Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn re-read project Part Two - Clash & Storm

[LordStoneheart]

Welcome to Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Reread Project

This is a place for discussion and analysis of Catelyn's character arc. A place for us to look in depth at her chapters, her observations, her role, and her journey.

I have the honor of being helped by the team of BastardlyRock and ShadowCat Rivers. We will hopefully be going through all of Catelyn's 25 chapters among others at a rate of once per week.

It has to be said, Catelyn is controversial. However, this is not a place to comment personal hatred, nor a place to bicker or insult. Unsupportable criticism is not appreciated. We will ask that everyone put their personal prejudices aside and look at her through fresh eyes.

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Chapter Links!

aGoT

Catelyn I
Catelyn II
Jon II
Catelyn III
Catelyn IV & Eddard IV
Catelyn V
Tyrion IV - Part One
Tyrion IV - Part Two
Catelyn VI
Tyrion V
Catelyn VII
Catelyn VIII
Catelyn IX
Catelyn X
Catelyn XI
aGoT Catelyn Retrospective



aCoK

Catelyn I
Catelyn II
Catelyn III
Catelyn IV
Catelyn V
Catelyn VI
Catelyn VII

aSoS

Catelyn I

Catelyn II

Catelyn III

[LordStoneheart]

A Clash of Kings, Chapter Seven: Catelyn I

Summary

Robb has just been prested with a crown in the style of the old Kings of Winter. Catelyn observes him in the Great Hall of Riverrun as he gives terms to Ser Cleos Frey, a Lannister relative. She tells Robb a wiser man would have been more generous with the terms but he felt it would be too much. Robb tells her that she is to go to the Twins and pick him out a wife, which Cat takes as him wanting to send her away. Robb makes the decision to send Theon as an envoy to the Iron Islands to secure ships for a taking of King's Landing, though Catelyn has spoken against it more than once. Brynden and Catelyn talk about Tywin being stationed at Harrenhal. They agree he will need to be drawn out if progress in the war effort will continue, and decide Renly would make a good option. If they pay him homage.

Observations

o This chapter isn’t very action packed, but it has a lot of meat to analyze

o Catelyn’s instincts are actually pretty great (such as distrusting Theon’s smile.)

o For the second time we see Robb with a sword laid over his lap. This may be important later.

o King Harren has terrible luck, finishing his castle the day the dragonlords show up

o A new host is amassing at Casterly Rock, led by Stafford Lannister

o The red comet is here, but neither Cat nor Brynden have any good notions about it

o More and more, the saga of Lord Beric is getting attention.

Analysis

The chapter comes after all of Catelyn's children with POVs have had theirs at least once (Arya twice.) All have thoughts of missing the rest of the family. The prolonged absence and the war is weighing heavy on all.

The crown on his head

It is no easy thing to wear a crown, Catelyn thought, watching, especially for a boy of

fifteen years.

Robb's crown is "winter" metals of the north (iron and bronze with nine swords as tips.) Right off the bat, Catelyn tells us that Robb is uncomfortable with kingship. This comes to us both literal and metaphorical. Robb fiddles with it a lot. Just as we had that dice rolling homage in Cat IX in Game, we have a rephrasing of the popular (mis)quotation "heavy is the head that wears the crown. When he is done with his terms to Cleos, he takes off the crown and calls it "this thing."

But we also Robb getting a bit more authoritative with his kingship. He snaps when Edmure calls him "boy" and reminds him that he is his king now. He tells Catelyn he can command her to leave now that he is a king. He believes he can "give" Balon a crown. It may be weighing heavy, but we can see some bravado/entitlement creeping out of him. In contrast to the other boy king in the realm, his crown truly does come with hard decisions and difficulty.

Cat's role in question

He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would

seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear.

Along with Robb's kingship comes a new question of what Catelyn should do. Back in Cat X, Bastardly mentioned that her story becomes slightly more stationary as she is a watcher, our eyes for Robb. He has asked her to leave with different options (picking him a wife at the Twins, going with Theon, then back to Winterfell.) And he's even considered ordering her to leave, a nice parallel to her mentioning the same thing back at Moat Cailan. (Back when he was just a boy and lord.)

Catelyn is intent on staying since her father is dying. Among the criticism of her, it's her not going back to Winterfell that pops up in the "bad mother" conversations. But Catelyn is also a daughter. Basically Hoster's only daughter, and maybe even only child. Edmure is noted as avoiding Hoster's sickroom and we all know about Lysa and her feelings for him. Brynden visits him, but a quarrelsome brother isn't the same as a child who Hoster seems to have always gotten along with. "Look for me, little Cat."

Cat's given reason for staying at Riverrun is very sympathetic and makes sense to me. (I also sympathize with Edmure, too, having been in a similar place he is at with Hoster.) The decision isn’t an easy one. Go home to see the children that she has been long away from and not be there for her father’s last moments and funerals, or stay with her father as he dies and hold off on seeing the children.

So I think this is where Robb truly is pulling away from her influence. Is this good or bad, mistake or not? I would say mistake. Robb’s crown did not bestow him more political skills when it touched his auburn hair. I believe he still needed Catelyn to act as a regent for him, and not even in name.

The envoys

We have two important envoys being sent out. Cleos Frey will bring Robb’s terms to Cersei Lannister, and Theon Greyjoy will bring the message of possible kingship for Balon. The two are kind of opposites. Cleos is treated as a hostage and sent with a guard. Theon is basically given freedom from being a hostage by Robb.

In wartime, it definitely looks safer to go the Cleos route, seeing as he returned and Theon did not. Tough decisions have to be made. Very unfortunately, Robb does make a colossal error here.

Tensions

There are two notable tense moments in this chapter.

