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Sansa will marry Jon Snow


Taenqyrhae

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Grrm wrote a lot of romances and romance in this story. I don't agree that every romance will crash and burn and the lovers will all suffer horribly and love stinks! It's a bitch man! I find the idea that all will end in ashes to be a very dark view of romance in general and not necessarily what I've been reading in ASOIAF.

One could just as easily point out that traveling in the Riverlands is doomed and list all the people who have died, suffered separations, seen their friends and family members die. Love during wartime is obviously tough.

Is Grrm so cruel that he'll kill every love affair with a such bitter endings for all? I'm not convinced of that. His planned title for his last book; A Dream of Spring is a romantic title and gives me as sense of hope that all good human feelings won't be lost.

It seems some readers have sour grapes for the romances he's written in the story. Many are still in progress, we'll just have to see where they go.

Yes to all of that. GRRM is clearly writing romances. He is writing two Beauty and the Beast love stories in ASOIAF, Sansa/Sandor and Jaime/Brienne. And he has acknowledged this in both cases, but it's very clear from the writing of the stories as well, there are lines from the fairy tale, and very direct symbolism and plot lines. The Sansa/Sandor scene he wrote was filmed like La Belle et la Bete, his favorite version of Beauty and the Beast (he bought a theater named after Jean Cocteau, the man who made the film). He's also commented on other romances he has written in ASOIAF, as well.

He chose pictures of both Beauty and the Beast stories for his website:

Sansa/Sandor:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/grrm_fromfans/san-san-str/

Jaime/Brienne:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/grrm_fromfans/jaime-with-brienne/

GRRM:

"Sexuality, once again, I think it's an important driving force in life. It motivates most of the things we do, and it's one of the root things that defines who we are. And yet you find it strangely missing from fantasy, even from some very good fantasy. I admire J.R.R. Tolkien vastly, I think all modern fantasy derives from Tolkien, and Lord of the Rings is one of the great works of this century. Nonetheless, it does have flaws, and I think its almost complete absence of women, and of anything even approaching sex and/or romantic love -- it reflects its time and its place, but it's certainly not something I wanted to do."

Another, GRRM:

"Life is very full of sex, or should be. As much as I admire Tolkien -- and I do, he was a giant of fantasy and a giant of literature, and I think he wrote a great book that will be read for many years -- you do have to wonder where all those Hobbits came from, since you can't imagine Hobbits having sex, can you? Well, sex is an important part of who we are. It drives us, it motivates us, it makes us do sometimes very noble things and it makes us do sometimes incredibly stupid things. Leave it out, and you've got an incomplete world...

"I think sex is important; it's not in a lot of fantasy. It's an important part of human beings, the way we interact with each other."

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Speaking to why such a match might happen, being a believer of R+L= J, if Jon is legitimate, then he is the rightful king of Westeros.

Currently, the North is independent again. While he is a Stark on his mother's side, she was the third sibling, Sansa is a child of the second sibling.

If Rickon dies or renounces his heritage and Bran walks a different path, then that leaves Sansa and Arya.

The north is THE size of all the kingdoms put together, there is no seven kingdoms without the north, so in order to reunite the kingdoms, it would have to be treated the same as Dorne.

Aegon, (if real), or Jon would have to marry Sansa or Arya to bring it back into the fold.

Not exactly. All Jon would need is the Lord or Lady of the North to swear fealty. In Aegon's case such a marriage would be beneficial because he has no ties or family there. But, I don't see that happening because I don't see the North taking much of an interest in Aegon. And besides, Aegon is probably a dead man anyway. I'd be surprised if he survived for too long. And that's a reason I hope Sansa stays about a 1000 miles from him.

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Speaking to why such a match might happen, being a believer of R+L= J, if Jon is legitimate, then he is the rightful king of Westeros.

Currently, the North is independent again. While he is a Stark on his mother's side, she was the third sibling, Sansa is a child of the second sibling.

If Rickon dies or renounces his heritage and Bran walks a different path, then that leaves Sansa and Arya.

The north is THE size of all the kingdoms put together, there is no seven kingdoms without the north, so in order to reunite the kingdoms, it would have to be treated the same as Dorne.

Aegon, (if real), or Jon would have to marry Sansa or Arya to bring it back into the fold.

Why does everyone forget Robb's will?

Robb's will is more likely to be revealed before Jon's parentage.

It would be typically bittersweet for Sansa to be denied Winterfell, after so much suffering and manipulation by others who want control of it. It would be atypically sweet for Sansa to become the Lady of Winterfell through marriage after the fact.

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If it happens it will be political.

