Sympathy for the Citadel Conspiracy

[Mithras]

Magic is effectively a craft or technique despite the fact that George does not want to portray it as such. The Valyrians really knew what they were doing when practiced their magics (creating Valyrian steel again and again and again), and you can also learn all the tricks a skinchanger and greenseer can do.

If the Valyrians were not wiped out by the Doom in the blink of an eye, I could have agreed with this :)

I am not ruling out that there might be relatively harmless magic forms as long as the people who practice it can keep self-control and obey certain codes. In skinchanging, these codes are settled but a power hungry fool like Varamyr could easily turn into an abomination. Bran slipped into Hodor few times out of desperation but inside the cave, same cannot be said. In addition, in all forms of skinchanging, it is essential to remember that this is a two way lane. The skinchanger loses some part of his/her soul to the beast and imports some part of the beast.

In case of Valyria, under that vainglorious civilization of theirs, it was the blood of the slaves from all over the world which drived the gears of this giant machine.

More importantly, nothing suggests that the Others have anything to do with the Valyrians and their dragons. It is much more likely, in my opinion, that the Others are the result of a very different branch of magic - ice magic - that was either practiced by some men or other creatures (Children of the Forest) back before the Long Night.

One thing we know for sure that the sun was blocked during the Long Night. Of all the places, Asshai is the most messed up city where it seems dimmer and colder than it should and those oily black stones seem to drink the sunlight. A similar comment was made about the House of the Undying, creatures of necromancy, cold and death. Mel claimed that shadows are creatures of fire and light. Renly felt the cold before his throat was opened by the shadow assassin.

In short, I do not agree with this ice magic theory. The LN is clearly related to something done in Asshai. The Others might not owe their existence to it but it is clear that they benefited from it greatly.

[shadow282]

There is no conspiracy. All "evidence" of it comes from one single person. What's more likely, that there's a Westeros spanning conspiracy or that a single guy went crazy and is inventing it all?

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

well, I go with the theory that the Faceless Men caused the Doom - either by assassinating all the sorcerers who upheld the Valyrian spells controlling the Fourteen Flames or by impersonating one or two of them and actually breaking those spells. I think the latter is more likely, as I imagine the spells would not have broken all at once causing the Doom if the sorcerers maintaining them would have been killed one by one, especially since the Valyrians would then have realized that they had to do something about it - and would probably come up with a solution. The idea that only a few were privy to the the spells controlling the volcanoes is not all that realistic. It could be that this was a rather tedious duty, but surely the Valyrians archives and libraries would have included scrolls and books containing those spells, enabling the Valyrians to do something about the impending Doom (either renewing the spells or leaving the Freehold - in such a scenario most/all of the dragonlords would have survived, I think).

But even if we go with the former theory, it is clear that Valyrians knew what they were doing and would not have fallen if the Faceless Men had not taken them down. Their magic in itself was not wrong or out of control.

As to Asshai:

Nothing suggests that whatever led to the weird light-sucking climate/stone of Asshai is connected to the Long Night. Those places are thousands of leagues apart, and nothing suggests that the disappearance of the sun during the Long Night and the weakness of the light in Asshai have any inherent similarities.

I, personally, expect that the Long Night was caused by a single event in Westeros, rather than by something at other places on the world. Whatever the Others then did - after they came into existence, since I don't think we should (or have to) assume that the Others did always exists - caused the Long Night. They controlled (and still control) magics strong enough to shroud the entire world in darkness and cold. The idea that the cold allows the Others to come opposed to the idea that the idea that the Others cause/bring the cold (and winter) makes little sense, as this would strongly suggests that the Others' actions were governed by 'natural seasons' - but nothing we know suggests that the seasons as they are today are natural seasons. The season mess was caused magically, and I'm pretty sure that the Others must have been the ones who did this, as any fire-magic using human empires - like the early Valyrians - would not have had any reason whatsoever to mess with the climate of the whole world. Whereas all we know about the Others clearly makes it very likely that they may be forced to change the climate of the whole world if they want to populate/conquer it all, as it seems that they simply cannot exist in a warm climate and under the light of the sun.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Marwyn was wrong about Aemon, the Archmaesters weren't exiling him, he went to the wall to escape the politics of the south, he was serving at Summerhall and refused the chance to be on the Small Council, so no evidence he ever wanted high status within the Citadel hierarchy, there is no good reason to believe the Archmaesters were in any way opposed to Aemon achieving status or wanted him gone to the wall.