Rickard:

Rickard isn’t happy about Robb’s terms. He still wants vengeance against Jaime for his sons. Robb is also hungry for the same vengeance, which is why it takes a lot of convincing from presumably Catelyn to get him to send terms.

Edmure

Edmure is eager to march on Harrenhal and criticizes the waiting since the host is getting small. Catelyn snaps at him, telling him it was partly his fault after convincing Robb to let the river lords to defend their lands. Robb also snaps at him for referring to him as “the boy” when trying to defend Robb’s decision.

Robb’s outburst is clearly a more petty reaction, sadly to say, something more fit for Joffrey. It’s definitely a burgeoning flaw.

Catelyn’s reasons for outburst though have been giving me a lot of trouble. I don’t know the right decision to make with the river lords. Is there even a right decision? United, they have the best chance of defeating Tywin Lannister, but apart it might be asking all of his new subjects to leave all their holdings, their whole lives, vulnerable.

I hope the discussion will shed a lot of light regarding the options Robb had.

The terms and the girls

“An offer had to be made though a wiser man might have offered sweeter terms.”

Catelyn thinks Robb should have been more generous with his terms, but Robb was not willing to. I doubt any sweeter would have really made a big difference ending the war, but is Catelyn right in this instance? Had Robb made a more appealing deal, would Cersei have really been swayed?

The subject of Sansa and Arya is another tough one for me. Catelyn gets to the heart of it right away:

“...but not for the girls?” Her voice was icy quiet. “Girls are not important enough, are they?”

She thinks this was “unworthy” of her, and I can see where she’s coming from. Robb may not have the maternal connection to the girls that Catelyn has, but he does love them. And I bet it doesn’t feel very great when your own mother tells not only the truth of the situation, that they really aren’t important enough for what she’s proposing, but that this limitation might make him look insensitive when he probably is just as scared and worried about the girls as she.

They don’t really make up after this. They have a fallout over her staying at Riverrun and Theon’s departure. It’s really unfortunate because of what Catelyn thinks here:

I can’t help but think of ShowDavos in relation to ShowStannis, the line about hard truths and them cutting both ways. Catelyn is doing something like this. She’s not afraid to tell Robb what he should hear. I think we see it multiple times in this chapter. The direwolf comment, pointing out Karstark’s anger, the sweeter terms comment, the girls comment, her opinion on Theon. All instances where she does not hesitate to tell him what he does not want to hear.

Catelyn's guilt

Living men had gone south, and cold bones would return. Ned had the truth of it, she thought. His place was at Winterfell, he said as much, but would I hear him? No. Go, I told him, you must be Robert’s Hand, for the good of our House, for the sake of our children... my doing, mine, no other...

I’ve come across the criticism that Catelyn never shows any remorse or guilt for her actions. Well, here she is blaming herself for basically the whole situation. What she and critics have in common, though, is forgetting about when she begged him to stay after Bran fell. ShadowCat had a good comment about this all the way back in Cat III

I was thinking about this passage:

She had begged Ned not to go, not now, not after what had happened; everything had changed now, couldn’t he see that? It was no use. He had no choice, he had told her, and then he left, choosing.

Besides the fact that Bran's accident and Catelyn's collapse could indeed be used as an acceptable excuse for Ned to reject Robert's offer, I think that all the reasons that Cat had argued about to convince Ned to accept, still stand. Ned is being reasonable here, albeit somewhat inconsiderate to Cat's feelings, to hold on to the decision she had influenced him to take. However, the second clause is perhaps telling of a resentment that her husband, the husband, is the one who has all the choice in all matters and all she can do is live with that.

It’s easy to see why Cat feels so guilty, but I wouldn’t consider these events a line of dominos. Cat telling him to go to King’s Landing didn’t lead right to his death.

A plan to rouse the lion

Brynden informs Cat that Stafford Lannister is amassing a new host at Casterly Rock that they will eventually have to face. While they talk, Cat comes up with an idea of how to get Tywin stirring from Harrenhal; another threat. They both look to Renly, and the chapter ends with Cat stating that he will want homage.

I just love that the idea comes from Catelyn after comparing with the show where she seems oblivious to anything besides her children. But we don’t need to go there. J

[BearQueen87]

A Clash of Kings, Chapter Seven: Catelyn I

Very nice job LordStoneheart!

So I think this is where Robb truly is pulling away from her influence. Is this good or bad, mistake or not? I would say mistake. Robb’s crown did not bestow him more political skills when it touched his auburn hair. I believe he still needed Catelyn to act as a regent for him, and not even in name.

I think the needs Cat too.

I also think we can compare Robb/Cat to another son/mother duo--Joff and Cersei. Joff became King after Robert died and we see over the course of ACOK and ASOS that he begins to loosen the grip Cersei had on him. He starts shouting about how a King can do as he likes and going to extremes when provoked. Tyrion tries to reign in Joff but Cersei's not much help. Robb never goes as far as Joff (thank the gods) but I do think he has a bit of entitlement and bravdo going on as you pointed out. Cat is still trying to stay in Robb's counsel and I think Cat is trying to remind her son that he JUST became King. His lords may declared him as such and he might have a crown but there is more to being a good king than just those two things.

Also, bit of a Targ reference here. Dany thinks in ADWD how one of the Aegon's once said that a crown should never rest easy on a rulers head. It certainly isn't resting easy on Robb--literally and metaphorically.

In wartime, it definitely looks safer to go the Cleos route, seeing as he returned and Theon did not. Tough decisions have to be made. Very unfortunately, Robb does make a colossal error here.

He does make a huge mistakes, but does anyone else think it might parallel Cat's mistake in trusting LF way back in AGOT? Cat knew the boy Petyr and we have the chapter when she takes Tyrion and she's drowning in memories of her childhood with LF...well, isn't Robb doing something similar? This isn't just Theon, Ned's hostage...it's Theon his boyhood friend. They played together, trained together, ect.

