A dream of never ending summer

[BalerionTheCat]

Using "Lucifer means Lightbringer" POV concerning AA, and remarks from "Durran Durrandon" and others, I believe I can humbly extend my theory concerning the real game play of ASoIaF and its ending. See my addition at the end of this post.

17 January 2015

The bulk of ASoIaF story relates the competition between different houses for sitting the IT and ruling the 7K. We know however that the IT is not that important. The most important thing is to vanquish or make peace with the Others and survive the soon to come Long Winter.

But is it only that? Or is there greater stakes still hidden to almost everyone?

According to the YI TI priests of Yin, the "Great Empire of the Dawn" existed before any other, and had dominion over all mankind. Its first emperor was the son of the "Lion of Night" and the "Maiden-Made-of-Light". The empire fall finally occurred when men took to kin betrayal and evil arts. Then the Light turned her back and the Night came to punish the evil men: this was the Long Night. The LN eventually ended when the great warrior Azor Ahai lead virtuous men in battle against evil. But the world unity remained broken ever after, for every tribe of men was fearful and at war with the others.

All this could be discarded as legends altered by time and distance. But some of it at least must be true if you believe Lomas Longstrider and Colloquo Votar voyages accounts in YI TI: ancient cities, abundance of ruins, records from many thousands of years ago, and most impressive of all, 5 fortresses even higher than the Wall.

My first hypothesis is that the alternation of Summers and Winters indeed originate in the broken unity after the LN. And that alternation would cease if the unity was restored. We expect the return of AA, so we could also expect that he will finish the job properly this time. The expectancy of a "summer that will never end" is common, and is probably promised by one or multiple legends. Benerro, a priest of R’hllor, believes that Daenerys will bring this summer:

"her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end ..."

Except that I don't think Daenerys is AA: Benerro is unaware of R+L=J, so his confusion is excusable. And I believe that AA is a real warrior, with a real sword.

My second hypothesis is that the return of the unity requires the restoration of the empire with an emperor having legitimacy from both the Night and the Light. If R+L=J is true, the emperor would be Jon, the son of the Light/Fire ( R ) and the Night/Ice ( L ). The genders are reversed wrt the YI TI legend, but it doesn't matter. Rhaegar and Lyanna are just the vessels bringing Jon, not the avatars of the magical forces. And the Song would be the magic harmony provided by both Light/Fire and Night/Ice. In the YI TI legend, Night and Light are opposed, but complementary and necessary for life, not at war against each other.

BTW, I don't see how Daenerys could claim any inheritance from Ice.

AA and the emperor could be different persons, but for me the same seems more probable.

The idea of world unity is present elsewhere. The Dothraki prophecy of the "Stallion Who Mounts the World", the "khal of khals" who will dominate all the world has been foreseen imminent by the Dosh khaleen. So its potential of coming into existence must exist. The Dothraki concept of unity is however limited: a gigantic horde of savages eradicating every civilization and city on its path. Not what we would dream of. Fortunately, Mirri Maz Duur has defeated this possibility. Many thanks to her.

What comes next is very questionable. But ASoIaF is a fantasy novel, so I suppose a few things really fantastic may happen.

Besides YI TI, other legends speak of rulers living for approximately 1000 years: Durran the first Storm King, the Grey King of the Ironborn (he reigned for precisely 1007 years). And the Grey King was supposed to reign over all Westeros. Or was it everywhere? Was the Grey King a sibling of the YI TI emperor before the coming of the First Men? The life expectancy is apparently absurd. But the concordance of independent legends from far remote countries is troubling. And where magic and gods are involved, everything is possible...And we have the Waif, apparently not undead, but not ageing either, showing us that long life is a possible god's gift.

In addition, the Ironborn saying "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" may also be telling of Jon's future. If Jon really dies in ADWD, rises again, harder and stronger, he may never die again and insure the empire's stability for 1000 years or more. My feeling is that the gods and prophecies of different cultures are more connected that it seems. And if the empire integrity is so important, how to better guarantee it than with a long living emperor? Where is the good of building a world united in peace, if in a few generations, brothers and sisters go at each other throat and spread blood and fire everywhere?

