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Northmen sellsword company


Luddagain

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In WOIF I noticed a very brief discussion about a sell sword company made up of Northmen who would not kneel to Aegon I. Might we find Starks, Umbers, Cerwyns in this company, and does it still exist? Did Brandon Snow who tried to kill dragons with weirwood arrows join this company?



Has anyone gathered any other information on this company or have any theories.




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The fact that this company is named the Company of the Rose could also be a hint in a certain direction. It would not surprise me if this company eventually showed, among with some of the others mentioned in TWoIaF. People were very quick to dismiss the possibility that Justin Massey could hire sellsword companies with the coin from the Iron Bank, arguing that all of them are already in Slaver's Bay (or in Westeros).



That is obviously not the case.



However, I doubt that those guys would still be 'Northmen', as they would have spent about 300 years in Essos. Yet a king fighting a war for the restoration of House Stark/the eradication of House Bolton in the North could be something to peak their interest. Possibly even the whole 'War for the Dawn' thing.


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Lord Varys



Their status as Northmen depends very much on whether they took their Northern wives and children with them, and how many of them actually left. If say 50 men and their families left, then you would expect mostly intermarriage between the families for 2/3 generations then just a gradual out breeding as others joined. The families would mix socially all the time, so you would expect mostly, intermarriages within the first fifty families. The Current Starks are half Tully, so there is no reason to believe the company of the Rose is any less Northern than the Starks. It is also probable that other Northmen would have joined over the years, and I rather suspect we will find Rodrik Stark to have joined them for a period. I am rather hoping Lyara Stark has a little brother or three. They could well be in their 20s/30s or even younger id Rodrik was a bit of a stud like Walder frey.


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BBE

I rather suspect that GRRM introduced the Company of the Rose for a reason. I doubt they will have disappeared.

The reason is "background colour" (they're a parallel to the Wild Geese). They've never been mentioned among any of the mercenary companies in the series.

Their status as Northmen depends very much on whether they took their Northern wives and children with them, and how many of them actually left. If say 50 men and their families left, then you would expect mostly intermarriage between the families for 2/3 generations then just a gradual out breeding as others joined. The families would mix socially all the time, so you would expect mostly, intermarriages within the first fifty families. The Current Starks are half Tully, so there is no reason to believe the company of the Rose is any less Northern than the Starks.

After 300 years in Essos, there would be no way the company wasn't largely assimilated into Essosi customs. Not to mention, if they were somehow active for that whole time, there'd have been enormous turnover in membership as they hired more and more locals.

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Col Green



We actually know NOTHING of the Company of the Rose, but given their name I strongly associate them with Winter and the old Gods. If they stick to worshiping the Old Gods and heart trees, then they probably will NOT have married out extensively even after 300 years. Religion tends to bind people together.


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They probably ceased to exist after a generation or two.

They were never mentioned again, and the lack of a common goal like the Golden Company has doesn't lend itself to great stability.

I actually think Massey might hire them. Remember that since GRRM scrapped the 5 year gap he had to find ways to increase the North's military might (the Mountain Clans, Skagos, Dustins keeping men back etc) - this could be another way to do just that - which is why we did not hear of them before (he had planned the gap and didnt need them)

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They probably ceased to exist after a generation or two.

They were never mentioned again, and the lack of a common goal like the Golden Company has doesn't lend itself to great stability.

I agree. As much as I like the idea of some Northern company in Essos and although there are certainly many other companies that haven't been mentioned yet, I think they ceased to exist. Why else would Rodrik Stark choose the Second Sons over the Company of the Rose?

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On a related note, does anyone have a rough idea of the size of the army of "unwanted men" that Cregan Stark brought to King's Landing at the end of the Dance? These guys also never returned to the North, and went on to fight in other wars as mercenaries, if I recall.



They were stated to be a much larger host than the Winter Wolves 2000 men. And we are told Cregans intention with them was to punish some very powerful Southron lords for supporting Aegon rather than Rhaenyra in the Dance. Specifically, to punish Storm's End, Oldtown and Casterly Rock.



So one would assume that this was a rather impressive host, to give him the belief that he could punish lords of that stature with ease, with the number of soldiers under his command.


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On a related note, does anyone have a rough idea of the size of the army of "unwanted men" that Cregan Stark brought to King's Landing at the end of the Dance? These guys also never returned to the North, and went on to fight in other wars as mercenaries, if I recall.

They were stated to be a much larger host than the Winter Wolves 2000 men. And we are told Cregans intention with them was to punish some very powerful Southron lords for supporting Aegon rather than Rhaenyra in the Dance. Specifically, to punish Storm's End, Oldtown and Casterly Rock.

So one would assume that this was a rather impressive host, to give him the belief that he could punish lords of that stature with ease, with the number of soldiers under his command.

Damn large. Probably (way) larger than Torrhen's army. 30,000? 40,000? 50,000? I don't know.

But it was large enough that he could expect to go up against an alliance of Casterly Rock, Storms End and Oldtown on his own and win.