Catelyn’s reasons for outburst though have been giving me a lot of trouble. I don’t know the right decision to make with the river lords. Is there even a right decision?

I think that last question is something GRRM plays with a lot...a lot a lot. For almost all the characters--Dany, Theon, Jon, Jaime.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That was a great write up, LordStoneheart!

Observations

o This chapter isn’t very action packed, but it has a lot of meat to analyze

o Catelyn’s instincts are actually pretty great (such as distrusting Theon’s smile.)

o For the second time we see Robb with a sword laid over his lap. This may be important later.

o King Harren has terrible luck, finishing his castle the day the dragonlords show up

o A new host is amassing at Casterly Rock, led by Stafford Lannister

o The red comet is here, but neither Cat nor Brynden have any good notions about it

o More and more, the saga of Lord Beric is getting attention.

As you said, this is a very rich chapter, with a lot of themes at play.

It struck me as a fail from Cat's part, that she didn't recognize the trigger for Theon's smile:

Once he does so, I shall release my own captives taken in the Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps, save Jaime Lannister alone, who will remain my hostage for his father’s good behavior.”

She studied Theon Greyjoy’s sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.

She's right, of course, that Robb should never trust Balon (because by releasing Theon, he actually frees Balon's hand regardless what would be Theon's stance; an hypothetical 'prudent' Balon could just keep Theon at Pyke and attack the North as planned with Theon's loyalty not playing any role whatsoever...). The reasons she presents to Robb are based on logic and pragmatism.

BearQueen's observation on Robb-Theon and Cat-LF parallels is really astute:

He does make a huge mistakes, but does anyone else think it might parallel Cat's mistake in trusting LF way back in AGOT? Cat knew the boy Petyr and we have the chapter when she takes Tyrion and she's drowning in memories of her childhood with LF...well, isn't Robb doing something similar? This isn't just Theon, Ned's hostage...it's Theon his boyhood friend. They played together, trained together, ect.

It's very understandable that Robb would trust Theon as a brother. Add to that the fact that he's at that age when defying your mother is part of a boy's natural proccess of growing up, and you have the recipe of disaster.

But I wonder, had Catelyn trully understood the meaning of Theon's smile, and had she tried to reason Robb by telling him that it would not be fair to Theon, to put him in a position that would try his loyalties and force him to chose between friend and blood family, would he (Robb) understand?

Or is it too much to ask for Cat, to see into Theon's trauma? After all, is it the benefit of hindsight that allows us to see the connection?

Speaking of parallels, this one also reminds me of Sansa defying her father and going to Cersei. Given their respective roles and positions, the one does it in secret while the other declares it loud and open, but is the same drive: the adolescent child questioning and defying the wisedom and authority of the parent. We've all been there, done that, only the possible consequences of our defiance were vastly lower in scale and quality... The cross-gender parent-child relationship is important too, I think.

The red comet discussion is interesting too. Everyone gives it the meaning they want it to have, I believe that this conversation poses the question whether the comet in itself has any meaning at all. To the pessimist Cat it has the Lannister crimson color... (whenever I read this passage, especially the "I wish I had their faith" part, this song always comes to mind). I think that Brynden's "dull" and ex post interpretation is the most apt: “Was there ever a war where only one side bled?”

The crown on his head

It is no easy thing to wear a crown, Catelyn thought, watching, especially for a boy of fifteen years.

This chapter paints Robb as the boy king. A capable one, but boy nonetheless.

I think that the extra weight of the crown has taken a toll on Robb and, as a coping way, along with the sense of authority that it gives him, has made him regress to boy a bit... Robb is the boy repeatedly in this chapter, both in appearence and in behaviour, but this is where it's most obvious:

“Don’t call me the boy,” Robb said, rounding on his uncle, his anger spilling out all at once on poor Edmure, who had only meant to support him. “I’m almost a man grown, and a king-your king, ser. And I don’t fear Jaime Lannister. I defeated him once, I’ll defeat him again if I must, only...” He pushed a fall of hair out of his eyes and gave a shake of the head. “I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but...”

Here, he does it all: reminds that he's a king [a no-no as per Tywin :)], takes offence at the notion that he might be affraid [typical boyish response and shame on you, Cat, for sassing at your son this way], he's got the patently adolescent unruly hair that get into your eyes in the worst timing possible, when you want to play the adult and, what's the most important, he doesn't know what he wants to do...

Which IMO, is the crux of the issue and upon further analysis I think that it reflects bad not only to Robb (who is a boy, after all), but to everyone in his closer circle, Cat included: they have no strategy.

Really, after Ned's beheading, what's the goal of Robb's campain? I think that their actions are basically responsive, not culminating to one defined ultimate purpose but serving many, at times mutually exclusive, peripheral necessities. No wonder why they end up snapping at each other... This chapter gives me the feeling of a dead end, and of doom, until the end when the possibility of an alliance lets in a glimmer of hope.

[Hrafntýr]

Excellent analysis, Lord Stoneheart! And I, too, really enjoyed BearQueen's discussion of the parallels between Robb and Joffrey, and of Robb/Theon and Cat/Petyr.

<snip>

This chapter paints Robb as the boy king. A capable one, but boy nonetheless.

I think that the extra weight of the crown has taken a toll on Robb and, as a coping way, along with the sense of authority that it gives him, has made him regress to boy a bit... Robb is the boy repeatedly in this chapter, both in appearence and in behaviour, but this is where it's most obvious:

“Don’t call me the boy,” Robb said, rounding on his uncle, his anger spilling out all at once on poor Edmure, who had only meant to support him. “I’m almost a man grown, and a king-your king, ser. And I don’t fear Jaime Lannister. I defeated him once, I’ll defeat him again if I must, only...” He pushed a fall of hair out of his eyes and gave a shake of the head. “I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but...”

