Valyria afraid of westeros?

[LmL]

FreeNorthman, I'm totally with you on the bloodstone rock coming from the shattered second moon. I am drafting a theory about that, and Azor Ahai and everything around it. I thought I sent you a link - I guess you haven't seen it. A lot the stuff your talking about, I agree with.

The difference between our ideas is that the Asshai people, the Bloodstone Empire, to me were a corruption of something that came before. That's exactly what we are told, and I think it's true. I don't tank they engineered dragons with the magic of the bloodstone, I think they TWISTED dragons, as I see the bloodstone representing a twisted form of fire - shadow fire. Consider this : there may be two breeds of dragons, hidden under our nose. I knows everyone thinks the HOTU vision of the shadowfire dragon waking from a burning stone tower refers to JonCon and fAegon, and I think it definitely does that, but consider. Drogon, Balerion the Black Dread, and the Cannibal of TPATQ are all huge black dragons who breathe BLACK FLAME. I had to go double check to make sure when I first had this thought - but yeah, all the big black dragons breathe black fire. Shadow Fire, or Blackfyre. Just as the Blackfyres are a corrupted form of Targaryens, I believe the shadow fire dragons were a corruption of the original dragons, made with the magic of the bloodstone.

I have found a lot of evidence for this, but I'm working on typing it up in a cohesive essay, so I'd rather present it that way than in an incoherent, haphazard stream of consciousness.

[LmL]

I've also got the order reversed from your proposal : whatever they did at Asshai didn't cause the moon to crack, according to my theory, but rather, the moon cracked, a bloodstone landed at Asshai, and the BS Emperor set up shop there and harnessed its power. During the Long Night, his powers would have been every strong, and so he expanded and conquered in a short time, like a Dark Alexander.

If the bloodstone impact caused the Long Night, it would have had to have been a pretty big impact. The bloodstone that he worshipped couldn't have landed in Yi Ti, where the Great Empire existed, because then the myth would be about a huge explosion that wiped out the empire in a day. No, I think it landed at Asshai, and that's why it's super fucked up around there. Probably upriver, at Stygai, and all the water flowing from there is passing over or throughout the remnants of this bloodstone meteor...thats why the twisted, blind fish and poison water and ghost grass. It's a good explanation for why Asshai is so... Nuclear holocaust looking. Is it just that way for the hell of it? I think the bloodstone meteor (which we know is associated with every type of dark magic) landing at Asshai is a great explanation for why it is the way it is, regardless of what you think about my grandiose notions of the Great Empire of the Dawn.

Really, it's more logical that an evil sorcerer emperor usurped a great empire that had built up organically over centuries than to think he created a brand new empire in one generation.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'm not going to claim I know exactly how things went down around the time of the Long Night. We have far too little information on it.

But where I disagree quite fundamentally with you, is on the significance of all the "background filler" history we were given in the World Book. Some ancient kingdom that is only mentioned in the World Book is not going to be the root cause behind what we see in the main series. Ashaii on the other hand has been mentioned in the main series from the start. In fact, Bran's first major astral projection dream includes both the Land of Always Winter and Ashaii, where dragons stir. Those are the two players in the game.

I would not be at all surprised if the Golden Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor etc. were all made up fairly recently, to populate the World Book.

As for shadowfire dragons. There really isn't time left in the books to go down a tangent like that. Shadowfire in Dany's vision refers to a Blackfire prince - fAegon. That's it. The colour of dragonflame is not going to suddenly become a major issue in the 2 remaining books. It is simply a bit of detail that was added to enrich the story, the issue of different coloured flames for different dragons.

[Lord Varys]

It is nearly confirmed that the Doom was caused by the Faceless Men. We have all the pieces.

- The Kindly Man saying that they brought the gift to the masters (i.e. the dragonlords).

- TWoIaF introducing the spells the Valyrians used to keep the Fourteen Flames in check/harness their power.

- The fact that the Iron Bank sent envoys to Valyria to prepare the Uncloaking of Uthero.

What we are lacking are essentially only the details. My take on is that some Faceless Men came to Valyria with the Iron Bank envoys, murdered and impersonated Valyrians with access to the facilities where the spells were upheld, and actively broke them at an opportune moment - that is, when nearly all the dragonlords and dragons were assembled in Valyria.

Septon Barth's theory gave us all the pieces - the spells, the sorcerers, and assassinations. But he would have had no clue about the involvement of the Faceless Men. The idea that the Valyrian elite took out all its best (and paramount) sorcerers themselves makes little sense, nor the theory that the spells broke slowly over a longer period of time. The Valyrians would never target people that upheld the foundation of their whole existence, nor would the dragonlords have remained at Valyria had they known that the spells were giving way.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is nearly confirmed that the Doom was caused by the Faceless Men. We have all the pieces.

- The Kindly Man saying that they brought the gift to the masters (i.e. the dragonlords).

- TWoIaF introducing the spells the Valyrians used to keep the Fourteen Flames in check/harness their power.

