Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn re-read project Part Two - Clash & Storm

[LordStoneheart]

Very nice write up. Nice change of armor too, Bastardly. ;)

This chapter is a great example of how introspective Catelyn is about her decisions. They may not always turn out in her favor, but she does not take them lightly and does not excuse herself from what she knows is a controversial act.

The theme of death with Catelyn is closely related with the theme we've been exploring way back in the Eyrie: Alyssa Arryn. In a way, I think we're witnessing how history doesn't really tell the whole story. We don't know the details about Alyssa, only that she did not weep and was supposedly punished for it. But we know why Catelyn has not really wept or grieved; she needs to stay strong for her family's sake. In her view, she cannot waste time grieving, and as a result, her story resembles Alyssa's but with much fuller detail.

My favorite line from this chapter:

Tully men did not surrender easily, no matter the odds.

Nor do the women. Brynden and Edmure prove this statement later, but Catelyn's entire arc is almost defined by the notion.

[BearQueen87]

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 2, Catelyn I: A Mother's Right

Sorry this took so long for me to get to! The forums lately have been an absolute nightmare!

In other news, great job BastardlyRock! (and I like the new pic!)

I think we should start marking down every time Cat answers someone "wearily." It might be her main adjective in Storm.

What I really like about the opening conversation between Cat and Lord Hoster's men is that Cat isn't acquiescing to what they are trying tell her about HER actions. Cat knows what she did; she knows why she did it and she won't have these men try to tell her the ins and outs of her release of Jaime. Cat could easily agree that it's a mother's grief over losing Bran and Rickon, not to mention war and Robb and her father. The men around her see her as woman and a mother and automatically ascribe that as meaning weak and malleable. But Cat remains firm and even offers to wear the Kingslayer's fetters.

I can’t help but feel Cat is not 100% sure of her own actions. What would you say if you knew my crime, Father? … Would you have done as I did, if it were Lysa and me in the hands of our enemies? Or would you condemn me too, and call it mother’s madness? Perhaps it is best that Lord Hoster could not give voice to his opinion on the matter, as any negative response may have been the final straw that broke Cat’s resolve. But then if he were to applaud her actions, it most certainly would silence her objectors… I doubt he would have, but I don’t know that I know him well enough to decide exactly how he would react…

I think Cat is sure of her own actions, but she is less sure about the criticisms she has to face from those she loves. The men of Riverrun are one thing--they are soldiers and politicians but in the end their harsh eyes and words won't hurt Cat more than she is already hurting from Bran and Rickon's loss. But seeing those same harsh eyes and hearing those same harsh words come from the only family she has left? It's a bit of a different story. When perfect strangers (or near strangers) tell you that you've erred or done wrong, it's easy to stand your ground. When it's your family and loved ones who look at you differently, that's when you begin to doubt your actions.

GRRM loves using Detective Cat to help guide the reader along in their quest to riddle the answer out for themselves. With hindsight the whole passage makes much more sense... well, sort of. What is abundantly clear is that whether or not there’s some form of mother’s madness taking over Cat it seems to have come at little to no cost to her ability to think things through any number of possibilities. Sadly, to her realization, it almost always comes back to one thing:

What does Cat do? She thinks. Hey look. First time I've used that word for Storm! Cat weighs all the possible options: an old lover, an old servant, someone from town, someone from the castle, a nickname for Lysa. She searches through her memories: Lysa's "late" moonsblood, her reaction to baby Robb, how the Tully's entered the War against the Targs. And through all this thinking she comes to the right conclusion.

Catelyn went to the sept and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father’s sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother, for Lysa and all the children they had both lost. I would have lit one more to the stranger, personally.

So would I, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized Cat is lighting candles to the gods in order of the events that just happened (learning the nature of Tansey).

Cat sits by her fathers bed and hears many strange things which, after much thinking, leads her to wisdom (the Crone...and Cat even thinks that she is now wise, wise in the ways of the world) about both her and her sister's own motherhood

Nor do the women. Brynden and Edmure prove this statement later, but Catelyn's entire arc is almost defined by the notion.

Agreed. Edmure can be a bit frustrating to read because he seems to make a lot of mistakes but I also feel bad for him at times because he's living in the shadow of his family. Hoster was a great lord, Lysa married well, and Cat not only married well but became the mother of a Queen. Edmure, though, thinks he has to go off to war to make his father proud and is often chided at by his eldest sister. So when he comes home to learn that Jaime Lannister is free, his first reaction is he had been charged to keep Jaime under lock and key and his sister didn't even respect *that* Couple this with Cat's internal thoughts that Edmure is not a lord yet (by virtue of Hoster still living) and it's easy to see that there is an undeniable tension in this family.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Very nice analysis, Bastardly!

Two main focal points in this chapter, the aftermath of Jaime's release and Lord Hoster's sin.

Regarding the first, I really appreciate that Catelyn owns her action and takes steps to make sure that she'll be the only one to be punished for it.

But regarding the action itself, I think that it was an act of desperation and, yes, partly, of "a mother's grief". I do agree with Bastardly, that Cat is not 100% sure of her actions... I can't help but think that there might be a supernatural connection here:

Going two chapters back, Cat wonders where her duty is and prays to the Seven for enlightment. And then, she talks with the Frey envoy... I am quite confident that the idea was born then, but did not act on it until the news of Bran and Rickon's deaths put it in motion.