Here, he does it all: reminds that he's a king [a no-no as per Tywin :)], takes offence at the notion that he might be affraid [typical boyish response and shame on you, Cat, for sassing at your son this way], he's got the patently adolescent unruly hair that get into your eyes in the worst timing possible, when you want to play the adult and, what's the most important, he doesn't know what he wants to do...

Which IMO, is the crux of the issue and upon further analysis I think that it reflects bad not only to Robb (who is a boy, after all), but to everyone in his closer circle, Cat included: they have no strategy.

Really, after Ned's beheading, what's the goal of Robb's campain? I think that their actions are basically responsive, not culminating to one defined ultimate purpose but serving many, at times mutually exclusive, peripheral necessities. No wonder why they end up snapping at each other... This chapter gives me the feeling of a dead end, and of doom, until the end when the possibility of an alliance lets in a glimmer of hope.

It's this that stood out to me most in reading this chapter, and indeed it's a sinking feeling that started with the whole King in the North business, which felt like a possibly terrible misdirection of focus. I feel like we're invited to draw comparisons to Robert's Rebellion, to see the similarities and the differences. I mean, we've got a situation in which we could see the Riverlands, Stormlands and Vale once more aligned against the IT. But in RR, it was only after the well-executed war achieved by strategic deployment of the allies' forces that anyone thought about the question of naming a new king. Here we've got the presumptive crowning of several kings, which renders impossible a united front against the IT, and thus, probably, a chance of victory. I agree that the lack of any real strategy, of even working through the aims of this campaign, gives a sense of futility to the KitN business, and makes us consider yet again the possible emptiness of the crown symbol that inspires so many actors in the books. Cat is the only one who has real aims, i.e. she wants her daughters back, but this is an aim that she knows to be too insignificant for the high-falootin rhetoric of KitN. There is hope introduced at the end with the idea of parley with Renly, and the parallels with RR suggest that an alliance between the three kings (and even 4 kings, had Theon succeeded) could have been successful. I believe, though, that we'll have the chance to get more of the "boy king" critique when Cat confronts Stannis and Renly, so sorry if I'm jumping the gun a bit here.

[RainGhost]

Excellent analysis of a fascinating chapter Lord Stoneheart.

The crown on his head

It is no easy thing to wear a crown, Catelyn thought, watching, especially for a boy of

fifteen years.

This chapter comes after Jon’s, where Mormont tries to make him feel (even more) jealous of Robb by telling him how great it is to be king. Here we see the reality. For me the interesting thing is how Robb’s crowning leads to a sudden power shift in his relationships with Catelyn and Edmure.

Edmure and Robb have gone from equal status to king/subject but at the same time they’re nephew/uncle. I think this is a situation they’re both uncomfortable with, hence Edmure calling Robb ‘boy’ and Robb’s very Joffrey-like reaction to that.

Cat's role in question

He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would

seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear.

I like the parallel with Moat Cailin and similarly, Robb threatens to command Catelyn but doesn’t actually do it, possibly because he knows she should really be the one giving him commands. Catelyn’s identities as Lady Stark, Cat Tully, Robb’s mother, Bran & Rickon’s mother and Sansa & Arya’s mother all come into conflict here. Despite this, she knows what she wants to do. In hindsight, she should have gone back to Winterfell but with the information Cat has at the time, of course she would want to be with her dying father rather than her 2 sons who are safe at home.

I think Robb wants to send Catelyn away because he needs her too much, as stupid as that may sound. With Ned dead, he’s now ruling in his own right. Rightly or wrongly, he feels he has to stand on his own two feet and I think he’s worried that if he listens to Cat too much he’ll end up depending on her entirely. Their relationship has suddenly changed and is lacking the balance of Ned and Cat’s in AGoT (Lord/Lady, husband/wife, father/mother); I don’t think Robb can separate Lady Stark from Mother. Of course, poor Cat feels that her son doesn’t want her but I think the opposite is true.

Catelyn should really be Robb’s regent but because of an unusual set of circumstances, this is not the case. Robb definitely still needs Lady Stark’s counsel, though, not only because (along with Lord Manderly) she’s got the best political mind in the kingdom but also because she tells him the truth, which is an absolutely essential quality in a king’s adviser (and also quite rare). Fortunately, Catelyn ignores her son and comes up with a good plan to treat with Renly.

@BearQueen87 As well as comparing Robb/Theon to Cat/Petyr, you could compare it to Ned/Robert. Ned was right in thinking that Robert was loyal to him but he only saw Robert’s good points and not his flaws (although he did start seeing Robert in a new light as AGoT progressed), and ultimately the faith and trust he put in Robert cost him. Fostering works in terms of creating strong bonds.

@ShadowCat Rivers Theon smiles all the time, so it wouldn’t seem unusual for him to smile at the Jaime comment. Catelyn tells Robb the right things but he is refusing to listen; Tullys (and teenage boys) can be stubborn. I don’t think Robb is prepared to use Theon as a hostage. The whole situation is complicated and awkward for everyone involved and unfortunately has disastrous results for all.

As for their overall strategy, I think the ‘peace terms’ act more like ‘war aims’. I don’t think it’s accidental that Robb reads out the ‘peace terms’ in front of the entire court. It's a declaration of what they're actually fighting for and there's something in there for everyone (except Karstark apparently).

[ShadowCat Rivers]

@ShadowCat Rivers Theon smiles all the time, so it wouldn’t seem unusual for him to smile at the Jaime comment. Catelyn tells Robb the right things but he is refusing to listen; Tullys (and teenage boys) can be stubborn. I don’t think Robb is prepared to use Theon as a hostage. The whole situation is complicated and awkward for everyone involved and unfortunately has disastrous results for all.

You're propably right, I might just have too high expectations from Cat, as she's generally very perceptive and to the point.