I do not pretend to extrapolate what will happen in the remaining books, and reaching unity will need more than a few years, and we will never have POV in the far east. But here are just some ideas about how the world could unite behind Jon:

If you believe in R+L=J, then you expect that Jon will rule Westeros. The Free Folk north of the Wall is already as good as his. I think the Free Cities will be his also if he secure trade, do not interfere excessively in the Cities' affairs, and demands taxes no worse than the Dothraki "gifts". Bravos would be the most supportive (sharing the slavery prohibition) and the Volantis the more difficult (having their own dream of ruling the World after Valyria). But when Red Priests and YI TI priests will recognize AA in Jon, they will certainly help him unite the countries in which they have influence.

We know very little concerning YI TI, but the region seems continuously at war between contesting emperors. As far as we known, the coming of the LN is as much due to shit raining in YI TI than in Westeros. Possibly many will welcome the return of a legitimate emperor. When the LN will come, and men will believe their evil deeds are causing the doom, the "virtuous" will go to Jon and will fight with him.

The Dothraki seem less likely to accept Jon. Either the Dosh khaleen recognize the khal of khals in Jon, or the LN put the fear in the superstitious savages. Anyway, the Dothraki, once under control (no more raping and killing for fun), would be a perfect army for enforcing the empire peace wherever it is needed. The Slaver's Bay will be put under control either by this Dothraki police force or will have been completely destroyed by the plague and the massacres between slaves and masters.

In a final note, for me, Aegon's conquest of Westeros was much more motivated by the wish to unite petty kingdoms and give peace to innocents nobles and commoners alike, than by the lust of power, as it is the case for most of the current IT contenders. To me, Aegon intent was, even if not knowingly, to accomplish the same goal as AA/tPTWP.

ETA, 13 March 2015

"cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky"

My feeling is the true gods were the Lion of Night and the Maiden-Made-of-Light. Indeed, the GEotD was their child. The black stone was sent by something else, possibly the Great Other. GO and LoN could be the same. But I don't think so. The LoN was wroth with the stone's followers, and two gods at least were cast down (meaning MMoL and LoN).

"On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror."

Melisandre associate R’hllor with the Light and the GO with the Night. But I'm wondering if these two are not different from the MMoL and the LoN. I'm pretty sure Ashai is R’hllor domain now, he is the God of Flame and Shadow.

But my feeling is that R’hllor was worshiped by the Sothoryos empire and its beasts long before the fall of the black stone and the LN. The oily stone was used by his followers. It was helping his presence, or was produced by his worshiping, or whatever. But its long and relatively mundane usage explains why it can be found in different locations of the South Empire, at different degrees of corruption.

I believe now the stone fell from the sky was an attack or an invasion of the GEotD. The stone fell near its capital Ashai, with the purpose to corrupt the GEotD. The Amethyst brother fell to its power and murdered his sister. The stone much increased R’hllor influence on the world. It created the Shadow Lands, allowed the glass candles and the dragons (Sothoryos' wyvern corruption by dark arts). IMO, association of the stone and R’hllor thru Ashai is clearly putting R’hllor in the evil camp. Dragons were used by the corrupted GEotD to fight the GO, R’hllor enemy. Possibly the very south of Sothoryos is similar to the Lands of Always Winter.

I would believe now the final goal is to get rid of both R’hllor and GO influence, who are fighting their private war using the human as their little soldiers. I think we should be careful of the Red priests propaganda, including the AAR savior shit (Lucifer, you agree?). I have no doubt some savior(s) arise, to fight the Bloodstone emperor and put some end to the corruption, but he or they were not R’hllor's champions.

But TPTWP is different stuff I think. He may be the reincarnation of the GoE, by who the LoN and the MMoL could have the strength to expel the black stone from Ashai. I would believe now the CotF are the last supporters of the true, legitimate and natural gods. And are using their influence to fight R’hllor's, taking advantage of the GO enmity. Differently said, AAR by the Red priests would be the new Bloodstone emperor, the TPTWP corrupted by the black stone.

We will not have a never ending summer, that is a lie. But we will have I think a return to the natural seasons. And the restoration of the Great Empire with the son of the Lion of Night and the Maiden-Made-of-Light.