There is also no reason to believe he knows the truth regarding the death of the dragons, unless he saw it in a glass candle then his knowledge must have come from someone else, since he is clearly a bit of a rouge and likes magic (valyrian steel link), he seems like exactly the kind of man who no top archmaester would tell about the anti magic conspiracy, if someone did tell him then I am confused as to how it has been kept a secret for 150 years.

90% of the dragons were killed during the Dance, what happened to the remaining dragons is certainly an interesting question, but there is no proposed method through which the maesters achieved this, Marwyn just tells us the citadel did it and we are supposed to believe him. There is nothing linking the Citadel and the Dance unless you believe the notions put forth in David Icke's ridiculous video. Oops, did I say David Icke? I meant Preston Jacobs.

As for maester Walys, how the hell would Barbrey even know? She has seemingly never been to Wintefell before, the only things she would know about Walys is what she got from her source in Oldtown and what Brandon told her, and Brandon wouldn't have known that Walys suggested his betrothal even if he did.

To be clear I am not saying that there is definitely no maester conspiracy, there is still plenty of unpublished material that might prove me wrong. But for now the belief that there is is based entirely on the ravings of a bitter paranoid woman and a paranoid malcontent man about things that they have no way of knowing.

[Lord Varys]

Aemon could have become an archmaester prior to the Great Council in 233 AC. And there is a good chance that there is more to the Storming of the Dragonpit than we know. We don't know who the Shepherd was, nor do we know how he motivated his followers into storming it, or if it makes sense to assume that the people doing that were mostly commons. The ones killing the dragons seem to have been well-armored and armed...

I'd not be surprised if the Storming was a thing arranged by Green agents with the help of certain maesters living in the city at that time. Everything smells fishy about those riots. The speed in which the people learned that Helaena had been 'murdered', the fact that the people went mad and turned against the dragons rather than leaving the city - which at that time was both undefended and open, as Ser Perkin's followers had overwhelmed the garrisons of various city gates during the day before the Storming of the Dragonpit.

I'm inclined to believe that the Storming was an dragon-eradication operation disguised as the uprising of a mob. Many people were going there, but the people killing the dragons were professionals. And we know that there are drugs and poisons in Martinworld which essentially drive people (and animals) in mad rages (the poison Jaqen used to turn Weese's dog against him). My guess is that some Citadel agents - pretending/being on the Green side - used such a poison in the pot shops and stews to incite the mad and irrational rage necessary to convince people to face four dragons in battle.

[Mithras]

I can't say that I felt sorry about the Storming of the Dragonpit because Rhaenyra was completely off the balance and she needed to go.

[Lord Varys]

Well, the Storming of the Dragonpit did nothing to depose Rhaenyra. If she had not returned to Dragonstone, Lord Cregan and the Manderlys would have restored her to the Iron Throne soon enough.

And in my opinion, she mostly hit on/executed the right people.

[The silver dragon]

Marwyn was wrong about Aemon, the Archmaesters weren't exiling him, he went to the wall to escape the politics of the south, he was serving at Summerhall and refused the chance to be on the Small Council, so no evidence he ever wanted high status within the Citadel hierarchy, there is no good reason to believe the Archmaesters were in any way opposed to Aemon achieving status or wanted him gone to the wall.