[Julia H.]

A very exciting beginning for the new re-read. :)

The situation between Robb and Theon also shows how imperfect the hostage policy is. (Admittedly, they have nothing better to replace it with.) Perhaps it can be said that friendship and trust between the hostage child and the lord's child is one of the points. If they grow up as friends (if not exactly as brothers), they will be less likely to start a war when they are adults. Unfortunately, this friendship does not include the father of the hostage, and Robb makes a grave mistake when he thinks Theon being trustworthy will also make Balon trustworthy. Another flaw of the hostage policy is that it works only as long as the other party believes that his child would indeed be executed if he rebelled or until he decides to sacrifice the child. As we see, Theon's decade-long absence totally alienated Balon from him, and he is prepared to attack the North regardless of Theon. In this case, what would Robb do? Killing Theon would only mean giving up his hostage - a perfectly useless hostage by the way, but one who is also a friend. Letting him live would mean the threat was never serious, and his lords would not like it. Of course, Theon might appreciate it... It's difficult.

[LordStoneheart]

Great comments so far...

On the Theon parallel and smile, I hadn't seen them before. Now that it's pointed out, I think it's definitely intentional. I think Cat's distrust of Theon is all we need from her since she obviously can't convince Robb to keep him as hostage. The only thing that I think she should have done different is tell Robb it's what Ned wanted (if she remembers this.) It's just very unfortunate that Robb was too blinded by his brotherly relationship to listen to sense. I think we might have something like that for almost every major character. Ned, Cat, Sansa, now Robb. (Dany has many trust issues, but none quite as conflicting.)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

<snip> Cat is the only one who has real aims, i.e. she wants her daughters back, but this is an aim that she knows to be too insignificant for the high-falootin rhetoric of KitN. There is hope introduced at the end with the idea of parley with Renly, and the parallels with RR suggest that an alliance between the three kings (and even 4 kings, had Theon succeeded) could have been successful. I believe, though, that we'll have the chance to get more of the "boy king" critique when Cat confronts Stannis and Renly, so sorry if I'm jumping the gun a bit here.

I agree.

But I think that a problem in Cat's general notion about how to get them back is that she ties it with an overall peace agreement. Even if she's right about peace (which, IMO, is not a given in this particular case, because as much as peace is always desirable, it is not always feasible).

I believe that she would have more chances to see her aim succeed, if she could alternatively propose a hostage exchange --Jaime for the girls-- independently of the continuation/suspension of hostilities. Such things do happen, it wouldn't be unprecedented, the Lannisters in KL (Cersei and Tyrion) do want Jaime back (missing Arya might be a problem, though) and Cat would have more arguments in her arsenal to convince Robb, of practical / political nature, as to how the girls could be assets in their overall war effort, than only appeal to emotion, "your sisters".

But yes, the KitN does indeed hinder both Cat's aims as well as their overall options. It also seems that has taken away some good sense...

Especially GreatJon's behaviour in the great Hall seems so foolish, that he appears to be a boy much younger than 15-years-old Robb.

[Hrafntýr]

I agree.

But I think that a problem in Cat's general notion about how to get them back is that she ties it with an overall peace agreement. Even if she's right about peace (which, IMO, is not a given in this particular case, because as much as peace is always desirable, it is not always feasible).

I believe that she would have more chances to see her aim succeed, if she could alternatively propose a hostage exchange --Jaime for the girls-- independently of the continuation/suspension of hostilities. Such things do happen, it wouldn't be unprecedented, the Lannisters in KL (Cersei and Tyrion) do want Jaime back (missing Arya might be a problem, though) and Cat would have more arguments in her arsenal to convince Robb, of practical / political nature, as to how the girls could be assets in their overall war effort, than only appeal to emotion, "your sisters".

But yes, the KitN does indeed hinder both Cat's aims as well as their overall options. It also seems that has taken away some good sense...

Especially GreatJon's behaviour in the great Hall seems so foolish, that he appears to be a boy much younger than 15-years-old Robb.

That's a really good point about separating out the hostage situation from an overall peace agreement. You are absolutely right, though, that Arya's disappearance would probably be a sticking point that would make such an exchange impossible, since I doubt that the Northern side would be inclined to believe the Lannisters if they claimed that they didn't have Arya. But it's definitely the case that if the Northern side had Sansa back that it might open up some political possibilities for their side (not that I love the idea of Sansa being used yet again to broker an alliance). But just imagine: at this point you've got Renly/Margaery happening: imagine if Sansa/Willas were proposed, for example, which would make a bloc of Reach/Stormlands/North/Riverlands. But I suppose that Cat can't be blamed for thinking of her daughters' return only in personal terms, rather than political terms.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That's a really good point about separating out the hostage situation from an overall peace agreement. You are absolutely right, though, that Arya's disappearance would probably be a sticking point that would make such an exchange impossible, since I doubt that the Northern side would be inclined to believe the Lannisters if they claimed that they didn't have Arya. But it's definitely the case that if the Northern side had Sansa back that it might open up some political possibilities for their side (not that I love the idea of Sansa being used yet again to broker an alliance). But just imagine: at this point you've got Renly/Margaery happening: imagine if Sansa/Willas were proposed, for example, which would make a bloc of Reach/Stormlands/North/Riverlands. But I suppose that Cat can't be blamed for thinking of her daughters' return only in personal terms, rather than political terms.

Yes, and I don't blame her for wanting an overall peace agreement either - she also wants Robb safe...

The thing is, on re-read the lack of strategy and even a defined and agreed upon aim of the Stark campain is so painfully apparent, that I kind of engage in wishful thinking...

(Btw, I agree: not the best thing to happen to the girls - on the other hand, their chance to build a future for themselves with more agency, is totally due to the tragedy that befell on their family).