Thinking about it all in cold blood, Cat's plan had tiny very little odds of success. Edmure's (and everyone else's) reaction and counter action should have been foreseen and accounted for, and as much as she can trust Brienne, as capable as she is, she is only one person... With the benefit of hindsight, we know now that it was quite an extraordinary feat that they survived and reached Kings Landing. Moreover, the usually (rightfully) distrustful Cat gives way to the uncharacteristically hopeful? wishful? Cat.

Hindsight also tells us that this action set up a transformative journey for Jaime (and for Brienne, too) and my gut feeling is that, somehow, he will be crucial in helping Sansa in some important way... I feel that this action might prove to be quite like when she would not leave Bran's sickroom for a moment, and as a result saving his life.

But as a planned action, I don't think it was a good one. Not because she wasn't right about the need to save her daughters, even if it was for Sansa alone (she was right, both politically and as a mother) but because, as I said before, it was too depending on extraordinarily good luck IMO, and because really, I do not think she'd condone this action, with the same motives, from another person, for other children; she would sympathize greatly and really understand their motives, but still would not condone (again, IMO).

Once more, I think there is a parallel with Jon Snow, as in they both released a captive enemy (Mance in Jon's case) in the long shot hope to save a loved one. As Jon thinks to himself, "if one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his". This understanding and acknowledgement of the double standards is really the convincing argument that it is not exactly right, and I feel that Cat's case here is very similar. But, I love them both all the more for feeling the way they did and for doing the "not exactly right" thing.

On Lysa's sad story, I think that Cat's grief and loss has given her an extra insight, to connect the dots and find the truth (with so little clues). What Hoster did was absolutely horrible, but the fact that his conscience torments him in his deathbed and needs forgiveness to let go, paints him in a little bit more sympathetic light. On the contrary, this chapter consolidated a disdain for Jon Arryn; "The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling." WTF, really?!!! The girl is forced to his bed, and he's like her grandfather, and all he cares about is his pride?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

ASOS, Catelyn II

The things we do…

Summary

Robb returns, but everything’s changed. Cat’s action is dealt with by summary procedure, only to function as ‘precedence’ for Robb’s. The grievous situation of their campaign is then discussed and the (extremely limited) alternatives for reaction are examined.

Observations

• The dynamic between mother/son is now fully reversed in Robb’s favour; however, Robb is still afraid of his mother’s criticism.
  
• Robb feels now as a man grown; he does not need a beard to reinforce his self image as one… but we only have to contrast that to “I took her castle and she took my heart” quote to see how so very young he truly is.
  
• There’s a feeling of growing mistrust –in the sense of unreliability– among the Stark/Tully inner circle.
  
• Many themes touched in this chapter: northern/southern identity, the Lord’s face/the mummer king, mother/son relationship, the “true king”, vengeance… almost everything that Cat’s arc is about.
  

Analysis

This is a well-structured chapter (is it just me or does GRRM choose the theatrical structure for his chapters quite often?), with a lot of dialogue and a lot of info about what has happened in between. So we get it all packed in a heavy dose, reinforcing the feeling that shit is really close to hitting the fan.

Scene 1: musings by Hoster’s sickbed

Cat is denied freedom of the castle and information, and she has to infer what happens from what little she can observe from her balcony or ‘fish’ from the maester, and –again– by using logic. She’s not even informed for her son’s coming home, but Grey Wind announces their return loud and clear.

It was the moment she had dreamt of and dreaded. Have I lost two sons, or three? She would know soon enough.

I find this line very sad, but on a different note it shows that Catelyn is prepared to face the consequences of her action full fare; because, losing Robb is really the worst that can happen to her now.

I really admire the way that the whole Frey debacle is set up in this scene, to be fully revealed in the third.

Scene 2: a king’s mummer show

Catelyn is presented to her king son as a ‘defendant’. There is the feeling of foreignness (again, in her own home!) and that something’s amiss in this scene, and it’s not just Grey Wind.

Cat is not shown all the cards yet, and she still has to infer what is happening from watching moods, reactions and strange faces.

The trial is done fast track and she’s cleared by the excuse of “a mother’s folly” with not much contention with the exception of Karstark (who is really being illogical). Too easy… or is it?

Here’s the crux of the issue:

You freed him without my knowledge or consent... but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love’s not always wise, I’ve learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts... wherever they take us. Don’t we, Mother?

I can’t help but think that Robb would have felt really relieved when he heard of what his mother had done; it gave him a way out, in a ‘solidarity among thieves’ sense. The “trial” and the whole scene in general feel highly orchestrated, and it only makes sense in the next, after we (just like Catelyn) are given all the info.

Scene 3: Cat, meet your in-laws

Shock number one: Robb got married to a lesser house sworn to the Lannisters and consequently, he lost the Freys. Pay off to Scene 1, dark clouds are gathering in the horizon.

Shock number two:

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer... or a king.

Her easy get away explained - rather unpleasantly, it must be said. There’s a sense of not-exactly-dishonesty-but. Furthermore, obligatory courtesy and calculated conduct introduces a layer of alienation between mother and son. In-laws is not an easy relationship, it’s a sensitive matter for both sides even in normal situations… even more so when it’s intertwined with politics and military alliances and it comes as a drawback. The omens are not good either: Grey Wind does not like them. And, that takes us to

Shock number three: “I am not a wolf, no matter what they call me.”

There’s an interesting contrast here between the ‘northern’ Robb and the ‘southern’ Catelyn, that takes us back to the first interaction between Cat and Ned in AGOT. Foreigner Cat gives a lot more faith to the northern lore and divine signs than her native husband and son. But there also seems to be a diverging direction between Ned and Robb regarding this matter: compare Ned’s

Bran’s wolf had saved the boy’s life, he thought dully. […] If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

to Robb’s

I used to think the same as you, that the wolves were our guardians, our protectors, until...” […] Until they told me that Theon had murdered Bran and Rickon. Small good their wolves did them.