- The fact that the Iron Bank sent envoys to Valyria to prepare the Uncloaking of Uthero.

What we are lacking are essentially only the details. My take on is that some Faceless Men came to Valyria with the Iron Bank envoys, murdered and impersonated Valyrians with access to the facilities where the spells were upheld, and actively broke them at an opportune moment - that is, when nearly all the dragonlords and dragons were assembled in Valyria.

Septon Barth's theory gave us all the pieces - the spells, the sorcerers, and assassinations. But he would have had no clue about the involvement of the Faceless Men. The idea that the Valyrian elite took out all its best (and paramount) sorcerers themselves makes little sense, nor the theory that the spells broke slowly over a longer period of time. The Valyrians would never target people that upheld the foundation of their whole existence, nor would the dragonlords have remained at Valyria had they known that the spells were giving way.

I just don't see how the Lannister gold that was paid for Brightroar fits into that picture, if the Faceless Men had not been bought with that same gold - meaning by a Valyrian faction itself.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, we don't even know if the Lannisters bought Brightroar from the dragonlords or from Velaryons or another house controlling the islands in the Narrow Sea prior to the Targaryen arrival. We know that the Velaryons were on Driftmark before the Targaryens came, and I imagine that whoever controlled Dragonstone before the Targaryens would have made the profit from selling the Valyrian steel blades, not so much the Valyrians in Valyria.

I don't really understand the whole Lannister gold prophecy. It could have something to do with the payment for the job to cause the Doom - I imagine that the early keyholders of the Iron Bank - essentially the rulers of Braavos - had to pay the House of Black and White to kill annihilate Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer. I don't think the Faceless Men were actually all that eager to cause that much devastation, but conceded to do it - for the right price. A lot of gold they received could have come from Casterly Rock - physically, at least. Considering the fact that early Braavos could not actually treat with any Valyrian colony, the cities of Westeros would have been their primary trading partner, especially distant Lannisport.

[Mithras]

Here is my theory

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Again, you are making a host of assumptions about what George intended and how far back he planned things, and based on no evidence that I can see.

And what is your evidence that he planned all of these (mostly crazy) claims you propose?

Your dismissal of the naming suffixes indicates assumes that George hasn't studied cultural dispersion and isn't working those principle into his book. This is based on no evidence, and doesn't even make sense.

It's a coincidence! D'oh...

Gorgai was founded by Ghiscari, Jogos Nhai are far eastern, no one knows who built Asshai, Marahai is an island that apparently no one claims. Again, why there is no YiTish city with -ai suffix if all cities with -ai suffix are remnants of GEotD?

And yes, SEVERAL things suggest the statues Arya saw were the Great Emoire emperors - not YiTish, before YiTi - the Great Empire of the Dawn.

And what are these SEVERAL things? You think the gemstone emperors are also gods of death?

The magicians near the end of the House of the Undying also promise Dany to teach her dragon speech. That was in book two. When the gemstone eyed people tell Dany about teaching her Dragon speech again in book 5, that's the second time. The only rulers associated with gemstones in the entire book are the Emperors of the Great Empire of the Dawn, who wore cloth of gold and were named after gemstones.

Bolded part: What?

Dany saw her ancestors in her dream in aGoT, the statues had amethyst eyes...

You seem like obsessed with the idea that Great Empire of Dawn was the most advanced and magical and superior empire of the world, while it's only a fancy founding myth of YiTish.

BUT

As I said many times, I believe that some parts of the story is true or at least close to the truth.

But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[LmL]

And what is your evidence that he planned all of these (mostly crazy) claims you propose?

It's a coincidence! D'oh...

Gorgai was founded by Ghiscari, Jogos Nhai are far eastern, no one knows who built Asshai, Marahai is an island that apparently no one claims. Again, why there is no YiTish city with -ai suffix if all cities with -ai suffix are remnants of GEotD?

All of the -ai suffixes, if you look at them on a map, are in a giant ring around the lands of Yi Ti, and are specifically associated with cultures that appear to be descended from whatever the "first empire was" - if you want to think of it as ancient Asshai, that's fine. The other examples I gave of cultural dispersal show people crossing the bones and fleeing west. This also points back to the area of Yi Ti.

The mechanism that I propose for explaining the fact that the current inhabitants of the lands which used to belong to the GEotD don't have names that sound like any of the -ai named cultures,cities, and heroes which surround it is this: the GEotD ruled a huge area, which means many different tribes and peoples were assimilated or brought under their rule. After the LN, we are told the GEotD (which the bloodstone emperor usurped) did not reform, but broke apart and was scattered, because "the earth was a broken thing." The current YiTish are likely the tribe which eventually set up their capital at the location of the old GEotD. We are specifically told that beneath every YiTish city lies ruins of three older ones. That's a fact, not a myth. Yi Ti was built on top an older empire. This is a fact. They seem like Johnny come latelys.

And what are these SEVERAL things? You think the gemstone emperors are also gods of death?

Bolded part: What?

Dany saw her ancestors in her dream in aGoT, the statues had amethyst eyes...