[BastardlyRock]

A Clash of Kings: Catelyn II (Chapter 22)

Catelyn meets with Renly, having been sent by Robb as the only one left capable of parleying. After arriving at Renly's camp Cat views the end of a tourney play out and is treated to dinner that night. While walking with "King" Renly and discussing politics, they are interpreted with news that "King" Stannis has laid siege to Storm's End...

Quick Observations

- So good to see Cat somewhat back in the action

- She hasn't lost her touch

- Her omnipresent understanding of the situation never fails to amaze

Sweet Dreams

As she slept amidst the rolling grasslands, Catelyn dreamt that Bran was whole again, that Arya and Sansa held hands, that Rickon was still a babe at her breast. Robb, crownless, played with a wooden sword, and when all were safe asleep, she found Ned in her bed, smiling.

Ah, if only. We've all had those dreams, the ones too good to be true, the ones we hated waking up from. As we would wake up we would slowly realize what was so wrong about the fantasy world we'd escaped to: it was all together too good. There was no possible way that could be real life, and now that we'd awoken we were faced yet again with the problems of the real world. Dawn came cruel, a dagger of light. And just like that, it was all over. What was it that Catelyn forced herself up and at 'em for? What continued to drive her? Was it the hope that she could one day reclaim that idyllic life she'd moments ago been dreaming of? It was, in fact, already slipping away from her. Ned was dead, and Cat was still coming to terms with that fact. Given no time to mourn, this was a process that we would continue to see for the remainder of her story arc. At this point Cat was driven by two things: her children, and her duty. (Family and Duty). In Robb those values overlapped. Robb was her firstborn, but now he was also her king, and while she counseled him as a mother she also now found herself serving him as her king.

A quick aside....

"There are birds in this grass. Would you fancy a roast quail to break your fast this morning?" ... Catelyn ain't got no time for roast quail Ser Wendel! She's got many miles to go before she sleeps.

Robb's Gamble, and Cat's Perceptiveness

A shining moment early in this chapter comes when Cat recalls Robb convincing her that she's the one he needs to meet with Renly. "Now, will you go to Renly for me, or must I send the Greatjon?" It brings a smile to Cat's lips remembering her son's "ploy", regardless of how transparent a threat it was. This was also a fantastic little moment that captured the new found dichotomy of Cat's relationship with Robb. As a mother she chastises him for not sitting put. "We've planted seeds, let them grow." His rebuttal is that they've heard nothing from Lysa, and when Cat calls him out on marching directly into Tywin's trap, Robb simply responds, "I said nothing of Harrenhal." Much and more could be said of Robb's combat intuition for a 15 year old, and since we only ever truly see him through Cat's eyes it seems an appropriate opportunity to point out his prowess when we can. Even Cat seems impressed, and at this moment her maternal counseling seems to dwindle and she kicks into duty mode, acknowledging that she is needed for this task, and the King is asking it of her. It's really an interesting moment where we get to see those values (which are the cornerstones of Cat's character) conflicting and interacting with one another. I think it's fair to say she handles it about as well as any of us would.

It's made apparent that Cat has no love for this task. She doesn't look forward to meeting with Renly, a conversation which she fears will go poorly given that Robb holds him as no true claimant. Ser Colen of Greenpools meets with Cat and her party as they move south. Cat declares, "Our business is urgent," and that she is "an envoy from (her) son, Robb Stark, the King in the North, to treat with Renly Baratheon, the King in the South." And in one of the greatest passive aggressive moments of all time Ser Colen responds, "King Renly is the crowned and anointed lord of all the Seven Kingdoms." Wow, this guy.

Cat decides to trust in Ser a-hole's honor and follows him to the camp. She's impressed with the number of campfires, taken aback really, but of course she doesn't let that show, she's far too cool for that.

Boys with their Toys

Cat enters the camp to find a tourney underway, and is understandably taken aback. Real enemies on every side and half the realm in flames and Renly sits here playing at war like a boy with his first wooden sword. A pretty awesome thought, if only she had the courage to say it to his face... oh wait, Cat is a badass, and so she does: "King Robb is warring, my lord," Catelyn replied with icy courtesy, "not playing at tourney."

With that said I do have to nitpick... upon discovering Brienne, the victorious blue knight, is a daughter, Cat is horrified. And what's more, Cat thinks, Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman? Woah. Pretty backwards thinking from such a strong and empowered female character, in my humble opinion. Maybe that's my fault, for building Cat up as a sort of woman's rights, 'a woman don't need no man' sort of gal... one who would advocate a woman being true to herself and not relying on superficial qualities like skin-deep beauty to get by in life, and so it's sort of jarring to me. But given her intense and wholesome desire to see her daughters married off to capable men early on in AGoT I guess I shouldn't be too shocked.

This was after all, pretty standard thinking for medieval era citizenry, so I digress...

Before the conversation with Renly is over, Lord Mathis Rowan shows that he in no way can comprehend the value of a prisoner of war when he learns Jaime has been taken alive and declares "Still alive?" Even Renly can't comprehend the value of a son of the commander of the enemy forces when he ponders "It would seem the direwolf is gentler than the lion." It gets better. "I call it weak." (adds) Lord Randyll Tarly. Honestly, did Cat just stumble into amateur hour? Are they all really so shocked that the Starks find Jaime to be a valuable POW?

That Night, as Cat Continued to Prove She Was the Smartest Person Present...

They are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

Well I'll say, if Cat's transformation to full-blown pessimistic Stark isn't apparent by now you simply haven't been reading close enough. Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought, For me it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. The relationship that would soon blossom into beauty between Cat and Brienne sure started out shaky enough. Regardless, Cat's perception is dead-on, as always. The George presents so many little things as fact in his writing that it can be easy to forget these are the observations of the chapter POV character. One such example comes here as Cat is asked to walk with Renly, and Brienne asks to accompany him and he turns her turn. His words seemed to strike the girl harder than any blow she had taken that afternoon. Those aren't the types of observations made by an unperceptive character. Cat had an amazing insight into so many other characters it's a little uncanny, she can surmise a situation and glean the most important information, emotions and reactions in seconds.