Losing my religion seems to be in Robb’s mind at the moment, a feeling that Catelyn has also experienced in times of trial (as in Bran’s fall).

Nevertheless, this is a single moment of profound truth, where Robb’s vulnerability is exposed and we are led to understand what a tremendous impact the loss of Bran and Rickon (and Theon, too) had on Robb, in a chapter otherwise full of duplicity.

Scene 4: behind the scene

In the final part of the chapter, the dire situation they are in is examined behind closed doors, by the “core family”. Truths that can’t be told in full court can now be -and are- said (which is not always a welcome departure from the court’s obligatory mind-your-tongue attitude: From the way Robb looked at her, she could tell that it had been a long while since anyone had dared speak to him so bluntly), but, it seems to me, there is a game still on:

The snapping at Edmure seems too exaggerated to be just that. I mean, Robb and the Blackfish should not have considered the purpose of their strategy as self-explanatory; if it was too obvious, then why would they expect Tywin to fall in the trap? Moreover, it’s on the leaders to pass their orders effectively; if no initiative is to be taken, then they should have made that clear. Plus, the Blackfish, at least, should have known better of his nephew’s personality and consequently his likely path of action.

I suspect that the excessive blame on Edmure is orchestrated with the purpose to push him into accepting the very specific sort of amends that they have in mind, i.e. to become the substitute Frey groom. Cat quickly catches on this game when she notices that it’s “Not something” that would soothe Lord Walder’s pride but “Someone”.

Other than that, I think two quotes are very important to keep from this part:

“So long as Theon Greyjoy sits in your father’s seat with your brothers’ blood on his hands, these other foes must wait,” Catelyn told her son. “Your first duty is to defend your own people, win back Winterfell, and hang Theon in a crow’s cage to die slowly. Or else put off that crown for good, Robb, for men will know that you are no true king at all.”

The notion of the “true king” again (that is very much in line with what Davos told Stannis). Catelyn defines for us what the duties of a true king in Robb’s position are, and, though tertiary, revenge (and quite ugly, at that) is one of them. I think it is important to keep this in mind as it sketches the context that these characters operate in. It is especially important to understand Catelyn’s remaining arc beyond death. As is, in my opinion, the following:

“It is too late for ifs, and too late for rescues,” Catelyn said. “All that remains is vengeance.”

[BearQueen87]

ASOS, Catelyn II

The things we do…

Very nice job ShadowCat! In hindsight, this is one of those chapters where you look back and just go "oh...hell."

The dynamic between mother/son is now fully reversed in Robb’s favour; however, Robb is still afraid of his mother’s criticism.

Yes, like when Robb is explaining to Cat why he did not turn and head north to WF when they learned what happened, he is described as "defensive" as if he knows that what Cat is saying is true but he needs to fend it off with retorts.

This is a well-structured chapter (is it just me or does GRRM choose the theatrical structure for his chapters quite often?), with a lot of dialogue and a lot of info about what has happened in between. So we get it all packed in a heavy dose, reinforcing the feeling that shit is really close to hitting the fan.

Yes I agree. GRRM likes to stage these king and his audience moments--and he makes sure he does it with all the kings (and the Queen in Slaver's Bay) so that we get a sense of how each King (Queen) rules and handles moments like this. Renly does it circus style; dead King Robert couldn't be bothered and the one time we do see it (after Joffery is injured) he is obviously over the tedium of being King; Stannis has only a few close audience members and the focus is more on *them* than on him--hence why we only ever see it through Davos's eyes, who's focus is always more on Mel. Dany's can be coy (I am only a young girl) but also tend toward the brilliant (as well as focusing on how the world views beautiful women as unequal to men); and Robb knows to how command men and his audience but through Cat's eyes we still see the boy.

I really admire the way that the whole Frey debacle is set up in this scene, to be fully revealed in the third.

Agreed. I also enjoy how quickly Cat puts 2 and 2 together when she learns what Robb has done. I also like how quickly her thoughts go from "you're only a boy" to "we've lost the Freys"--it's like it happens all at once for her; she doesn't need it pointed out to her.

I can’t help but think that Robb would have felt really relieved when he heard of what his mother had done; it gave him a way out, in a ‘solidarity among thieves’ sense. The “trial” and the whole scene in general feel highly orchestrated, and it only makes sense in the next, after we (just like Catelyn) are given all the info.

This whole scene feels very ritualized or theatrical (to borrow your word). You have Cat and Robb and Karstark who are playing out specific roles that you'd find in any staged (mummer's farce) play. The "Betrayer" who did what they did for love; the "Good King" who is just and kind and admonishes while forgives; and the "Loudmouth" (best I can come up with at the moment...) who can't see reason and who's words demonstrate how ridiculous he's being. I understand that Karstark lost his sons and is grieving but his line of argument is rather...out there? He can't even frame a rational argument beyond that HIS needs are greater than the sum total. It's quite the role reversal from traditional gender depictions. Cat is the one who should be speaking with the sort of emotion Karstark is giving; the idea of her lost boys, her lost girls, her lost husband should be things Cat is pointing out to her son/King but Cat makes Robb acknowledge that she did it for the girls, not the other way around. There is no woman tearing out her hair and sobbing on the floor, in other words. It's Karstark who's giving the "desperate mother" tone.