I agree she saw her ancestors - but I think the ancestors she saw were those from the Great empire of the Dawn, the first to tame or create dragons. The Amethysts for eyes may be a direct correlation to the statues of golden gods with gemstone eyes in the house of black and white. It makes sense to find these old statues there, as the House of Black and White seems to collect statues of every god they can find. I'm not sure why you think all the statues there are gods of death - they have all the gods there, so a person may find whichever one they identify with. To the FM, they are all aspects of the same god.

You seem like obsessed with the idea that Great Empire of Dawn was the most advanced and magical and superior empire of the world, while it's only a fancy founding myth of YiTish.

BUT

As I said many times, I believe that some parts of the story is true or at least close to the truth.

But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

It's the idea I am currently exploring. I probably should have added more qualifying statements earlier, like "I think" and "it may be that.." "It's possible that..." So I apologize if I came across as overly certain. This is all hypothesis, and one I think there is at least enough evidence for to explore it and try to corroborate it. The vibe I got from you was that you were simply rejecting it out of hand because it seems far fetched, or contradicts with your own ideas. I was hoping to explore the idea and consider the possibilities. I try to consider everyone's theory, as it promotes flexible thinking and makes my own ideas better. To wit, it's certainly possible a cigar is just a cigar. I certainly keep that possibility in mind as I look for patterns and secrets. It's just that in Martin's world a "cigar" seems to represent a sword, a comet, a man, impregnation, dragons, Azor Ahai reborn, as well as having connotations to Mithras and Lucifer and old comic books, all at the same time. I am seeing him carry out his symbolism on as many levels as he can.. Because he's really smart and he can.

As far as the issue of Bloodstone Emperor being introduced so late in the story, let me say again: I think he's simply the guy who built Asshai. All references to Asshai, according to my hypothesis, would be talking about him and his legacy. Clearly, someone got around in ancient times with the greasy stone, Bloodstone or Heliotrope (really, look up heliotrope - not only is it a greasy looking black stone called bloodstone, it's definition means "to turn or bend the sun," it's used to make sun mirrors, and it's also a genus of plants - one of which is called the Valerian and has little purple flowers!). We are certainly led to believe that's whoever was slangin that bloodstone was tied in to the Long Night somehow, so we are all speculating as to who. It's not really going to be that important to the main story to understand exactly what happened in the past, but rather, it gives a richer understanding of the past events, and foreshadows the reconciliation to come. And it's fun. I think George meant for us to puzzle this out, the ancient happenings, and I really think he left enough clues to do so.

I really think the fused black stone is the big clue here. Fused black stone has only one source that we have heard - dragonflame. Whoever built the five forts and the Hightower fort almost certainly had dragons, but we know they were not Valyrians, because they are too old. The fused stone is not greasy, and it is not inimical to plant or animal life. It is not associated with necromancy. The fused stone structures all have a similar style - utilitarian, functional, unadorned.

Meanwhile, the greasy stone structures are all associated with dark gods, necromancy, human animal hybrids, and everything that's going on in Asshai. The more greasy stone at a location, the worse the nuclear fallout type of effects are. Asshai has the most stone, and the entire peninsula is a smoking desolation. Yeen is next biggest, the jungle, which is twisted, will not grow into the city proper. Again, dark magic that is inimical to live is present. Next, we have the isle of Toads - a forty foot greasy stone lump carved into a frog. We aren't old if plants grow there, but the people who live there "have an unpleasant, fishy aspect to them" and just next door, at Gorgai, we hear about the animals being bred with skave children. Yes, that's a Ghiscari city and thus founded after the LN, but it's next to the Toad statue, so it's not hard to see that they may have tapped into the power of the greasy stone on the isle of toads. Last, the Seastone chair, is the smallest hunk of greasy stone. It's on the end of the isle of Pyke, and there's certainly no plants there on that last little but of castle. They Greyjoys "do not sow," and frankly are more than a little twisted.

Seems pretty clear that: fused stone and greasy stone have nothing in common except the color black and the word stone. Style, method, material (probably), and technique - all different. Thus, it's not really "crazy" to look for two ancient cultures that match the two types of ancient settlements. I think the bloodstone culture came from Asshai (I think we agree there), and I propose the GEotD as the fused stone makers. Since we really have no reason to associate Asshai with fused stone - the stone at Asshai is quarried, like in Yeen - and every reason to associate Asshai with greasy stone and it's demonic powers. So, if not the golden empire, who was it that had dragons to make the fused stone buildings in ancient days, before the Long Night? Before the blood betrayal, and thus before the bloodstone Emperor and his greasy stone building spree?

I suppose you can shrug and say "who knows," but where's the fun in that? For us, or George? Why not explore ideas about who it might have been? Anyways that's as much time to lay out the case as I have for now. I'm working on a coherent presentation as I refine and corroborate (or not) my ideas.

Lastly, I think the events which the blood betrayal describe (a theory I haven't talked about on this thread at all) have been foreshadowed and referenced since book one. I hope to be able to show this. I don't think George is retconing anything.