Renly goes on to regale Cat with the tale of how he came to leave King's Landing, abandoning her husband because he refused to help him take the throne. Cat can't help but posit that Ned may still be alive had Renly stayed to help her husband.

Renly only makes himself even more of an ass when he talks about how little he cares for Stannis's claim over his own, and that Robb "can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes, so long as he bends the knee and does me homage as his overlord." (Honestly, who even cared when shadow baby assassin killed this guy?)

Sure enough, Cat's intuition proves true YET AGAIN, and they are interrupted by a rider claiming that Storm's End is being besieged. Silly Renly immediately wonders how Tywin could have left Harrenhal without his knowing, but oh no no ... "These are no Lannisters, my liege. It's Lord Stannis at your gates, King Stannis, he calls himself now." And so now Cat is like, yes, I was literally just telling you to watch out for this.

[aje12]

Fantastic Analysis BastardlyRock!

With that said I do have to nitpick... upon discovering Brienne, the victorious blue knight, is a daughter, Cat is horrified. And what's more, Cat thinks, Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman? Woah. Pretty backwards thinking from such a strong and empowered female character, in my humble opinion. Maybe that's my fault, for building Cat up as a sort of woman's rights, 'a woman don't need no man' sort of gal... one who would advocate a woman being true to herself and not relying on superficial qualities like skin-deep beauty to get by in life, and so it's sort of jarring to me. But given her intense and wholesome desire to see her daughters married off to capable men early on in AGoT I guess I shouldn't be too shocked.

This was after all, pretty standard thinking for medieval era citizenry, so I digress...

People often have a problem with Cat's initial perception of Brienne, so I will add my take on the scene. Catelyn is a strong and empowered female character, but she is also a realistic medieval character, and a character that has largely accepted her place in a patriarchal world. That doesn't mean she doesn't chafe against the limits on her gender ("Girls are not important enough are they""A woman can rule as wisely as a man"), but it means she acknowledges and accepts that for a woman to live a successful life, she must fit into a certain blueprint, one that one of her daughters revelled in, and the other opposed strongly.

Catelyn is a very practical, realistic woman, and thus she acknowledges that a woman that does not comply with traditional beauty standards (Brienne is objectively quite ugly, almost deformed), or traditional female pursuits, will have a very tough time, just as Brienne does the poor woman. Realistically, a medieval women "do need a man" in order to live any sort of normal life. It doesn't make her any less supportive of women to acknowledge it. Besides her response isn't so much condescending or negative as empathetic- I think the quote is more Catelyn when the next line is included.

Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman? Pity filled Catelyn's heart.

[BastardlyRock]

I think those are very fine points aje12! It certainly rounds out Cat''s perception here, nice job :thumbsup:

[BearQueen87]

A Clash of Kings: Catelyn II (Chapter 22)

Well done BastardlyRock!

This is a nice transition chapter as we (and Cat) move from King to King. Renly and Robb present an interesting study in kingship, as do Robb and Renly's men, something Cat comments on with her "these are the knights of summer and winter is coming." Both Renly and Robb are young and were declared kings instead of kingship being something that passed to them. But where Renly is all flash (seriously, how many times was the word "golden" or any sort of jewel reference used this chapter?) Robb is iron and rock and cold.

I think this is also a great chapter to look at cultural differences between the Northern families and the Southron families. Everything about the south is abundance; there is food aplenty, men aplenty, laughter, follies, and merriment. Meanwhile at Riverrun, Robb's men are restless and have their harvest consider; they recognize that food might run out, whereas Renly's men give little to no thought except eating everything in sight. Renly's lords are having tourney's and I think if you proposed a tourney to the northern lords, they'd look at you like you'd lost your mind. They are a more serious bunch up north.

In this chapter we're presented with the idea that Winter is Coming and Summer must end, to which Brienne talks about how summer never ends for valiant knights and their ladies fair. There is this notion that an everlasting summer is paradise, something that I think Cat would disagree with. Summer is youth but everlasting summer means you never know hardship (are never bloodied, as Cat thinks) and struggle. What do these southron lords know of war and loss. They speak in such "fairy tale" manner--from Brienne's dreams of story knights to Renly's promises of justice for Ned, as if he was somehow personally affected by Ned's loss, but rather it's what a good knight/king in a story would say so therefore he says it.

If one of the overarching themes of ASOIAF is that "life is not a song" is it any wonder that Renly and his men are the first knights/lords/kings to fall in the Wot5K?

Cat enters the camp to find a tourney underway, and is understandably taken aback. Real enemies on every side and half the realm in flames and Renly sits here playing at war like a boy with his first wooden sword.

And this sorta goes back to what I was saying up thread about Robb and Renly being a comparison in kingship. In Cat's dream, Robb is still a boy playing with a wooden sword, but the reality is that he is a king now (Cat internally thinks about how Robb is calling them "my northmen"). However, Renly is also a king, but is acting the boy. He is like the boy out of Cat's dream, playing with a wooden sword, unbloodied by war and loss, and still thinking that this a bit of a fun fairy tale like lark.

With that said I do have to nitpick... upon discovering Brienne, the victorious blue knight, is a daughter, Cat is horrified. And what's more, Cat thinks, Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman? Woah. Pretty backwards thinking from such a strong and empowered female character, in my humble opinion

Just briefly, but I love the way GRRM set up Brienne's entrance. She is head to toe in "male knight" trope territory. In fact, I could have just written "knight" trope there and not written male since to most of us, even living in the 21st century, it's redundant. Not only is Brienne a knight with quite the prowess on the tourney field, but she is dressed in blue--a color we associate with boys (for goodness knows what reason). And, of course, the pink/blue motif of Brienne and her rather non-traditional gender depiction play out throughout ASOIAF.