There is also no reason to believe he knows the truth regarding the death of the dragons, unless he saw it in a glass candle then his knowledge must have come from someone else, since he is clearly a bit of a rouge and likes magic (valyrian steel link), he seems like exactly the kind of man who no top archmaester would tell about the anti magic conspiracy, if someone did tell him then I am confused as to how it has been kept a secret for 150 years.

90% of the dragons were killed during the Dance, what happened to the remaining dragons is certainly an interesting question, but there is no proposed method through which the maesters achieved this, Marwyn just tells us the citadel did it and we are supposed to believe him. There is nothing linking the Citadel and the Dance unless you believe the notions put forth in David Icke's ridiculous video. Oops, did I say David Icke? I meant Preston Jacobs.

As for maester Walys, how the hell would Barbrey even know? She has seemingly never been to Wintefell before, the only things she would know about Walys is what she got from her source in Oldtown and what Brandon told her, and Brandon wouldn't have known that Walys suggested his betrothal even if he did.

To be clear I am not saying that there is definitely no maester conspiracy, there is still plenty of unpublished material that might prove me wrong. But for now the belief that there is is based entirely on the ravings of a bitter paranoid woman and a paranoid malcontent man about things that they have no way of knowing.

1.) maester know how to use poison. considering how much dragon's eat. it would not be that hard to covertly poison there food.

[Mithras]

Bloodmagic doesn't require the blood of the innocent, the blood of the guilty works just as well. Magic doesn't push people into corruption as there is the will to power without magic as the Lannisters and countless others have demonstrated. There are examples of magic without blood sacrifice such as the cranngomen, the Rhoynar water wizards and some of the warlocks' magic.

Of course magic is not the cause of all the suffering in the world. But it is completely different than other kinds of corruption. There is nothing mysterious about bribery, backstabbing, blackmailing etc. As I explained in my previous post above, the practice of magic might be empowering some evil entities off the screen where people have no idea about. In that case, even using the guilty people as blood sacrifices might have serious outcomes unforeseen.

We know how Valyrians built their empire and how it ended. We do not know who built the Asshai Empire but it seems that it was much more bigger than anything we can think of. Asshai is the greatest city in existence and that is without the shadowlands. There are remains of oily black stones all over the world. Yandel says that the Asshai dragonriders did not set out to build a world empire like the Valyrians but those remains say that they sure did. And from the looks of Asshai today, the Doom of Valyria was nothing compared to the cataclysm which ended that vast empire.

About the magic schools you mentioned:

Crannogmen can work deadly poisons. The Neck is home to many strange kinds of substances and poisons which the maesters pay great money to buy and study. I think the poison they used to wipe out the dragons come from the Neck. From Oberyn and Qyburn, we know that magic is an important part of poison craft.

I also do not think that the Rhoynish water magic was completely harmless. It seems that the Curse of Garin is actually biological warfare fueled by water magic and the deaths of the Rhoynar in great numbers. They created the greyscale and even today it is taking lives and threatening populations.

The warlocks in Qarth seemed like the thralls of the Undying who were creatures of necromancy. They feed on the life fire of the fools who enter the House of the Undying.

We have no evidence that sorcerers caused the LN. Dragons didn't cause the LN, as the Others came before Dany's dragons were even born. Also, if they are the source of the imbalance then why didn't the imbalance end when the last dragon died out in Aegon III's reign?

I think we do have some evidence that the seasons were regular once and it changed with the LN. The Yi Ti history suggests that the cause of the LN was the corruption of men who worshipped an oily black stone which fell from the sky and practiced darkest kinds of sorceries.

About why the imbalance didnot end when the dragons died last time: My guess is that something must be done in the Lands of Always Winter. We need to understand what is going on at the Heart of Winter. Someone has to fix something there. Only then the seasons should return to normal again.

I find the idea of exterminating dragons to be specism. Who are we to decide what species should live or die? Dragons aren't the problem, people are.