"until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears"

You can bet now Rhaegar, Lyanna and others sacrifice has been rewarded.

[Roose is Azor Ahai]

I propably believe in R+L=J, but I don't think Jon will rule. He is a bastard. I like your theory, tho.

[Maester Drew]

I like the connection you made with "what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" and Jon's fate at the end of ADWD.

[LmL]

Hey there Balerion the Cat! Great thread, definitely deserving of more scrutiny that it got. So, you're hitting on some ideas I have had, and I think I actually have evidence to corroborate some of them. I like that you're thinking boldly here, as I think George has hidden some fantastic secrets here in these ancient legends.

I actually see Daenerys as a continuation or fulfillment of the Amethyst Empress. Jon does indeed fit the the AA role perfectly (have you read all the Mithras connections laid out in Schmendrick's "R + L = Lightbringer" thread?). And I think AA was actually the Bloodstone Emperor (evidence to come in future posting), so those roles are coming back - but I expect it to be an inversion of the previous events, in order to bring resolution. I think the AA story is a bit twisted - it was actually the story of the blood betrayal. Nissa Nissa was the Amethyst Empress, and she wasn't a willing sacrifice. Lightbringer the sword was the Bloodstone Emperor's / Azor Ahai's weapon, and it was a weapon of dark fire. He caused the LN.

The solution did involve the theme of sacrifice, the AA story has that part right. I just think the sacrifice was a different part of the story. If AA was the bad guy remembered as the good guy, and he committed betrayal and murder to cause the LN, do we know of someone who was remembered as a bad guy who maybe was actually a good guy, who's story involves themes opposite of betrayal and murder? Themes of sacrifice and procreation?

I can think of somebody who fits that description exactly.

[Kyll.Ing.]

The bulk of ASoIaF story relates the competition between different houses for sitting the IT and ruling the 7K. We know however that the IT is not that important. The most important thing is to vanquish or make peace with the Others and survive the soon to come Long Winter.

No.

We assume that. Mighty big difference.

The only accounts of any first "long night" are eight thousand years old. Moreover, they seem to have survived in oral tradition, by way of stories to scare kids with. Even if it did happen (the very existence of the Night's Watch and the Wall seems to indicate so), we don't really have any solid evidence that another is on its way. There are some REALLY thick "fogs of history" blanketing the events so long ago, and in a series widely known for taking a different approach to the standard conventions of the Fantasy genre, I find it very improbable that the Others will turn out to be another "Fantasy Zombie Horde" whose only goal is the extinction of mankind.

So far in the story, the struggle for the Iron Throne has killed... well, there are numerous "estimates threads" for such. But there have been six major wars with the goal of conquering the throne since it was forged only three hundred years earlier (seven if you count the War of the Conquest). The Others have killed... well, a few hundred wildlings and presumably a bit fewer men of the Night's Watch. However, we have yet to see their intentions, ambitions and capabilities. We do not know if the entire race are united in the current shenanigans in the Haunted Forest. We do not know the goal of their campaign, all we do is take the nursery stories (and the fanatically religious ramblings of Melisandre) literally and extrapolate them to the current situation.

This fandom is known for ignoring all kinds of written evidence in the books to support wildly fantastical theories, coming up with laughably implausible family bonds between supporting characters, scrutinizing the text for clues on Character A really being Character B in disguise, or even if Character B is mind-controlling Character A when the two clearly aren't the same. Yet we cannot seem to move on from the cliché of the Others basically being the Orcs of Mordor, only with ice. Yet another example of Solely Evil fantasy races who only exist for the sake of evildarkness and to destroy humanity. Why is that so?

"But then what about the big story of the series? Why build up the Others so much if not for them to break the wall and go all genocide on Westeros?"

Well, I believe a fully plausible and very valid lesson of the series could be that sometimes, the hands-on conflict is the important one. That the strangers from across the [geographical feature] aren't coming to take our lands and eat our babies. That the very real struggle for the very real Iron Throne has much wider and deeper implications than the assumed invasion of the unknown foreigners from the far north. The Others haven't been seen to destroy the realm to the degree that the conflicts between Men have. Basically that in a realistic setting, Sauron would have let the lands of Men in peace, and Gondor would have been ravaged by wars against Rohan or internal strife without any orc lifting a finger.

