sj4iy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 But when you fall from a horse, is it even possible to fall down onto your knees? I mean, your feet will be in the stirrups, won't they? Rhaegar would have most likely been hit from the front, meaning he fell towards the back... can you land on your knees then? No, you couldn't fall on your knees without having both legs swung over the saddle- and there's no reason that a warrior would do that without attempting to dismount. If he had been hit from the front while on his horse, he would have most likely fallen over the opposite side. I don't see Robert having the ability to knock him backwards off of his horse, unless the horse was rearing up- and even then, Rhaegar would have fallen on his back, not on his knees. Basically, the only way for Rhaegar to realistically have fallen on his knees would be for him to have been dismounted already. Of course, this isn't reality, so I can understand the discrepancy. /grew up riding horses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 can you land on your knees then? Hardly. Though, one has to take into account that GRRM is not an expert on weaponry, he may have not taken that into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 No, you couldn't fall on your knees without having both legs swung over the saddle- and there's no reason that a warrior would do that without attempting to dismount.If he had been hit from the front while on his horse, he would have most likely fallen over the opposite side. I don't see Robert having the ability to knock him backwards off of his horse, unless the horse was rearing up- and even then, Rhaegar would have fallen on his back, not on his knees.Basically, the only way for Rhaegar to have fallen on his knees would be for him to have been dismounted already./grew up riding horsesMe as well. Agreed it would be impossible. Hardly.Though, one has to take into account that GRRM is not an expert on weaponry, he may have not taken that into account.True, but this is a huge moment in all of Westeros history. I think GRRM knows where Robert dealt the killing blow from, on horseback or on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Phrasing.See that's why I like your spunk sj4iy. Let it sink in slowly. Yeaaaah, I speak Archer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozemarijn Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 But when you fall from a horse, is it even possible to fall down onto your knees? I mean, your feet will be in the stirrups, won't they? Rhaegar would have most likely been hit from the front, meaning he fell towards the back... can you land on your knees then?I suggest someone organizes a forum meeting, two persons bring a horse and we try it out. I have a huge hammer which I can bring so we can check if you can work with it from a horse as well. It will be fun.I read everything, but I seem to have missed the point of the whole horse/knees discussion? It suggests Dany's visions in the house of the undying are not correct? And what does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Ah. I see what you mean now. Like Rhaegar must have done something honorable/kind of stupid to get himself killed........Ill have to think about that. You could be right about dismounting....or it could be something else? The way he lead his army into battle or something...Wasn't Aerys fucking with some of this bannermen right as the battle began from WOIAF? Maybe Jorah meant that he should have pulled back due to problems in his ranks, but lead the charge honourably anyway? If you believe Edmure, Rhaegar tried to cross the ford as his army was breaking. “Yes, but once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he’ll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he’ll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.” Lewyn dying/the Dornish breaking, and Barristan and Darry being cut down, must all occur before Robert and Rhaegar fight seeing as the battle ended when Rhaegar died. Robert and Rhaegar fought in the ford, which is where Rhaegar would have tried to make his crossing. So if Edmure's tale is true, then Rhaegar tried to cross the ford after his right flank (the Dornish) had been broken, and his left flank were left commanderless (Barristan and Darry seem to have been the commanders). So it could be, that the "fought valiantly, fought honourably", etc references this. Rhaegar's ranks were breaking and he attempted to make one last charge and kill Robert which is what he'd been ordered to do (hence them managing to meet). Personally I just always took Jorah's comment to reference the fact that you can do everything that you're supposed to do, and still not be good enough. But when you fall from a horse, is it even possible to fall down onto your knees? I mean, your feet will be in the stirrups, won't they? Rhaegar would have most likely been hit from the front, meaning he fell towards the back... can you land on your knees then? From everything we've heard, Robert hit Rhaegar with a monstrous blow. And Rhaegar was definitely hit from the front, as his breastplate is noted to have been caved in from the blow. So if he was on horseback, he'd have been knocked out of his stirrups and put on his ass. Then there's also the problem that Robert says he punched the spike of his warhammer through Rhaegar's armour when he hit him. So I'd imagine if he didn't knock Rhaegar clean out of the saddle then it was because Rhaegar was impaled on the spike. So Robert would have had to shake him off or throw him into the river for Rhaegar to end up there. But my main point was that the vision shows Rhaegar as he gets hit and he falls to his knees. This doesn't make sense as it implies that he was standing, not on horseback when he got hit. Which doesn't fit with what we're told from either the fact that he was supposed to be on horseback, nor that he apparently was still standing from a blow that was powerful enough to cave in his breastplate, his chest, and drive a spike through his heart. The vision also doesn't have Robert's spike going into Rhaegar's heart. It just seems to