I agree that someone (Jon) will use the dragon(s) for the greater good (instead of spending them in the civil wars) but after the LN, the humanity should not need them anymore. That is if the balance will be restored completely instead of postponing the Armageddon to a future time, which seems to be the case in the first LN.

Also as has been pointed out, the maesters caused the most horrible war in Westeros's history to exterminate the dragons. Was it worth all the suffering and destruction?

Imagine the suffering and destruction if Aegon IV had dragons and restarted the Dornish Wars or gave Daemon a dragon. Or think what would happen if Aerys II had dragons.

Quenton Hightower’s mindset in quarantining Oldtown during the grey plague was the official policy of the Citadel. These people are “all for the greater good” types. I might not agree with this approach every time but I cannot deny that it makes sense in some cases.

And to be fair, science gave us industrial and nuclear warfare, with a scale of mass slaughter previously unseen on the battlefield in world history. It gave us more means for the economic exploitation of the poor and surveillance for a security state. Michael Crichton even goes so far as to say that scientific discovery is a violent, penetrative act that harms the natural world. I don't mean to decry science altogether as it also gave us medicine, greater means of communication and transportation, sanitation, and better food storage.

George said that his magic is not a science. Scientific predictions do not change from time to time. They are universal. But the magical activity in Planetos is ever changing as Quaithe and Halyne pointed. After the birth of the dragons, wildfire production rate was multiplied and all the magicians are able do things they could not do before.

[Fire Eater]

Of course magic is not the cause of all the suffering in the world. But it is completely different than other kinds of corruption. There is nothing mysterious about bribery, backstabbing, blackmailing etc. As I explained in my previous post above, the practice of magic might be empowering some evil entities off the screen where people have no idea about. In that case, even using the guilty people as blood sacrifices might have serious outcomes unforeseen.

We know how Valyrians built their empire and how it ended. We do not know who built the Asshai Empire but it seems that it was much more bigger than anything we can think of. Asshai is the greatest city in existence and that is without the shadowlands. There are remains of oily black stones all over the world. Yandel says that the Asshai dragonriders did not set out to build a world empire like the Valyrians but those remains say that they sure did. And from the looks of Asshai today, the Doom of Valyria was nothing compared to the cataclysm which ended that vast empire.

About the magic schools you mentioned:

Crannogmen can work deadly poisons. The Neck is home to many strange kinds of substances and poisons which the maesters pay great money to buy and study. I think the poison they used to wipe out the dragons come from the Neck. From Oberyn and Qyburn, we know that magic is an important part of poison craft.

I also do not think that the Rhoynish water magic was completely harmless. It seems that the Curse of Garin is actually biological warfare fueled by water magic and the deaths of the Rhoynar in great numbers. They created the greyscale and even today it is taking lives and threatening populations.

The warlocks in Qarth seemed like the thralls of the Undying who were creatures of necromancy. They feed on the life fire of the fools who enter the House of the Undying.

There is a difference between poison and magic.

Greyscale likely existed before Garin given the different strains of the disease like the grey plague.

What about the phantom tortoises, do they require sacrifice?

I think we do have some evidence that the seasons were regular once and it changed with the LN. The Yi Ti history suggests that the cause of the LN was the corruption of men who worshipped an oily black stone which fell from the sky and practiced darkest kinds of sorceries.

About why the imbalance didnot end when the dragons died last time: My guess is that something must be done in the Lands of Always Winter. We need to understand what is going on at the Heart of Winter. Someone has to fix something there. Only then the seasons should return to normal again.

I have pondered that the Long Night actually may have been when seasons changed to their current pattern. However, I don't think it is entirely man-made.

If it is something to be done in the Land of Always Winter, I agree. Bran does give off a Frodo vibe: goes with three humanoid companions from his home to be aided by a ranger of the NW (like Aragorn, a Ranger of the North), and go beyond the Black Gate into hostile enemy territory to a mystical figure with one all-seeing eye shrouded in darkness, BR. I think like Aragorn was leading the fight against the forces of Mordor at the Black Gate while Frodo trying to cast the ring into the fires of Mt Doom ensuring a permanent end to the conflict, Jon could be leading the forces against the Others while Bran does something in the Heart of Winter, ending the LN.