Furthermore, he ruled KL. Not Lord Tully who actually won the last battles of the war, who had a lot of soldiers himself and the glory of being the actual victor. Not Lord Velaryon, being an old and respected guy who acted as Hand of the King before, was actually the new King's sort-of grandfather and one of the most important leaders of the Blacks.

Cregan Stark didn't do that on merit. He hadn't done anything in the war. He didn't do that on seniority, he was rather young at the time. He didn't do that based on alliances, he was a Northmen, isolationist and without many good alliances. He did it because he had an army. And therefore everybody hopped when he said "Jump" and didn't stop until Lord Stark told him to.

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BBE,



I think you are overestimating Cregan's capabilities here. He wanted to get rid off the old men in the war (just as Roddy the Ruin did with his Winter Wolves - they would also have been old done men who desired - and got - a glorious death in battle), not depopulate the North.



I'd say there is a good chance that Cregan came with 15,000-20,000 men. Rhaenyra had already called upon other Northmen - the Winter Wolves and the Manderly men who came via ship - so I guess in total the Starks would have then fielded about 25,000 men for Rhaenyra and Aegon III, which seems to be a pretty good number.



When we consider Cregan's intention to punish the Lannisters, Hightowers, and Baratheons, we have to keep in mind that all their might would have been spent by then. The Lannister army was completely destroyed at the Gods Eye, and the Westerlands were ravaged by the Ironborn, Lord Borros lost his life and possibly his completely army - possibly all his strength - on the Kingsroad, and the Hightowers would have put most/all of their strength in the huge army Lord Ormund led north which eventually disintegrated after Second Tumbleton.



Considering this, Lord Cregan would not have needed a huge army to put down those three houses - especially Oldtown would have fallen easily, I imagine.



A general note on the Dance and the size of the armies that fought therein:



We should keep in mind that this was the worst war in Westeros ever, and there is still a lot we don't yet know. The relative smallness of the armies mentioned in TPatQ may be misleading, as there are definitely still a lot of battles we don't know anything about. For instance, Ran told us that Jeyne Arryn sent 10,000 men to fight for Rhaenyra in the war, men we never even saw in TPatQ (nor have any inclination in which battles they may have fought).


We should also keep in mind that in this war neighbor fought literally against neighbor, on occasion, suggesting that the Lords Paramount could not really marshal all their strength, as some of their bannermen would have declared for/joined the other side, and had (first) to be dealt with. We see parts of that happening when major Lords of the Reach declare for Rhaenyra. Something similar could have happened in any other region.



As to the time line in KL:



I agree that Cregan's army was definitely much bigger than the Tully host. It really seems that Lord Borros was stupid and overconfident and walked into the trap 'the Lads' had set for him. If I get things right, then Elmo Tully's men already fought with Addam Velaryon in Second Tumbleton and were thus most likely not as numerous as Borros' fresh troops.


But neither Kermit Tully nor Cregan Stark took KL. Aegon's advisers (or some of them) murdered him while the Tully host was besieging the city, crowned Aegon III, and then (presumably, as this is not mentioned in the text) opened the gates to them without handing all the power over to them.



Cregan only came after Aegon III had been crowned, and Corlys Velaryon had sent envoys to Casterly Rock, Storm's End, and Oldtown to make a peace. He was also not really in control, as he apparently could not force Aegon III (or his court) to continue the war even if the Lannisters, Hightowers, and Baratheons accepted Corlys' terms. The only thing he seems to have done as Hand was to preside over the trials.



FNB,



the Northmen Cregan left in the South wed widows (especially in the Riverlands), swore their swords into service (or sold them), and few became bandits. I guess the cream of those men ended up in service of the Crown, at least during the time Torrhen Manderly served on the Regency Council.


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Lord Varys

Isn't the Gods Eye the battle where Roddy the ruin charged the Lannister spearmen 3 times? I seem to recall that total Lannister losses in that battle amounted to a mere 2000 men. Hardly the utter destruction of Casterly Rock's 45k strength.

Trying to figure out the numbers of the Dance of the Dragons is frustrating, because all the armies in the early phase of the war are super-tiny, and then at the very end you have Borros leading an army of 40,000 men and Cregan's unspecified but huge host coming down to fight.

Though the Lannisters had already been devastated by the raids on the Westerlands by the Ironborn, and were probably pretty much out of the war anyway as a consequence.

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I am curious where they went to sellsword, with the bleeding years done, and the disputed lands yet to become a shit hole, where would the action be? Qohor and Norvos? Maybe, but Qohor leaned into buying Unsullied, and Norvos has a army. Pentos and Braavos may have warred.


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We don't know how big Lord Jason's original host was when he marched west, but we do know that there were multiple battles in the Riverlands prior to the Fishfeed (the one in which the Lord Jason dies and the Westermen swarm into the Riverlands is on the list in TWoIaF).



I guess we can say that Lord Jason did not only lose his own life but quite some men despite his host apparently winning all the battles until they arrived at the Gods Eye.