And even then, its pushing it.

I sincerely hope not. I actually think it'd be cool if Sansa and Arya were sort of Jon's Rhaenys and Visenya, so to speak, but I draw the line at marriage. They might biologically be cousins but mentally and emotionally they're siblings. It's too much.

Indeed. The characters themselves would find themselves hella squicked out by the idea of actually...doing the Do and stuff.

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Grrm wrote a lot of romances and romance in this story. I don't agree that every romance will crash and burn and the lovers will all suffer horribly and love stinks! It's a bitch man! I find the idea that all will end in ashes to be a very dark view of romance in general and not necessarily what I've been reading in ASOIAF.

One could just as easily point out that traveling in the Riverlands is doomed and list all the people who have died, suffered separations, seen their friends and family members die. Love during wartime is obviously tough.

Is Grrm so cruel that he'll kill every love affair with a such bitter endings for all? I'm not convinced of that. His planned title for his last book; A Dream of Spring is a romantic title and gives me as sense of hope that all good human feelings won't be lost.

It seems some readers have sour grapes for the romances he's written in the story. Many are still in progress, we'll just have to see where they go.

ASoIaF can be romantic about honor, virtue and so on - it is seldom romantic about sexual human relationships. Yes, the Dream of Spring will likely end with a hopeful view for the future of Westeros - I very much doubt this will include any relationship oriented romance.

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If RLJ is true, Stannis will still be the rightful king of Westeros. Robert B was rightful king through conquest and since his wife's children are not his the next in line to session would be Stannis.


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Grrm wrote a lot of romances and romance in this story. I don't agree that every romance will crash and burn and the lovers will all suffer horribly and love stinks! It's a bitch man! I find the idea that all will end in ashes to be a very dark view of romance in general and not necessarily what I've been reading in ASOIAF.

One could just as easily point out that traveling in the Riverlands is doomed and list all the people who have died, suffered separations, seen their friends and family members die. Love during wartime is obviously tough.

Is Grrm so cruel that he'll kill every love affair with a such bitter endings for all? I'm not convinced of that. His planned title for his last book; A Dream of Spring is a romantic title and gives me as sense of hope that all good human feelings won't be lost.

It seems some readers have sour grapes for the romances he's written in the story. Many are still in progress, we'll just have to see where they go.

There's nothing "romantic" about "A Dream of Spring" in of itself, particularly since we don't know yet whether the emphasis should be on "spring" or on "dream"; if it's the latter, A DREAM of Spring, I think we're in for an especially bitter version of bittersweet. The quotes from Le Cygne do not counter my points, either. ummester has it in one:

ASoIaF can be romantic about honor, virtue and so on - it is seldom romantic about sexual human relationships.

Barristan's ADWD quotes about romantic passion are the least romantic thing you'll ever read and even seem to hint at GRRM calling fangirl shippers, especially those who fawn over his bad boy characters, immature idiots:

Like all good queens she put her people first - else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq - but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.
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Not exactly. All Jon would need is the Lord or Lady of the North to swear fealty. In Aegon's case such a marriage would be beneficial because he has no ties or family there. But, I don't see that happening because I don't see the North taking much of an interest in Aegon. And besides, Aegon is probably a dead man anyway. I'd be surprised if he survived for too long. And that's a reason I hope Sansa stays about a 1000 miles from him.

Swearing "fealty" suggests a bond to lordship.

The North, through the Starks may choose to support Jons claim to the IR, but as far as the north goes, they are still an independent kingdom. To reunite the seven kingdoms so far as the north goes, means having a blood bond, or offspring of both Targayren and Stark that even Jon himself doesn't satisfy.

As I said, Lyanna was only third in line of Stark succession, Sansa or Arya as Neds, (who would have been king in the north after Brandon), daughters would bring as their dowry, so to speak, the north, as in the case of Spain, Ferdinand and Isabellas union created one kingdom.

War of the Roses parallels:

There is a good theory that Jon is a bit like Henry Tudor, also referred to as the "Winter King," who married Elizabeth of York to unite the Roses. Though in this scenario, Dany probably does fit that description more in terms of ending a family feud.

Arya/Jon:

Another theory suggests, (along Arthurian parallels), that Arya like Morgan le Fey, sleeps with Jon in the guise of another woman via the Faceless Men.

Textually, there are enough reasons for such scenarios to occur.

.

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Swearing "fealty" suggests a bond to lordship.

The North, through the Starks may choose to support Jons claim to the IR, but as far as the north goes, they are still an independent kingdom. To reunite the seven kingdoms so far as the north goes, means having a blood bond, or offspring of both Targayren and Stark that even Jon himself doesn't satisfy.