I agree that someone (Jon) will use the dragon(s) for the greater good (instead of spending them in the civil wars) but after the LN, the humanity should not need them anymore. That is if the balance will be restored completely instead of postponing the Armageddon to a future time, which seems to be the case in the first LN.

Imagine the suffering and destruction if Aegon IV had dragons and restarted the Dornish Wars or gave Daemon a dragon. Or think what would happen if Aerys II had dragons.

Quenton Hightower’s mindset in quarantining Oldtown during the grey plague was the official policy of the Citadel. These people are “all for the greater good” types. I might not agree with this approach every time but I cannot deny that it makes sense in some cases.

Who is to say who shouldn't need them? Everything is cyclical, and the Targaryens monopoly on dragonpower managed to help keep some form of stability.

Imagine if Baelor Breakspear, Daeron II or Aegon V had dragons. Aegon V would have been able to pass his progressive reforms. It all depends on who is the rider much as who sits the IT. Aegon IV restarted the Dornish wars anyway without actual dragons. Aerys burned people without dragons as well. Daemon started his rebellion without them as well. People do things out of motivations besides dragons. Dragons like any other form of power are destructive when put into the wrong hands.

Could you say that the Citadel's plan makes sense with a straight face to the people who lost everything, homes and loved ones, in the Dance of Dragons the Citadel caused?

George said that his magic is not a science. Scientific predictions do not change from time to time. They are universal. But the magical activity in Planetos is ever changing as Quaithe and Halyne pointed. After the birth of the dragons, wildfire production rate was multiplied and all the magicians are able do things they could not do before.

It is not about making a connection between magic and science, but to press the point that both can have consequences both good and bad.

[Ratmancampidori]

Imagine if Baelor Breakspear, Daeron II or Aegon V had dragons. Aegon V would have been able to pass his progressive reforms. It all depends on who is the rider much as who sits the IT. Aegon IV restarted the Dornish wars anyway without actual dragons. Aerys burned people without dragons as well. Daemon started his rebellion without them as well. People do things out of motivations besides dragons. Dragons like any other form of power are destructive when put into the wrong hands.

okay those are good points on what would have happened if all those people had dragons but what would have happened if Aerys II, Daeron I and Aegon IV had had dragons. What would have happened if Aerion the Monstrous had dragons?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I kinda agree with the OP. I didn't realize until TWOIAF that almost all magic in asoiaf is Lovecraftian. It really is. It's horrible. Darkness gives or reveals magic. The night is truly dark and full of terrors because I'm starting to believe that some kind of Lovecraftian "gods" are responsible for magic.

Anyways. Yes blood magic sucks. It's terrible. Think all that slave women at Gogossos who were mated with beasts to birth half-human half-beast monsters!

Now I can understand why doesn't people trust sorcerers.

{Necromany is what Qyburn does. It Frankenstein-ish. Requires time.

The Undying/warlock's magic is hard to describe, really.

Alchemy is magic chemistry. Poisons and powders and wildfire and stuff.}

Destroy All The Magic

Blood is key for the magic, but its not always blood = death. Blood is also life. That's why women are magical. They can create life.

[Fire Eater]

okay those are good points on what would have happened if all those people had dragons but what would have happened if Aerys II, Daeron I and Aegon IV had had dragons. What would have happened if Aerion the Monstrous had dragons?

The rest of Aerion's family would have had dragons to restrain him and his dragon in that scenario. Daeron I wasn't described as cruel or mad. If any of the three mentioned monarchs had dragons, it would have not been a nice picture for the Dornish for the first two, but for the last one, it would have been bad for the entire realm.