As long as we don't know squat about the Others - as we currently do (not), we shouldn't just assume that "they will be so much more important than anything else, because that's what Fantasy stories are like!"

In short, I expect more people to die because of lust for the Iron Throne than for the ambitions of the Others for the entire rest of the series.

[BalerionTheCat]

...

I actually see Daenerys as a continuation or fulfillment of the Amethyst Empress.

...

You guys are thinking too fast for me. But I like the idea of replaying the LN story with the rebirth of more than one character.

But for the Amethyst Empress, I would rather see Rhaenys. She was murdered, that's a point. But the beauty is, we may not have seen the end of her. Like some, I believe her soul went to her cat Balerion (that's me) when Amory Lorch killed her. I thought initially her warg ability was coming from her mother (many FM in Dorne), but Aegon V married Betha Blackwood, so her ability could come also from her father.

She could even return to a female body. My target is Mrycella. If Mrycella dies and is revived in a state like Khal Drogo, Rhaenys could occupy the body. I see well Cersei organizing a great fire and Qyburn doing some necromancy, in an attempt to resurrect Myrcella. What a bitter punishment for Cersei to see the Targaryen girl return in the body of her daughter. And as "Fox fur cloak" remarked, both Myrcella and the cat are missing an ear.

Someway like you suggest, playing the events of the Blood Betrayal, reversed or backward, could be how the world will mend. Total speculation, but at least it's fun.

For the rest of your ideas, I will have to think about it. But thank you for your input.

[BalerionTheCat]

The only accounts of any first "long night" are eight thousand years old. Moreover, they seem to have survived in oral tradition, by way of stories to scare kids with. Even if it did happen (the very existence of the Night's Watch and the Wall seems to indicate so), we don't really have any solid evidence that another is on its way. There are some REALLY thick "fogs of history" blanketing the events so long ago, and in a series widely known for taking a different approach to the standard conventions of the Fantasy genre, I find it very improbable that the Others will turn out to be another "Fantasy Zombie Horde" whose only goal is the extinction of mankind.

What you say sounds like the lords in KL mocking the NW while we already knew what was happening. There are accounts of the LN in every part of the world. All speak of a permanent darkness for a generation. What would happen to Earth if the Sun was cloaked for that long? The CofF have an immense network of caverns, well protecting them for the night and the cold. Winterfell has hot springs. I believe the LN may well wipe out nearly all trace of men on Westeros. All without adequate protection.

And GRRM said his story was adding more and more fantasy, as it progress.

[LmL]

Also, if you read the 93 letter that George wrote to submit his ideas for GoT to publishers, it's clear he did originally image the Others as "Ice Demons," "The Neverborn," and ice elementals. They were also presented as the "REAL THREAT" or the "biggest threat, " one or the other.

I do like the thinking that the race for Iron throne is causing all the damage, I think thats a valid point. But I diasgree with your take on the Others. I do think there is more to their story, as in, they may be necessary to balance out the dragons in some way, so there's definitely room to make them a bit more complex than orcs.

[LmL]

Balerion the cat is Rhaenys? That's pretty funky. I have always thought there was something to that cat though... Interesting.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

After 15 years there is no longer Rhaenys only the bad black cat Balerion . Killing ravens and making Robert laugh by stealing food from Tywin .

[BalerionTheCat]

After 15 years there is no longer Rhaenys only the bad black cat Balerion . Killing ravens and making Robert laugh by stealing food from Tywin .

I would expect her will to get revenge is keeping her conscious. To be still recognizing Lannisters is proof of that (frightening Tommen, clawing Joffrey ...). And I don't think GRRM would write that many times about this cat if it was just a cat.

[Blazfemur]

what i find interesting is that in twoiaf, int he yi ti section, they state the kings reigned for thousands of years (amethyst, etc), which would imply prolonged.

could the rulers be Others? if theyre ruling for thousands of years clearly theyre not human.

[Sosa]

It doesn't have to be only one person, the Amethyst Emperor could be a dynasty from a family related to amethysts, then when a new family takes over they call it a new emperor. Remember these stories are from thousands of years ago and were transmitted orally. They are not to be followed to the letter.