Shock number one: Robb got married to a lesser house sworn to the Lannisters and consequently, he lost the Freys. Pay off to Scene 1, dark clouds are gathering in the horizon.

Blasted reader's hindsight....

I will say this, though. It's honorable of Robb to take Jeyne to wife. Think of how many lords slept with ladies and common-born women while out playing at war. How many of those lords married the women they bedded? Think about Brandon Stark (whom Cat thinks Robb sounds like at one point in this chapter)...he didn't marry Lady Barbery. Robb is Ned's son, even if it feels like Robb is beginning to reject some of Ned's northern ideas. Which brings us to...

Shock number three: “I am not a wolf, no matter what they call me.”

There’s an interesting contrast here between the ‘northern’ Robb and the ‘southern’ Catelyn, that takes us back to the first interaction between Cat and Ned in AGOT. Foreigner Cat gives a lot more faith to the northern lore and divine signs than her native husband and son. But there also seems to be a diverging direction between Ned and Robb regarding this matter: compare Ned’s

Any Stark that begins to think of themselves as not a wolf is in trouble. Arya thinks of herself as a wolf at HH and finally becomes Arya again after being a mouse and a ghost. Bran becomes a wolf by slipping into Summer. Sansa becomes more wolf life as she hardens to life in KL and the abuse that is inflicted upon her there. But Robb? Robb turns away from those Stark hallmarks. Did Robb and Jeyne marry in a godswood? Do we know?

I suspect that the excessive blame on Edmure is orchestrated with the purpose to push him into accepting the very specific sort of amends that they have in mind, i.e. to become the substitute Frey groom. Cat quickly catches on this game when she notices that it’s “Not something” that would soothe Lord Walder’s pride but “Someone”.

Yes, it would be interesting to know the sort of conversations Robb and Blackfish were having as they made their way back to RR.

Misc Notes

1. It's raining at RR again. It's always raining with Cat lately.

2. I love the Greatjon but I wish Maege Mormont would smack him upside the head for his, "women are made that way" comment.

3. We should know Sybell is up to something by the way she quickly ushers her family out of Cat's presence before Cat has time to say anything beyond a rather cool greeting to Jeyne.

[SeanF]

Another good summary.

One point that's interesting to me (and shows Catelyn's courage) is that she does speculate that she could be executed for freeing Jaime. Not that Robb would want to execute his mother, but if all his Bannermen were sufficiently angry, he might have had no choice.

[LordStoneheart]

Just a check in, sorry for the delay for the next chapter. To be completely honest, it was because of the recent episode of thrones (you know which one). It's really fouled my enjoyment of this franchise and put me off doing the chapter for a little bit. I'll have it up soon. Apologies again.

[Diregirl]

Do you think that Catelyn in some way represents the Mother (like an archetypal figure)? There is so much action she inadvertedly sets in motion just because she loves/wants to support/wants to avenge her children? She basically starts a war when she kidnaps Tyrion, she frees Jaime - rather questionable actions. She is not stupid or naive, she is a very self-aware and introspective character with a good grasp of what is prompting others to act, but when it's about her children, she just throws caution to the wind. Is this what we would expect of The Mother? That she would help her children, no matter what the cost?

[BearQueen87]

Do you think that Catelyn in some way represents the Mother (like an archetypal figure)? There is so much action she inadvertedly sets in motion just because she loves/wants to support/wants to avenge her children? She basically starts a war when she kidnaps Tyrion, she frees Jaime - rather questionable actions. She is not stupid or naive, she is a very self-aware and introspective character with a good grasp of what is prompting others to act, but when it's about her children, she just throws caution to the wind. Is this what we would expect of The Mother? That she would help her children, no matter what the cost?

I think she's a clever subversion of the archetype of Mother. When you think "Mother" as a universal construct what comes to mind, for me at least, is a sort of mother earth figure--Gaia and the like. Very ephemeral, nurturing, wise, loves all the little children (isn't that what the Mother is in Sam's son to Gilly?) This isn't to say that Cat isn't all those things--she is definitely nurturing, wise, and loves her children. But she's not some great otherworldly spirit either. She can be harsh, she can want justice and retribution and, while less common in Cat, she can be a little foolhardy. I think she's the archetype humanized.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think she's a clever subversion of the archetype of Mother. When you think "Mother" as a universal construct what comes to mind, for me at least, is a sort of mother earth figure--Gaia and the like. Very ephemeral, nurturing, wise, loves all the little children (isn't that what the Mother is in Sam's son to Gilly?) This isn't to say that Cat isn't all those things--she is definitely nurturing, wise, and loves her children. But she's not some great otherworldly spirit either. She can be harsh, she can want justice and retribution and, while less common in Cat, she can be a little foolhardy. I think she's the archetype humanized.

:agree:

Cat's character got me invested in the first place because she's a "real" woman. By that I mean an all-around character, all the aspects of a personality sufficiently developed.

Most mothers will do (almost) anything for their children when it matters, that's not exactly an archetype just the nature of the relationship. But this does not erase a person's strengths and flaws, personal ambitions and wants, grudges and soft spots and temperamental particularities that are not exclusively related to the motherhood aspect of one's life.

Even when her narrative role is that of The Mother, it is heavily coloured by her distinct personality. So I'd say that in her case, the archetype is fleshed out (that could be said about Cersei -her antithesis?- too, to a certain extent).