As I said, Lyanna was only third in line of Stark succession, Sansa or Arya as Neds, (who would have been king in the northafter Brandon), daughters would bring as their dowry, so to speak, the north, as in the case of Spain, Ferdinand and Isabellas union created one kingdom.

War of gthe Roses parallels:

There is a good theory that Jon is a bit like the Henry Tudor, also referred to as the "Winter King," who married Elizabeth of York to unite the Roses. Though in this scenario, Dany probably does fit more that description more in terms of ending a family feud.

Arya/Jon:

Another theory suggests, (along Arthurian parallels), that Arya like Morgan le Fey, sleeps with Jon in the guise of another woman via the Faceless Men.

Textually, there are enough reasons for such scenarios to occur.

.

Jon is a biologically a Stark, if not legally. He is also culturally very much a Northerner, something I don't expect to change even after he learns who his real father is. The bottom line is that Jon would have the North's support. Where he is likely to lack political support is in the South. The North may be very large in terms of geography, but isn't probably in terms of population or wealth.

Jon marrying a Stark girl would be overkill. He doesn't need to do that to gain the North's support for his Kingship. He would need to marry where his support may not be so strong. Which would be in the South.

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Jon is a biologically a Stark, if not legally. He is also culturally very much a Northerner, something I don't expect to change even after he learns who his real father is. The bottom line is that Jon would have the North's support. Where he is likely to lack political support is in the South. The North may be very large in terms of geography, but isn't probably in terms of population or wealth.

Jon marrying a Stark girl would be overkill. He doesn't need to do that to gain the North's support for his Kingship. He would need to marry where his support may not be so strong. Which would be in the South.

The Targaryens only matter to the South. If Jon is proven to be Rhaegars legitimate son, the southern houses will rally around him. In the north, they are looking for wolves, not dragons. Torrens sword was one of the few swords that Aegon did not melt down for his throne.

The Starks have always been the "kings" in the north, and the Targaryens knew it.

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The Targaryens only matter to the South. If Jon is proven to be Rhaegars legitimate son, the southern houses will rally around him. In the north, they are looking for wolves, not dragons. Torrens sword was one of the few swords that Aegon did not melt down for his throne.

The Starks have always been the "kings" in the north, and the Targaryens knew it.

Some southern houses may rally round him. But, I doubt all. Particularly a Targayen that is very different in many ways from his Targ ancestors. And Jon is half Stark. I mean do you really think that Jon's base of support in the North would be that weak? I am just not seeing it. A former leader of the NW? The guy who is a brother to the Lord or Lady of the North? And perhaps even its temporary defacto leader? The one place Jon won't lack support is the North.

ETA:

Also, I am not even sure if Jon's Targ heritage will even be the major factor that gets him the Kingship, if it happens, because I'm not saying it's definite, although it will probably be a factor.

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Some southern houses may rally round him. But, I doubt all. Particularly a Targayen that is very different in many ways from his Targ ancestors. And Jon is half Stark. I mean do you really think that Jon's base of support in the North would be that weak? I am just not seeing it. A former leader of the NW? The guy who is a brother to the Lord or Lady of the North? And perhaps even its temporary defacto leader? The one place Jon won't lack support is the North.

Unless he runs afoul of his cousins. The north remembers Neds trueborn children, they don't remember his "bastard." As the wraiths in the crypts from Jons dreams said, "you don't belong here...."

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Unless he runs afoul of his cousins. The north remembers Neds trueborn children, they don't remember his "bastard." As the wraiths in the crypts from Jons dreams said, "you don't belong here...."

And it's Ned's trueborn children that are going to be running things in the North, when everything is said and done. The ones that love Jon. Also, I think it's quite possible that Jon will temporarily be the defacto leader of the North for a while. During this period of leadership, Jon might build a strong base of support among the Northern lords. Plus, the fact that Jon will be the guy that probably leads the North against the Others.

I think it's quite likely that Jon will act beyond the scope of a typical LC. When Rickon shows back up, there is going to be real question who is going to be his regent.And I think Jon acting as regent, even temporarily, is quite possible.

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Until Jon learns of his real parentage (assuming R+L=J) he isn't going to want a marriage alliance with Sansa, his apparent half-sister. He would have to first learn of his parentage, and it would have to be made widely public, for it to become a political union. At the moment Jon is totally focused on the peril to the north and if Sansa claimed Winterfell he would probably be happy for her to have it.


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You really think GRRM is calling 'fangirl shippers' idiots? I think you're doing some tremendous projection if you think that.