[LmL]

^^^ this is my gut feeling as of right now. Dynasties, and the gemstones mean eye color, and probably tribe or race. Perhaps just different houses. Anyway, that means all the purple eyed folks descend from the Amethyst Empress, the Bloodstone Emperor, or their kin. So.... Check out the other gemstones and see if any match descriptions of characters we know. *cough cough*

[Blazfemur]

^^^ this is my gut feeling as of right now. Dynasties, and the gemstones mean eye color, and probably tribe or race. Perhaps just different houses. Anyway, that means all the purple eyed folks descend from the Amethyst Empress, the Bloodstone Emperor, or their kin. So.... Check out the other gemstones and see if any match descriptions of characters we know. *cough cough*

sapphires, star-eyes, etc etc

aka Others, have blue

[LmL]

The Gemstone Emperors are: Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal, Amethyst, Bloodstone.

Jade is the one that stood out to me, especially considering these Gemstone Emperors had hair of gold and silver...

[BalerionTheCat]

It doesn't have to be only one person, the Amethyst Emperor could be a dynasty from a family related to amethysts, then when a new family takes over they call it a new emperor. Remember these stories are from thousands of years ago and were transmitted orally. They are not to be followed to the letter.

I don't think the longevity question should be evicted so quickly.

We have many Brandon Stark in north Westeros history. Without careful attention, one could imagine one Brandon Stark lived for many thousands of years and accomplish many things.

In the case of the God-on-Earth, the legend may be wrong, but they clearly (I believe) imply one single person:

"the only begotten son ... until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears"

And the Amethyst Empress seems also one specific person:

"When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress"

Why say the daughter, if it was a dynasty succeeding another?

By itself, it would not be proof enough. But we also have long lived people in Westeros legends. Claiming also one thousand years old. This is an symbolic number, but the similarity is troubling anyway. The FM coming to Westeros were quite possibly refugees from the Great Empire of the Dawn, after the Blood Betrayal. Possibly the Targaryen are the direct descendants of the murdered Amethyst Empress (right, Lucifer?) and are destined to restore her empire.

We could have here the GRRM equivalent of Tolkien's Númenor: men gifted with long lives by gods, fleeing the collapse of their empire after the take over by evil relatives. The Bloodstone Emperor (or his successors) would have ruled for a few thousand years between the coming of the FM and the LN (again long live?). The explicit reference to necromancy could suggest the existence of the Others. And for now I would favor the idea of the Others coming with the black stone fallen from the sky.

But the strongest evidence is, I think, GRRM not shy of crossing the barrier between life and death. We have real zombies (at least formally evidencing the legends part about necromancy is true), undead with still some of their volition, skinchangers and greenseers able to persist after the death of their physical body. We also have the Waif. Nothing suggests she is undead, but her aging seems stopped or very much slowed. And we also have the strange IB words "What Is dead may Never die" suggesting an undying state after a first death.

In summary, unnatural life is not as much unnatural as it is in our reality. I think we should not forget GRRM is writing a fantasy story, not just an ultra realistic medieval account. I'm not excluding anything of what is said in the different legends. We just have to be careful in how we interpret them. As with anything written by GRRM.

[LmL]

The FM coming to Westeros were quite possibly refugees from the Great Empire of the Dawn, after the Blood Betrayal. Possibly the Targaryen are the direct descendants of the murdered Amethyst Empress (right, Lucifer?) and are destined to restore her empire.

You’re singing my song alright. :)

In summary, unnatural life is not as much unnatural as it is in our reality. I think we should not forget GRRM is writing a fantasy story, not just an ultra realistic medieval account. I'm not excluding anything of what is said in the different legends. We just have to be careful in how we interpret them. As with anything written by GRRM.

Agree with this too. He’s basing his magic on loosely scientific ideas, but he’s not afraid to run with it, because yes, this is fantasy.

[BalerionTheCat]

Using "Lucifer means Lightbringer" POV concerning AA, and remarks from "Durran Durrandon" and others, I believe I can humbly extend my theory concerning the real game play of ASoIaF and its ending. See my addition at the end of the initial post.