[LordStoneheart]

Do you think that Catelyn in some way represents the Mother (like an archetypal figure)? There is so much action she inadvertedly sets in motion just because she loves/wants to support/wants to avenge her children? She basically starts a war when she kidnaps Tyrion, she frees Jaime - rather questionable actions. She is not stupid or naive, she is a very self-aware and introspective character with a good grasp of what is prompting others to act, but when it's about her children, she just throws caution to the wind. Is this what we would expect of The Mother? That she would help her children, no matter what the cost?

I would dispute two points. 1. Taking Tyrion did not start a war. It motivated Tywin's retaliation, sure, but neither action was a declaration of war. In her case, it was a situation she had tried to avoid but when her identity was discovered she had to act. She definitely did not intend for events to spiral as they did. Here are some words Elio had about this instance just a few days ago:

Catelyn didn't want to be seen by Tyrion. When he did recognize him, that's when she acted. She never expresses concern for her own life. So... why did she take him?

Because he knew she was there, and would soon realize she was returning from King's Landing... and if he were truly the person who tried to have Bran killed, that would certainly frighten him and any co-conspirators. It might make them think that Bran had woken up, and had spoken of what he saw happen that led to their failed initial attempt to kill him. It might mean that the Starks were about to strike with that information...

.... unless, of course, the Lannisters struck first.

In other words, Catelyn was trying to prevent Tyrion getting to King's Landing with information that might have led to harm to Ned and her daughters. By holding Tyrion, she had a hostage against reprisal, she caused confusion that might obscure what was going on (it's worth noting that no one ever seems to come to realize she was ever in King's Landing; for his own reasons, Tyrion keeps that information to himself), and she had an opportunity to try and get at the truth.

2. I do not think she throws caution to the wind when it comes to her children. From the little things like wanting Bran to stop climbing, to willingly going into the Twins alone to negotiate with Walder Frey so Robb doesn't have to, she is very cautious about her children being in harm's way. She stays by Bran's beside for days after his fall, and this is what saves his life when the assassin comes. She insists that Robb have a personal guard during the Battle of the Whispering Wood, and in the aftermath we see how crucial this way. He might have been killed by Jaime had she not insisted. Releasing Jaime is a trickier topic, but this was done after her younger sons had been killed, as far as she knew, had heard nothing of Arya, and after Tyrion said at court the girls would be exchanged.

[Diregirl]

2. I do not think she throws caution to the wind when it comes to her children. From the little things like wanting Bran to stop climbing, to willingly going into the Twins alone to negotiate with Walder Frey so Robb doesn't have to, she is very cautious about her children being in harm's way.

=> Sorry, I was not being clear - she is extremely devoted to the welfare of her children; I meant when it comes to saving her children she stops looking at the bigger picture, what harm she might be doing to her House and their causes. Her children's lives are first and foremost on her mind, she is ready to save them whatever the cost and I thought that is what we would expect The Mother to do.

[SeanF]

2. I do not think she throws caution to the wind when it comes to her children. From the little things like wanting Bran to stop climbing, to willingly going into the Twins alone to negotiate with Walder Frey so Robb doesn't have to, she is very cautious about her children being in harm's way.

=> Sorry, I was not being clear - she is extremely devoted to the welfare of her children; I meant when it comes to saving her children she stops looking at the bigger picture, what harm she might be doing to her House and their causes. Her children's lives are first and foremost on her mind, she is ready to save them whatever the cost and I thought that is what we would expect The Mother to do.

She doesn't so much throw caution to the winds as take a calculated gamble.

[Tywin Manderly]

Well, all of the participants have done a great job in this re-read project. :cheers: :thumbsup:

After quite the lengthy absence because of health reasons, I'm very glad that that the prject is still going and that I can immerse myself in Catelyn again. :) :read:

[LordStoneheart]

ASOS, Chapter 20 - Catelyn III: The Treason of Karstark

Summary:

Catelyn looks at the bodies of Tion Frey and Willem Lannister in horror, as it reminds her of the fate of Bran and Rickon. Robb hears what the perpetrator Rickard Karstark has to say and deems it treason. Karstark insists it was vengeance and tries to shift the blame on to Cat. Robb delivers a harsh sentence (and epic line) for the culprits involved. Edmure vies for secrecy and life for Karstark but is rebuffed by the Blackfish and Robb. Karstark is brought to the Godswood and executed for treason. Before death, Karstark accuses Robb of kinslaying and renounces him as king. Afterwards, Catelyn goes to Hoster’s bedside and gives Jeyne some advice about marrying a man from the North.

Analysis:

Following ShadowCat’s example, I will be looking at this chapter in terms of dramatic structure.

Scene One: The Squires and the Lord

This chapter begins with death and reflection, both very important themes to Cat. The corpses are described at length until finally identified as Tion Frey and Willem Lannister. Before the description and naming, Cat connects them to Brandon and Rickon. Perhaps this is done intentionally to build up sympathy for children of the other side.

I have a feeling this scene has a parallel in drama somewhere, perhaps in a Greek or Shakespeare tragedy, but no specifics come to mind. Perhaps Richard III with the deaths of the George or Richard II, but I’m not sure.

There is a small paragraph about Edmure I’d like to address:

Her brother Edmure stood to Robb’s right, one hand upon the back of his father’s seat, his face still puffy from sleep. They had woken him as they had her, pounding on his door in the black of night to yank him rudely from his dreams. Were they good dreams, brother? Do you dream of sunlight and laughter and a maiden’s kisses? I pray you do. Her own dreams were dark and laced with terrors.

While some may see her thoughts as condescending, I think Cat is being sincere. She is the older sibling and I think a lot of her thoughts and actions towards Edmure reflect this. It’s a mix of motherly and sisterly affection, and that includes some less than warm moments. This thought is not one though.