[Ratmancampidori]

The rest of Aerion's family would have had dragons to restrain him and his dragon in that scenario. Daeron I wasn't described as cruel or mad. If any of the three mentioned monarchs had dragons, it would have not been a nice picture for the Dornish for the first two, but for the last one, it would have been bad for the entire realm.

Exactly, dragons are just too dangerous to exist. The dangers they pose far out way any good they can possibly pose and from Valyria and Asshai we clearly see what abusing magic can end with.

[OldGimletEye]

and allowed for all further conflict's to happen. (i doubt daeron would have failed to conquer dorne if he had a dragon on his side.)

We're supposed to feel bad for Daeron and the Targs? Daeron and the Targs getting their asses kicked in Dorne was one best things that ever happened. The Targs were the aggressors. They went lookin for fights and found them. I am glad they got their asses kicked.

Dorne dealt with bullies the way you are supposed to - by punching them in the nose.

[The silver dragon]

We're supposed to feel bad for Daeron and the Targs? Daeron and the Targs getting their asses kicked in Dorne was one best things that ever happened. The Targs were the aggressors. They went lookin for fights and found them. I am glad they got their asses kicked.

Dorne dealt with bullies the way you are supposed to - by punching them in the nose.

1.) tell that to the the Weeping Town.

daeron was a much loved and respected ruler (the high-tower's built a statue for him) and the martell's assassinated him with about as much honer as a Frey. and his death would allow for aegon the unworthy to rule and the blackfyre rebellion. far from a good thing.

2.) dorne was actually the ones who continued aggression. if they had kept to themselves and not bothered anyone then yeah i would root for them, but they didn't

Princes Aliandra Martell encouraged her lords and knights to prove themselves to her, by raiding in the marches.^[1].

the ruler of dorne told her lord's to attack, sack and hinder the marches (which are a part of targaryen domain) for no reason at all.

3.) daeron declared war partly because of ambition, and partly because the dornish had been a pain up the seven kingdom's ass for generation's. killing his villager's and raiding his town's.

If you were a king with the duty to defend your people land's (protector of the realm) are you telling me you would not try and put an end to the independent dorne which will proceed to raid your lands unless stopped?

[khal drogon]

I think the maesters are trying to destroy something they do not understand fully..Considering ice and fire forces should be balanced,wiping out dragons is a bad idea.

[Mithras]

There is a difference between poison and magic.

Greyscale likely existed before Garin given the different strains of the disease like the grey plague.

After a certain point, the distinction between poison and magic vanishes.

I think the mortal grey plague was created by Garin’s Curse. Mild greyscale might have existed before. Sothoryos and the Basilisk Isles were the laboratories of the Valyrians and probably the Asshai'i before them. Their disgusting experiments might be the reasons of those deadly plagues lurking there. More than 5000 years ago, a plague destroyed the Valyrian colony at Gogossos. 77 years after the Doom, another plague called the Red Death emerged from the slave pens and 9 men out of 10 died screaming in Gogossos.

I have pondered that the Long Night actually may have been when seasons changed to their current pattern. However, I don't think it is entirely man-made.

Do you think of some natural causes of the LN or the intervention of nonhuman races? I don’t think the nature favors a LN. The reasons of the LN should not be natural. But if the natural balance was broken by the dragonlords of Asshai in favor of Fire, then we can think of a natural reaction in favor of Ice towards restoring the balance.

We now know that the Valyrian sorcerers were suppressing the lava flow out of the Fourteen Flames. When the mages were killed, years of pressure building up led to the Doom. There is an island called Marahai very close to Asshai. There are two volcanoes there belching lava day and night. I think it is not a big stretch that the Asshai’I dragonlords used similar techniques to meddle with volcanoes. After all, it seems that the Valyrians learned everything from the Asshai’i who survived the LN.

Therefore, I am quite confident that the causes of the LN were all man made. Perhaps the thriving of the Others was the natural reaction considering that they nearly wiped out the dragons of the Asshai’i. tze made a very good observation that Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, who was a famous dragonslayer might actually be an Other.