depict him getting hit and Robert's blow off out of the vision. But Robert says he impaled him, which means his blow couldn't have been of the glancing kind that would have just hit Rhaegar and continued on its arc. It had to have stuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Me as well. Agreed it would be impossible. True, but this is a huge moment in all of Westeros history. I think GRRM knows where Robert dealt the killing blow from, on horseback or on the ground. I do not doubt that GRRM knows how the duel went, I am just not sure whether he took into account the effect of the blow and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I do not doubt that GRRM knows how the duel went, I am just not sure whether he took into account the effect of the blow and the like. I just had a vision of GRRM, horseback, in ill-fitting armor, trying to swing a sledge hammer at a gunny sack full of sand hanging from a tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 See that's why I like your spunk sj4iy. Let it sink in slowly. Yeaaaah, I speak Archer. But you're not drunk enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I swear to god I had something for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I swear to god I had something for this. Lyanna...Lyannaaaaa.....LYAAAAAAAANAAAAA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Lyanna...Lyannaaaaa.....LYAAAAAAAANAAAAA! Boop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I stand by the original point: it doesn't matter if the vision is historically accurate or not. The message it is trying to convey is what is important. And the pictures in the world book out of universe, yes? The text is canon (insofar as Maester Yandel is trying to tell it) but the drawings are considered out of world. And just because there is a picture of them rushing together on horse doesn't mean the fight stayed on horseback any more than a picture of Rhaegar lying in the stream with Robert over him on foot means anything Not that any of this matters because it in no way, shape or form disproves RLJ--the very basic theory that Jon's biological parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. It does not take love to make a baby. The vision is conveying that but how Rhaegar died--horsed or on foot--does not change Jon's DNA. *I need to drink* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I stand by the original point: it doesn't matter if the vision is historically accurate or not. The message it is trying to convey is what is important. And the pictures in the world book out of universe, yes? The text is canon but the drawings are considered out of world. And just because there is a picture of them rushing together on horse doesn't mean the fight stayed on horseback any more than a picture of Rhaegar lying in the stream with Robert over him on foot means anything Not that any of this matters because it in no way, shape or form disproves RLJ--the very basic theory that Jon's biological parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. It does not take love to make a baby. The vision is conveying that but how Rhaegar died--horsed or on foot--does not change Jon's DNA. *I need to drink* So you're saying my Miniature Horse theory isn't relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 So you're saying my Miniature Horse theory isn't relevant? Your Miniature Horse theory is absolutely relevant and will change the course of Westeros.org history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Rhaegar fought honorably, causing him in the end to fall off his horse, after which Robert killed him? He then sank on his knees into the water... Is that possible? Well right. And, Rhaegar had also wounded Robert pretty badly as well. So Robert is bringing this hammer. I'm assuming Rhaegar had a shield, because I don't see, unless he lands a precision-like, targeted blow with his sword, that a sword alone is going to stop an enraged, muscle-bound arm-swinging hammer. Either Rhaegar was knocked from his horse and Robert struck him with the hammer then. Or, Robert was knocked from his horse because he was already wounded, Rhaegar dismounted, walked up, and then Robert struck? :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I stand by the original point: it doesn't matter if the vision is historically accurate or not. The message it is trying to convey is what is important. Indeed. I was merely wondering whether it might serve a double purpose and together with "died fought honorably" indicate that Rhaegar did something stupid chivalrous that cost him his life and kingdom. Chivalry is what killed Daemon Blackfyre, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 It's fiction. It's a book where there are ice zombies, shadow demon babies, magical leeches with king's blood in them, etc. It can withstand a few factual errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 So you're saying my Miniature Horse theory isn't relevant? He's cute. Gotta go break, Tom Brady is speaking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Indeed. I was merely wondering whether it might serve a double purpose and together with "died fought honorably" indicate that Rhaegar did something stupid chivalrous that cost him his life and kingdom. Chivalry is what killed Daemon Blackfyre, after all. Oh I totally believe the vision at the HotU is showing something that is historically accurate and that Rhaegar got off his horse and the fought on foot for a bit. It's also a nice circular (but twisted) history back to HH where all this began. Rhaegar won a jousting tourney to crown Lyanna. Rhaegar knocks Robert off (similar to winning a jousting tourney) but then dismounts and for a brief second, he's about to win "HH 2.0" and publicly crown Lyanna once more, but then...fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it...steps in. This time Robert "won" the tourney...only for Old! Robert to realize that Rhaegar had won all along. Circles within circles, GRRM eats this stuff for breakfast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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