Rickard Karstark is brought in and Robb begins his interrogation. Karstark is unyielding about his apparent “innocence” of the acting, using a few different reasons to justify and/or absolve himself from both the death of the hostages and of the men of Riverrun.

1. He denies it was murder:

“It was no murder, ser,” said Lord Rickard Karstark, no more discomfited by the ropes about his wrists than by the blood that trickled down his face. “Any man who steps between a father and his vengeance asks for death.”

…

“I saw your sons die, that night in the Whispering Wood,” Robb told Lord Karstark. “Tion Frey did not kill Torrhen. Willem Lannister did not slay Eddard. How then can you call this vengeance? This was folly, and bloody murder. Your sons died honorably on a battlefield, with swords in their hands.”

“They died,” said Rickard Karstark, yielding no inch of ground. “The Kingslayer cut them down. These two were of his ilk. Only blood can pay for blood.”

“The blood of children?” Robb pointed at the corpses. “How old were they? Twelve, thirteen? Squires.”

“Squires die in every battle.”

The last part reminds me of many readers’ defense of atrocities committed, be it Tywin, Gregor, or Dany. “Bad things happen to others, so what?”

So, here we have GRRM giving us a chapter devoted to showing just how wrong the actions of Rickard Karstark were. While I don’t think vengeance has left either Robb or Catelyn’s mind, this is was not an honorable or just action of war. And even though things are looking bleak for the rebellion, Robb is still ruling as King over the men who had raised him to that position, including Karstark. (Sidenote: that last line we might note to revisit if we continue with a Brienne reread.)

2. He tries to blame Catelyn:

Lord Karstark looked instead at Catelyn. “Tell your mother to look at them,” he said. “She slew them, as much as I.”

Catelyn put a hand on the back of Robb’s seat. The hall seemed to spin about her. She felt as though she might retch.

“My mother had naught to do with this,” Robb said angrily. “This was your work. Your murder. Your treason.”

“How can it be treason to kill Lannisters, when it is not treason to free them?” asked Karstark harshly. “Has Your Grace forgotten that we are at war with Casterly Rock? In war you kill your enemies. Didn’t your father teach you that, boy?”

In my mind this is an unfair shifting of the blame. While Catelyn herself does feel guilty, as seen by this quote:

Will they lay Sansa down naked beneath the Iron Throne after they have killed her? Will her skin seem as white, her blood as red? From outside came the steady wash of rain and the restless howling of a wolf.

As Robb said, Cat had nothing to do with Karstark’s decision. He acted of his own accord and was motivated only by vengeance. If we bring it back to his stated reason of Catelyn’s release of Jaime, we can see a clear difference, even if he can. Back in her third chapter of the first book, Cat deduces that Jaime Lannister pushed Bran out of the tower. She gets this confirmation when she visits him in the tower. She could have easily had him killed or maimed, but instead she thought of her daughters and their safety. Karstark’s actions were not “for” his children, even if they were motivated by their deaths. His murders of the hostages was for himself.

Robb ends the interrogation with an order to kill the men involved.

Robb rose to his feet. “Greatjon, keep Lord Karstark here till I return, and hang the other seven.”

The Greatjon lowered the spear. “Even the dead ones?”

“Yes. I will not have such fouling my lord uncle’s rivers. Let them feed the crows.”

One of the captives dropped to his knees. “Mercy, sire. I killed no one, I only stood at the door to watch for guards.”

Robb considered that a moment. “Did you know what Lord Rickard intended? Did you see the knives drawn? Did you hear the shouts, the screams, the cries for mercy?”

“Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it...”

“Lord Umber,” said Robb, “this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die. Mother, Uncle, with me, if you please.”

A reminder from Cat that even though Robb is still a young boy at heart, he is of the North:

The north is hard and cold, and has no mercy, Ned had told her when she first came to Winterfell a thousand years ago.

Scene Two: Robb’s Crown & The Godswood

The focus on Robb’s crown and what it has done to him continues. There are hints of regret of becoming a king, perhaps like his namesake King Robert.

Robb had donned his crown before coming to the hall, and the bronze shone darkly in the torchlight. Shadows hid his eyes as he looked upon the dead.

…

Robb took off his crown and placed it on the table before him.

…

Robb rubbed his temples, where the crown had left its mark in the soft skin above his ears.

Until finally we get this burst from him after thinking of all the options:

Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself... swore to myself... that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies... now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get so confused? Lord Rickard’s fought at my side in half a dozen battles. His sons died for me in the Whispering Wood. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister were my enemies. Yet now I have to kill my dead friends’ father for their sakes.”

…

Robb reached down with both hands, lifted the heavy bronze-and-iron crown, and set it back atop his head, and suddenly he was a king again. “Lord Rickard dies.”

Robb’s council discuss his options after news of the Karstarks departure, and each Tully has differing views to give him. Mostly, it’s an argument between Brynden and Edmure about how to deal with the deaths in terms of what the enemy will think. Edmure wants to cover it all up, Brynden thinks it’s a wasted effort. Cat doesn’t say much, only confirming that the Vale is not an option because of Lysa. In the end, Robb decides that Karstark has to die.

Many gather in the Riverrun Godswood to watch the execution at dawn. Karstark is to be executed in front of the heart tree.

Rain and leaves fell all around them as the Greatjon’s men led Lord Rickard Karstark through the press, hands still bound.