Who is to say who shouldn't need them? Everything is cyclical, and the Targaryens monopoly on dragonpower managed to help keep some form of stability.

Imagine if Baelor Breakspear, Daeron II or Aegon V had dragons. Aegon V would have been able to pass his progressive reforms. It all depends on who is the rider much as who sits the IT. Aegon IV restarted the Dornish wars anyway without actual dragons. Aerys burned people without dragons as well. Daemon started his rebellion without them as well. People do things out of motivations besides dragons. Dragons like any other form of power are destructive when put into the wrong hands.

Could you say that the Citadel's plan makes sense with a straight face to the people who lost everything, homes and loved ones, in the Dance of Dragons the Citadel caused?

The quick deterioration of the NW took place during the reign of the Targaryens. On average, the Targaryen reign is not more stable than the Pre-Conquest era. With or without the dragons, we have seen Targaryen civil wars that ravaged the Realm.

I am not sure that Baelor Breakspear would be the Baelor Breakspear we know if he had a dragon. Even in skinchanging, Haggon said that both the animal and the skinchanger will change due to the bond. In case of the dragons, the danger is more serious. Instead of a pet companion, the dragonriders have fearsome beasts which might swell their egos and corrupt them. Dragons are absolute power. I think it will be interesting to see the effects of dragonbond on Dany and the other dragonriders.

In case of Egg, his desperation to bring the dragons back for good reasons nearly destroyed House Targaryen.

If Aerys had a dragon, then another Dance would take place between Rhaegar and him.

Well, I can’t put the blame of the Dance to the Citadel only. I think Viserys I was much guiltier than the Citadel. No maester caused the divide between the blacks and the greens. Especially after the Two Betrayers, it became clear that no person should be allowed to obtain such power. Perhaps that is the reason why the Citadel wants to keep the urban legend that only Targaryens can ride dragons.

It is not about making a connection between magic and science, but to press the point that both can have consequences both good and bad.

One can objectively analyze the bad consequences of science and try to avoid them the next time. With magic, everything is a gamble. The Citadel expelled Qyburn for studying the bodies of live people and for good reason because he later became a person capable of creating abominations like UnGregor.

[Mithras]

2.) dorne was actually the ones who continued aggression. if they had kept to themselves and not bothered anyone then yeah i would root for them, but they didn't

Princes Aliandra Martell encouraged her lords and knights to prove themselves to her, by raiding in the marches.^[1].

the ruler of dorne told her lord's to attack, sack and hinder the marches (which are a part of targaryen domain) for no reason at all.

Do you expect me to believe Yandel here, considering that he was biased enough to include accounts that blame Aerys II or Elia herself for the murder of Rhaegar’s children?

[Lord Varys]

Yandel is not supposed to have written the stuff about Elia and her children. The page was supposed to be in a different color than the other pages, to subtly indicate tinkering with the parchment. But that could apparently not be done.

If there is a Citadel agenda, I think magic is only a small part of it. The Citadel seems to be trying to build a better world. Look how the maesters try to push home the rule of law (e.g. the maester on Great Wyk pushing for Theon or Asha inheriting the Seastone Chair rather than one of Balon's brothers because this is the law).

The Citadel is also as much an open institution as anything in Westeros. Every man apparently can go there and become a novice, and while the maesters are, as of yet, the tools in the hands of the great lords, they control education, and clearly try propagate education as an important thing for humanity.

There long-term goals seem to be social changes towards a better society. Magic seems to be a problem in this whole thing, as societies based on magic seem to have the potential to put the non-sorcerers firmly under the thumb of the sorcerers, not to mention that magic seems to be elitist by nature, as there are many brands of sorcery that cannot be learned the way a normal science or craft is, but you have to have an innate magical gene or talent.

The idea that magic in itself is considered to be evil by the Citadel makes little sense to me. Else they themselves would not dabble in sorcery, nor would their patrons, the Hightowers.