I think Cat is...surprised. If we think about Renly's host as a fairy tale playing out in front of Cat's eyes--from the overly handsome, witty, clever, but non gluttonous king and his blushing shy bride, and his valiant knights--every time we take a closer look at the fairy tale, we find the truth hidden under the deception.

I am going to take these one at a time, since I think they are worth talking about.

Brienne

Fairy Tale: Valiant strong knight who would be the envy of every man around him.

Reality: a homely woman who is in love with her king and with some serious confidence issues.

Renly

Fairy Tale: the perfect king--young, handsome, faithful, honorable, a man that men swear loyalty to out of love.

Reality: sleeping with his wife's brother, the younger brother who has next to no claim to the throne in King's Landing

Margery

Fairy Tale: the perfect maiden fair, courteous. There is almost no sense of character with Margery in this chapter. She's simply "pretty loyal girl"

Reality: Oleanna Tyrell 2.0. Scheming, clever, and someone who enjoys pleasure quite a bit.

The Lords

Fairy Tale: loyal, strong, the sort of knights who would win all the battles and be sung about forevermore

Reality: Renly dies and like 95% of them go to another side! Almost without thought!

And then there is Cat--the outsider, as she has been since her first POV when she thinks about how strange northmen are, looking in at all this and realizing how foolish they all are.

Is Cat being rude in her thoughts about Brienne? Yes and no, I suppose. But it's more that the second Brienne takes of her helm that fairy tale illusion is shattered and GRRM is telling us that this whole fairy tale that is King Renly is going to be equally shattered.

Some Misc Notes

1. The face of a drowned woman. Can you down on grief?

Once again, we have Cat associated with water and the idea of it being a negative connotation. In fact, I'm trying to think has there been any positive association with water since Cat left WF, where we have the hot springs that run through the cold stone walls that Cat so greatly enjoys?

2. It is said that Renly was Robert come again, something that I think most of us might agree is not exactly a good thing.

3. It occurs to me that Brienne is a mix of Cat's two daughters that she is missing. Brienne has the "pretty stories" in her head like Sansa in AGOT (the last time Cat saw her), and she's playing with the boys instead of more traditional womanly things, like Arya who in Cat's second AGOT POV acknowledged that "gods knew Arya could use some refinement"

[LordStoneheart]

Ah Bastardly... I do enjoy the fun you bring to these chapters...

Good observations. Despite what some might think as a presumptive judgment on Catelyn's part, I think GRRM goes out of his way with his language to show us that this host really isn't taking war seriously. From the beginning where Catelyn rejects quail in favor of lighter breakfast, to the great feast that makes her queasy. There's even cotton candy here! What more could he do to tell us this is a circus than that? :D

On the subject of Brienne, taken by itself the comment does look insensitive, but it's an unfortunately true observation in her society. The comment comes directly after Catelyn sees the men harassing the champion despite the victory. And right after, a contrast is made in that Brienne "does not look unfortunate." To me this shows Catelyn's empathy more than anything shallow, as some take the comment.

[Luthien Targaryen]

Do you mind if I put in a word or two?

I'm very fond of both Catelyn and Brienne and as someone who looks more like Brienne than Catelyn, I don't find her observation about Brienne's appearance offensive. It's not as if Catelyn said this to Brienne, or even out loud. It's just an observation, she expects that pretty girls have an easier time in life than plain ones. In some ways I wonder if it's a way of Catelyn trying to hide her grief and feel better. It's like she's thinking "There's always someone worse off than you... My beloved is dead, my kids are scattered to the four winds and my father's dying, but that poor girl's had to struggle all her life." Catelyn feels sorry for Brienne, which is a testament to her capacity for empathy, even when she's in emotional turmoil herself.

[LordStoneheart]

Do you mind if I put in a word or two?

Never. It was a good comment. Feel free to stick around and comment as we go on. :cheers:

[BearQueen87]

On the subject of Brienne, taken by itself the comment does look insensitive, but it's an unfortunately true observation in her society. The comment comes directly after Catelyn sees the men harassing the champion despite the victory. And right after, a contrast is made in that Brienne "does not look unfortunate." To me this shows Catelyn's empathy more than anything shallow, as some take the comment.

I also think it's very important to note that Cat never vocalizes anything she's feeling toward Brienne's appearance, either pity or empathy or shallow. She keeps it internalized. Unlike half the men that Brienne encounters. I compared Cersei/Joff with Cat/Robb for our first ACOK chapter and ask yourself this...can you imagine Cersei's reaction to seeing Brienne take off her helm right then and there????

Do you mind if I put in a word or two?

I'm very fond of both Catelyn and Brienne and as someone who looks more like Brienne than Catelyn, I don't find her observation about Brienne's appearance offensive. It's not as if Catelyn said this to Brienne, or even out loud. It's just an observation, she expects that pretty girls have an easier time in life than plain ones. In some ways I wonder if it's a way of Catelyn trying to hide her grief and feel better. It's like she's thinking "There's always someone worse off than you... My beloved is dead, my kids are scattered to the four winds and my father's dying, but that poor girl's had to struggle all her life." Catelyn feels sorry for Brienne, which is a testament to her capacity for empathy, even when she's in emotional turmoil herself.

Right, and it's also the truth. People know when you are lying to them. Had Cat started praising Brienne as a beauty, Brienne is smart enough to know it's a lie. She's not in denial about her looks. And one of Brienne's saddest memories are when men did try to deceive her with the bet we learn about in AFFC. Cat's not going to sugar coat it, but she's not going to draw attention to it either.