Kind of a grim sight, blood-red leaves of the heart tree falling as a man is to be executed. Robb stays true to his father’s words and executes Karstark himself. Before his death, Karstark tries a last-ditch effort to spare his life by calling Robb a kinslayer. I say last-ditch based on comments from this SSM:

The other factor, which you haven't raised, is degree of kinship. Killing a parent is probably worse than killing a sibling, but either one is a lot worse than killing a distant cousin. Lord Karstark was stretching that aspect of it when he tried to accuse Robb of kinslaying... but of course he was hoping to save his head.

The rain in this chapter takes on a cleansing aspect. The darkening faces of the hanged men are “washed” in the rain. When Robb swings the axe, it takes three blows to separate the head and many were sprayed with the blood.

Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. He stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks.

Scene Three: Southern Wives and Northern Husbands

Cat doesn’t see Robb for the rest of the day and retreats back to Hoster’s bedroom. Maester Vyman tells her Hoster will die soon. This is mixed with a possible suggestion that Robb should also give up his fight.

“He was ever a fighter,” she said. “A sweet stubborn man.”

“Yes,” the maester said, “but this battle he cannot win. It is time he lay down his sword and shield. Time to yield.”

To yield, she thought, to make a peace. Was it her father the maester was speaking of, or her son?

It’s hard for me to say whether it was truly the maester’s intentions to suggest that Robb should yield. Maesters are supposed to give council, and it would be a nice parallel to Maester Luwin trying to convince Theon to yield/take the black. (Theon also uses an axe to kill Farlen and takes more than one blow to cut off the head, though Robb’s execution is just while Theon’s is a mummer’s farce of “justice.”)

Queen Jeyne joins Catelyn in the solar for a conversation about Robb. Cat calls her “Your Grace,” which Jeyne isn’t comfortable with yet. Robb is angry and Jeyne gives us a clear contrast between the northern and southern lords, particularly Ned, Robb vs Tywin.

“I know. I told him, he should use a headsman. When Lord Tywin sends a man to die, all he does is give the command. It’s easier that way, don’t you think?”

“Yes,” said Catelyn, “but my lord husband taught his sons that killing should never be easy.”

I find this darkly humorous when thinking about the colors of each house. The Starks do the killing themselves while wearing grey and white, easily stained. The Lannisters use a headsman while wearing red and gold. There’s still a stain but not as obvious.

Jeyne makes a plea to Catelyn on how to please Robb. Even with the known Westerling/Spicer conspiracy, I think her plea shows how much she truly was affectionate with Robb and truly loved him, or as close as ‘love’ as their unconventional marriage could get.

“…I want to be a good wife to him, I do, but I don’t know how to help. To cheer him, or comfort him. I don’t know what he needs. Please, my lady, you’re his mother, tell me what I should do.”

And we get a great response from Catelyn, who has been in the North for the past fifteen years, or so:

“Sometimes,” Catelyn said slowly, “the best thing you can do is nothing. When I first came to Winterfell, I was hurt whenever Ned went to the godswood to sit beneath his heart tree. Part of his soul was in that tree, I knew, a part I would never share. Yet without that part, I soon realized, he would not have been Ned. Jeyne, child, you have wed the north, as I did... and in the north, the winters will come.” She tried to smile. “Be patient. Be understanding. He loves you and he needs you, and he will come back to you soon enough. This very night, perhaps. Be there when he does. That is all I can tell you.”

This wonderful paragraph embodies Catelyn’s character and arc in a direct way. She is a southern woman who found herself in the north, and had to learn what that meant and how to adapt. She admits that she could never completely ‘share’ the North with Ned, but she was patient, grew affection for Ned and he for her.

Before Jeyne leaves, Cat emphasizes the importance of an heir for Robb and reminds Jeyne once more of the cultural mix she has made.

“I’ll be with child soon, I promise. I pray to our Mother Above, every night.”

“Very good. I will add my prayers as well. To the old gods and the new.”

The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

Since the chapter ends here, I suppose we should address the Hips theory. I personally do not believe it, though I wish it were true, but GRRM does end the chapter with this line. The more likely explanation, it’s a bit of foreshadowing that Robb is in danger, and possibly some misdirection. If Jeyne is not pregnant, then the hips aren’t important.

One last quote as we move into the final few chapters in this arc:

Outside the thunder crashed and boomed, so loud it sounded as if the castle were coming down about their ears. Is this the sound of a kingdom falling? Catelyn wondered.

[BearQueen87]

ASOS, Chapter 20 - Catelyn III: The Treason of Karstark

Excellently done LordStoneheart! And nice to have the Re-Read back in full swing. Does anyone else think this is Cat's quietest chapter--not in terms of action, certainly a lot happens. But rather that Cat herself says very little; it's much more internalized as the men do a lot of talking (and in some cases blustering)

While some may see her thoughts as condescending, I think Cat is being sincere. She is the older sibling and I think a lot of her thoughts and actions towards Edmure reflect this. It’s a mix of motherly and sisterly affection, and that includes some less than warm moments. This thought is not one though.

I agree that Cat is being sincere. I didn't realize people thought she was condescending here. What Cat wants is for this nightmare to be over, one way or the other (though not over in the way it does eventually end). She wants Edmure to be happy and married and settled and beginning his lordship. And she wants herself to be far removed from the dark and dead things that haunt her own dreams.

Also, small note on Edmure here in this scene. His hand is gripping Hoster Tully's chair--indicating that he is the next Lord of Riverrun but his appearance does not match this new (soon to be official) position. He is almost childlike in his sleepiness and his conversation with Robb and the Blackfish (and a mostly silent Cat) show that he isn't as prepared for Lordship as he ought to be. While Robb, the Blackfish and even the Greatjon are at full capacity there is something "tired" about Edmure.

