the energy GRRM has devoted to chronicling the histories of the Targs and their many, many incestuous marriages, to claim that he would have some sort of aversion to depicting a mere cousin/cousin marriage as an endgame pairing for two of his major characters--one of whom is a Targ--is particularly rich.

Don't get me wrong, there are very good reasons as to why Jon/Sansa is unlikely--there's a good chance Jon will die if he isn't dead already, there's a good chance Sansa will die, Jon is bound by celibacy vows, etc. etc.--but "GRRM would NEVAH!" is not one of them.

As to the argument that Sansa would never wish to be married as she's the heir to Winterfell and doesn't wish to be married for her claim, that's not likely to be an issue for long. Bran and Rickon are still alive, and Robb's will disinheriting her is floating around. By the time the issue rolls around again, she'll have no fear of being married for her claim, since she'll no longer be the believed or acknowledged heir.

[OldGimletEye]

It seems to me that every time the Jon and Sansa marriage thing comes up, a rationale, in support thereof, is that it would be a politically advantageous match. But if Jon does the Aragorn thing and becomes king, then why would marrying Sansa be that beneficial to him politically? Jon is already culturally a northerner and certainly Rickon or Bran (or whatever Stark kid got Winterfell) would back his claim for the throne. Accordingly, it would seem to me that actually it would be more advantageous, politically, for Jon to marry a southerner, if he does in fact become King of Westeros.

Am I missing something here? Somebody explain this to me kindergarten style.

Now, I'll admit that if Jon did in fact become King of The North, or Lord of Winterfell, or whatever, a marriage to Sansa would have some political advantages. But, I do not think Jon would hose his siblings and claim the North for himself. I'd expect at least one of the Stark kids to survive the series.

[Veltigar]

It seems to me that every time the Jon and Sansa marriage thing comes up, a rationale, in support thereof, is that it would be a politically advantageous match. But if Jon does the Aragorn thing and becomes king, then why would marrying Sansa be that beneficial to him politically? Jon is already culturally a northerner and certainly Rickon or Bran (or whatever Stark kid got Winterfell) would back his claim for the throne.

I agree. Politically speaking I think Dany is a much more likely match.

[Woman of War]

If Bran or Rickon show up then Sansa's claim to WF would change, that's true. However, the idea of marrying her as a political tool to create an alliance of WF and /KL, Casterly Rock, Highgarden ect., is still marrying her for her political ties to WF which is what Sansa does not want.

And Jon might not want Sansa as lover either. Cat was not in love with Ned and Ned wasn't with Cat.

And yet they made the conscious decision to get married. So might Sansa and Jon. You should not assume that only Sansa would have to give up some dreams , the guy she marries or stays married to might not really fancy her either and yet the parties concerned decide - they decide and and not some family member "convinces" i.e. forces them - that there are reasons beyond their personal wellbeing to enter a marriage alliance like that. Apart from that I do not see why I should pity the woman more than the man for entering an arranged marriage she has chosen herself.

But yes, I can imagine that marrying a woman from the south might be more advantageous for Juon if , IF, he should ever sit the Iron Throne.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

It seems to me that every time the Jon and Sansa marriage thing comes up, a rationale, in support thereof, is that it would be a politically advantageous match. But if Jon does the Aragorn thing and becomes king, then why would marrying Sansa be that beneficial to him politically? Jon is already culturally a northerner and certainly Rickon or Bran (or whatever Stark kid got Winterfell) would back his claim for the throne. Accordingly, it would seem to me that actually it would be more advantageous, politically, for Jon to marry a southerner, if he does in fact become King of Westeros.

Am I missing something here? Somebody explain this to me kindergarten style.

Now, I'll admit that if Jon did in fact become King of The North, or Lord of Winterfell, or whatever, a marriage to Sansa would have some political advantages. But, I do not think Jon would hose his siblings and claim the North for himself. I'd expect at least one of Stark kids to survive the series.

This. The Jon/Sansa supporters never explain why such a match makes sense in the story GRRM is telling right now. And if there is no sign of it in TWoW, they need to drop it.

[LongRider]

And Jon might not want Sansa as lover either. Cat was not in love with Ned and Ned wasn't with Cat.

And yet they made the conscious decision to get married. So might Sansa and Jon. You should not assume that only Sansa would have to give up some dreams , the guy she marries or stays married to might not really fancy her either and yet the parties concerned decide - they decide and and not some family member "convinces" i.e. forces them - that there are reasons beyond their personal wellbeing to enter a marriage alliance like that. Apart from that I do not see why I should pity the woman more than the man for entering an arranged marriage she has chosen herself.

But yes, I can imagine that marrying a woman from the south might be more advantageous for Juon if , IF, he should ever sit the Iron Throne.

No, Cat was wed to Ned because Brandon had been killed and custom demanded his betrothed marry his brother. Cat had no say.

Sansa suddenly cheerfully decides to stay married to the man she was forced to marry at swordpoint and who family killed hers? Don't bet on it.

[LongRider]

This. The Jon/Sansa supporters never explain why such a match makes sense in the story GRRM is telling right now. ~~~snip~~~

:agree:

[DarkSister1001]

This. The Jon/Sansa supporters never explain why such a match makes sense in the story GRRM is telling right now. And if there is no sign of it in TWoW, they need to drop it.

"This is NOT King's Landing." - Stannis :)

[The Ned's Little Girl]

It seems to me that every time the Jon and Sansa marriage thing comes up, a rationale, in support thereof, is that it would be a politically advantageous match. But if Jon does the Aragorn thing and becomes king, then why would marrying Sansa be that beneficial to him politically?

Besides, they're family. They're already allies. They don't need to marry each other to be political allies.

[WeaselPie]

Why does a Sansa/Jon match have to be political?