The quote lumps "young girls" in with "fools" and "children" in discussing their romantic predilections, and there's this 2012 interview, where he seems bemused to say the least at women fawning over "deeply troubled" individuals who've done "very dark" things:

I am sometimes surprised by the reactions of...women in particular to some of the villains (...) who have written me over the years that their favourite characters are Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane the Hound or Theon Greyjoy. All of these are deeply troubled individuals with some very dark sides who have done some very dark things but, you know, nonetheless they do draw this response and quite heavily, I think, in the case of some of them, from my female readers in particular.

I hadn't previously thought of that ADWD quote as a dig at moronic fangirl shippers at first, but in light of that interview, where he also admits to playing with the Sandor/Sansa dynamic in the books but also seems bemused at best, contemptuous at worst of fangirls fawning over his villains, I do wonder. It seems as if he's sort of talking out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he's deliberately goading the fangirls by inserting this type of shipper-bait material. On the other hand, he's chiding them and making a big show of "surprise" at the fangirls "responding" to it, i.e. fawning over these fucked-up ("deeply troubled") individuals who commit atrocities ("very dark things") and shipping them with other characters. He does seem to be having a bit of a laugh at the expense of those sorts of fangirls, which is why I wondered about that ADWD quote where Barristan despairs at "young girls" idiotically chasing after "fiery" dirtbags like Daario.

Dany/Daario in general could almost be a meta commentary on moronic fangirls who wax rhapsodic about the hidden depths of the villains they ship so violently with their characters of choice, now that I think of it: GRRM invents the sketchiest, nastiest, sleaziest, most ridiculous-looking character imaginable, and promptly has one of his primary young female characters fall madly in love (or at least lust) with him. It would explain the cheesy way it's written and add an interesting meta flavour to the characters in ADWD rolling their eyes at Dany's stupidity.

Topic: It's a good point that it's hard to see exactly why Jon and Sansa would need to enter into a political marriage, apart from the question of whether Jon or Sansa would be personally inclined to do so. Sansa would have no claim to Winterfell unless Rickon died and Bran remained AWOL, meaning that she wouldn't have any political capital other than being part of a family to which Jon already belongs, and Jon wouldn't need to marry her to win the North over to his side.

I guess I can see Jon and Sansa ending up together as endgame king and queen in that they seem the most likely candidates for the positions if they live long enough--Sansa in particular strikes me as a more likely candidate than Arianne, Margaery, Dany, Shireen, or even Val--but it's very difficult to see how or why they would end up there. The destination seems plausible, but the route to that destination does not.

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I guess I can see Jon and Sansa ending up together as endgame king and queen in that they seem the most likely candidates for the positions if they live long enough--Sansa in particular strikes me as a more likely candidate than Arianne, Margaery, Dany, Shireen, or even Val--but it's very difficult to see how or why they would end up there. The destination seems plausible, but the route to that destination does not.

There is one instance in AGOT where Sansa and Arya are argueing, and at one point Sansa tells Arya, that one day she will be married to Joff, become Queen, and Arya must call her Your Grace (or something... - you get the point.) Basically that is my only reason to think that Arya will be the one to end up as Queen, not Sansa. And of course the other one, (that they even included in the show!) where Ned tells Arya that she will marry a King.

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Arya/Jon:

Another theory suggests, (along Arthurian parallels), that Arya like Morgan le Fey, sleeps with Jon in the guise of another woman via the Faceless Men.

Textually, there are enough reasons for such scenarios to occur.

That is a possibility, but why would Arya do that to Jon?

I can see Jon falling in love with Arya, while he doesn't know it's Arya, and by the time Arya reveals herself, he will be like "lucky we are just cousins...". But still don't know why Arya would go for it.

If they ever meet while Arya is in a faceless disguise, I think Jon will either see through it (he knows glamour exists), or it will be Ghost who recognises Arya (by her smell) - and since Jon can smell through Ghost, he will know, it's Arya, too.

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I believe that Jaime is actually Aerys' son. I'd place my bets on a legitmized Jaime being king and marrying Sansa to bring the North back into the fold. This way, Sansa marries a Targaryen, and becomes queen without commiting any incest. Even if Aegon is real, and I don't believe he is, I don't see him living and ruling Westeros as king. Even less likely is thought of Sansa being married to him. Jon will most likely die before the end.


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And even then, its pushing it.

Indeed. The characters themselves would find themselves hella squicked out by the idea of actually...doing the Do and stuff.

That's it, in both cases. No reason for it politically. And both characters would be squicked out.

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