So, here we have GRRM giving us a chapter devoted to showing just how wrong the actions of Rickard Karstark were. While I don’t think vengeance has left either Robb or Catelyn’s mind, this is was not an honorable or just action of war. And even though things are looking bleak for the rebellion, Robb is still ruling as King over the men who had raised him to that position, including Karstark. (Sidenote: that last line we might note to revisit if we continue with a Brienne reread.)

I find Rickard Karsark to be incredibly tedious, and I hate that I feel that way because the man did lose his sons. But...it's war. He even acknowledges this, that squires die in battle all the time. And yet the loss of two of his sons at the hands of the Kingslayer, during a battle, are enough to make him seek bloody murder (sayeth Robb) during non combatants. His logic is...flawed. Or at least not logical but rather emotional. We talked about this in ShadowCat's last analysis, how Kartstark is being cast in the more "hysterical female" role whereas Cat is almost stoic in this scene. Yes, internally she is blaming herself and is a wreck, but she can't even bring herself to cry or to voice anything during the council meeting.

Also, Cat not crying is a nice call back to Alyssa Arryn.

Also, Brienne Re-Read? I vote yes. :)

Scene Two: Robb’s Crown & The Godswood

The focus on Robb’s crown and what it has done to him continues. There are hints of regret of becoming a king, perhaps like his namesake King Robert.

Robb had donned his crown before coming to the hall, and the bronze shone darkly in the torchlight. Shadows hid his eyes as he looked upon the dead.

…

Robb took off his crown and placed it on the table before him.

…

Robb rubbed his temples, where the crown had left its mark in the soft skin above his ears.

From King to Boy in a matter of one movement. Of course he puts it back on when he delivers his judgement. The King passes the sentence, the boy cannot.

Gods be good, why would any man ever want to be king? When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself... swore to myself... that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies... now I can’t even tell one from the other. How did it all get so confused? Lord Rickard’s fought at my side in half a dozen battles. His sons died for me in the Whispering Wood. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister were my enemies. Yet now I have to kill my dead friends’ father for their sakes.”

A wonderful speech by Robb. I think those are pretty words, Robb. Nice promises that under normal, less realistic circumstances would play out as you envision them. If you were not at war, if you were just back in Winterfell ruling the North like the North Kings of old, then I'm sure those words would be more than just promises. But reality is more murky and less clear. Reality has a way of showing us that our dreams are just that.

Robb’s council discuss his options after news of the Karstarks departure, and each Tully has differing views to give him. Mostly, it’s an argument between Brynden and Edmure about how to deal with the deaths in terms of what the enemy will think. Edmure wants to cover it all up, Brynden thinks it’s a wasted effort. Cat doesn’t say much, only confirming that the Vale is not an option because of Lysa. In the end, Robb decides that Karstark has to die.

*sigh* Edmure. Sometimes I wonder how Edmure ever planned to run Riverrun. I'm not sure he'd be a good Lord. He's not Hoster; he's not the Blackfish. He's not even Cat. I guess someone has to play the craven in this little show of ours but once again I think this chapter demonstrates that Edmure isn't quite ready to be the Lord of Riverrun. There is something too "tired" about him. He wants to make this whole debacle go away and more or less pretend it didn't happen. But as Robb, the Blackfish, and even Cat internally point out, Robb can't do that.

The rain in this chapter takes on a cleansing aspect. The darkening faces of the hanged men are “washed” in the rain. When Robb swings the axe, it takes three blows to separate the head and many were sprayed with the blood.

Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. He stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks.

Rain and blood always makes me think of Arya's last POV in Clash and how the rain will wash her bloody hands clean again. For Arya, it's liberation. It shows how adept and how cold she is becoming as murder becomes a more frequent occurrence. But for Robb, it's something different. There is rain and blood, but Robb chooses to sit in those bloody reminders, to not be clean again. Arya is learning that killing is easy, Robb is learning that killing is not.

I find this darkly humorous when thinking about the colors of each house. The Starks do the killing themselves while wearing grey and white, easily stained. The Lannisters use a headsman while wearing red and gold. There’s still a stain but not as obvious.

Nice. And it goes back to the fact that taking of Karstark's head "drenches" the dead and alive in his blood; almost as if there is some guilt to go around.

Since the chapter ends here, I suppose we should address the Hips theory. I personally do not believe it, though I wish it were true, but GRRM does end the chapter with this line. The more likely explanation, it’s a bit of foreshadowing that Robb is in danger, and possibly some misdirection. If Jeyne is not pregnant, then the hips aren’t important.

I've always thought the line was less foreshadow-y and more sad. It's a commentary on what is valued in a woman in that day and age. She should be able to bear children and that is all. It doesn't matter (much) if she is more capable than men in the ways of leading or war--Cat for instance has often proved to be the cooler head or clearer thinker in a room full of hot headed Northern men. But every time, it's "you are a woman and a mother and you do not understand the ways of war or men."

Outside the thunder crashed and boomed, so loud it sounded as if the castle were coming down about their ears. Is this the sound of a kingdom falling? Catelyn wondered.

The bolded word is very important. It's one that gets repeated A LOT in *THAT* chapter (the one we all know is coming)--and moreover the entire sentiment of a too loud din is repeated in *THAT* chapter. So yes Cat. Yes that is the sound you're hearing.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Great write up LordStoneheart, and the commentary by the BearQueen.

I don't have my books with me atm (I'll be away from home for a few days) just wanted to say that I liked the chapter analysis a lot!