The way Yandel tells the story, the West was pretty much defenseless when Dalton Greyjoy struck. Hard to tell, though, if truly most of the men were away, or whether they were overwhelmed because Dalton surprised them. On the other hand, Lady Johanna should have been able to retaliate/break Dalton's power if she still had sufficient men in the West.



I'm also not sure that we can assume that Lord Borros had 40,000 men. In fact, considering the relative closeness of the Stormlands to KL and the desire for vengeance Rhaenyra/Jace would have had after Luke's death, I'd be very surprised if there were no smaller battles in the Stormlands following Aemond's return to KL. Lord Borros may have found the idea great to not back the party of his first cousin Princess Rhaenys, but I'm not so sure that all Stormlords shared that view.



And as I've said much times before: We should not necessarily apply the present-day numbers to the numbers back then. Yeah, there was peace and plenty during the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys, but we don't know how many people lived in Westeros during the Conquest. The continuous warfare and division most likely kept the population at a lower level, and more people would have died during winter.



I still think the 55,000 men army on the Field of Fire - consisting of the combined might of Lannister and Gardener - should have been much larger if the same numbers applied (even if we keep in mind that no Hightower men fought on the Field of Fire) we use during the series. Which should be apply prove that the population increased considerably - especially in the South - throughout the Targaryen reign.


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We don't know how big Lord Jason's original host was when he marched west, but we do know that there were multiple battles in the Riverlands prior to the Fishfeed (the one in which the Lord Jason dies and the Westermen swarm into the Riverlands is on the list in TWoIaF).

I guess we can say that Lord Jason did not only lose his own life but quite some men despite his host apparently winning all the battles until they arrived at the Gods Eye.

The way Yandel tells the story, the West was pretty much defenseless when Dalton Greyjoy struck. Hard to tell, though, if truly most of the men were away, or whether they were overwhelmed because Dalton surprised them. On the other hand, Lady Johanna should have been able to retaliate/break Dalton's power if she still had sufficient men in the West.

I'm also not sure that we can assume that Lord Borros had 40,000 men. In fact, considering the relative closeness of the Stormlands to KL and the desire for vengeance Rhaenyra/Jace would have had after Luke's death, I'd be very surprised if there were no smaller battles in the Stormlands following Aemond's return to KL. Lord Borros may have found the idea great to not back the party of his first cousin Princess Rhaenys, but I'm not so sure that all Stormlords shared that view.

And as I've said much times before: We should not necessarily apply the present-day numbers to the numbers back then. Yeah, there was peace and plenty during the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys, but we don't know how many people lived in Westeros during the Conquest. The continuous warfare and division most likely kept the population at a lower level, and more people would have died during winter.

I still think the 55,000 men army on the Field of Fire - consisting of the combined might of Lannister and Gardener - should have been much larger if the same numbers applied (even if we keep in mind that no Hightower men fought on the Field of Fire) we use during the series. Which should be apply prove that the population increased considerably - especially in the South - throughout the Targaryen reign.

Aha!

That exclamation is regarding your last point. One which I have made numerous times before. And one which I would be most pleased if you could convince Ran of as well. He has always been intent on seeing the 55k men on the Field of Fire as only a part of the combined Westerland-Reach strength, while finding reasons - which do not appear in the text, I would note - why the same should not apply to the North.

I think it is quite obvious, from the way in which the 55k is so unequivocally and with casual certainty stated to have dwarfed any host raised in Westeros before, that it constituted a very significant part of the strengths of the Reach and the West. And that in fact, these regions would arguably have been able to march a larger portion of their total strength the relatively short distance to the Field of Fire, than Torhenn Stark could march more than 1000 miles to the Trident. Meaning that Torhenn Stark's 30k men was indeed a vast host for any single kingdom to raise and march over such a distance. A feat that could possibly only be surpassed by the Reach, at the time.

In any case, coming back to the Gods Eye battle. It is said this was the bloodiest battle of the Dance, with "hundreds dying on that day". To me, this does not suggest that the Dance was the "worst war in the history of Westeros." In fact, it makes it sound like the Dance involved a large number of rather tiny battles, but nothing remotely approaching some of the other Wars we have read about. Certainly nothing like Robert's Rebellion, or the War of the Five Kings, in terms of the size of battles, or deaths per battle.

So, if the Gods Eye was the bloodiest battle of the War, with maybe 2000 dead Lannisters at most, well, that means there could not have been any more devastating battles before or after that point during the Dance.

In any case, it certainly seems to suggest that the population was somewhat lower in earlier times.

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I still think the 55,000 men army on the Field of Fire - consisting of the combined might of Lannister and Gardener - should have been much larger if the same numbers applied (even if we keep in mind that no Hightower men fought on the Field of Fire) we use during the series. Which should be apply prove that the population increased considerably - especially in the South - throughout the Targaryen reign.

Why would the population increase? Two regions fielded 55,000 men at the Field of Fire. Four (well, three) regions fielded 35,000 at the Trident.

It's not the number of available swords which is the bottleneck, but the number of mouths you can feed in a single location.

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