Sympathy for the Citadel Conspiracy

[OldGimletEye]

1.) tell that to the the Weeping Town.

daeron was a much loved and respected ruler (the high-tower's built a statue for him) and the martell's assassinated him with about as much honer as a Frey. and his death would allow for aegon the unworthy to rule and the blackfyre rebellion. far from a good thing.

2.) dorne was actually the ones who continued aggression. if they had kept to themselves and not bothered anyone then yeah i would root for them, but they didn't

Princes Aliandra Martell encouraged her lords and knights to prove themselves to her, by raiding in the marches.^[1].

the ruler of dorne told her lord's to attack, sack and hinder the marches (which are a part of targaryen domain) for no reason at all.

3.) daeron declared war partly because of ambition, and partly because the dornish had been a pain up the seven kingdom's ass for generation's. killing his villager's and raiding his town's.

If you were a king with the duty to defend your people land's (protector of the realm) are you telling me you would not try and put an end to the independent dorne which will proceed to raid your lands unless stopped?

So, I am so supposed to feel bad because Dorne had Daeron bumped off? Uh, no. He invaded their country. Daeron got the treatment he deserved.

And why are trying to blame the Dornish for the Black Frye rebellion? What a load of crap.

Also, are you really telling me that Daeron invaded Dorne just because he was trying to protect his people? Sorry, but I am just not buying it, And how many years was it between Aliandra's alleged actions and Daeron's invasion?

And other than Aliandra's alleged actions, how was Dorne a pain in the ass to Westeros for generations? What just because they refused to buckle to the Targs? Golly, how dare they do that.

Also, tell me about the part where Daeron sent emissaries to Sun Spear warning the ruler there that invasion would be imminent, unless the alleged raiding stopped.

This just seems like a bunch of Targ apologist crap.

[The silver dragon]

So, I am so supposed to feel bad because the Dorne had Daeron bumped off? Uh, no. He invaded their country.

Also, are you really telling me that Daeron invaded Dorne just because he was trying to protect his people? Sorry, but I am just not buying it, And how many years was it between Aliandra's alleged actions and Daeron's invasion?

And other than Aliandra's alleged actions, how was Dorne a pain in the ass to Westeros for generations? What just because they refused to buckle to the Targs? Golly, how dare they do that.

This just seems like a bunch of Targ apologist crap.

1.) and the they invaded part's of the seven kingdoms. Raid's=invasion's.

2.) not just because. the was the prestige reason to.

3.) not that many. she visited with alyn Velaron, and seeing as her dad fought daemon, and refused to join the dance. it must have been after the dance of the dragon's. and how were they "alleged" action's. Fact she sent her lord's to sack a kingdom adjacent to her.

4.) vulture king, raid's on the marchers.

5.) which of these fact did i make up exactly? the dorneish provoked a war with unreasonable aggression. Daeron responded by conquering their land and making them swear oath's. but besides's that he let them keep their domain over the land.(he could have given dorne to some other lord after the war.) the Dornish responded by breaking said oaths, assassinating people and generally ignoring the rules of warfare.

they are liar's and backstabber's, not to mention that if baelor was any less peaceful their action's could have prolonged a bloody war with the iron throne indefinitely.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Getting rid of all magic is the smartest and most Noble goal the Maester's could ever presue. Magic is unpredictable, dangerous and its easy to be corrupted by it.

I think the happiest ending Asoiaf could have is with all magic leaving the world.

You're BUGGING if you think the happiest ending would be with all magic leaving the world. The magic is what makes things interesting and unpredictable.

Now, after the dragons were dead, certain spells did indeed lose some or all of its potency, which could actually be explanation enough for the whole Citadel policy. The maester are looking for testable and repeatable knowledge, not uncertain stuff. If magic no longer works, it is no good. Yet this seems to be a rather new development, as the Hightowers are, to this day, still very much interested in magic, and Marwyn is still alive, too.

What I see as the bottom line is before Aegon, his sisters, and their dragons came to Westeros, the turmoil and killing of the innocent was much more common than the 300 years that the Targaryen's reined. Even factoring in the BF rebellions and the Dance, those 300 years were peaceful because people knew they could not topple the Targaryens. As the dragons began to fade from existence, this invincibility that the Targs felt began to fade, causing some tremblings in the lords and commons. Had the Targs still had a large amount of Dragons, yes there was a chance for another Dance, but for the majority of three centuries, people who knelt to the dragons were safe and prosperous. We've seen more death in the years since Robert's Rebellion than the 300 before. Dragons and feat of Targ magic maintained peace.

[Monctonvike]

I think TWOIAF has a lot of important info. However it is also unrealiable, in many cases. It might not be as far off as the national enquirer but it is from a certain point of view. So there maybe many correct points about magic and or blood magic but it is not written in stone so to speak.

[Fire Eater]

Exactly, dragons are just too dangerous to exist. The dangers they pose far out way any good they can possibly pose and from Valyria and Asshai we clearly see what abusing magic can end with.

No, dragons don't seem to be causing the kind of destruction unless at the behest of their masters. It isn't dragons that are the problem, people are. People have shown to be more dangerous than dragons in a number of respects, how many dragons do you hear of pushing giants and CotF to the brink of extinction?

After a certain point, the distinction between poison and magic vanishes.

I think the mortal grey plague was created by Garin’s Curse. Mild greyscale might have existed before. Sothoryos and the Basilisk Isles were the laboratories of the Valyrians and probably the Asshai'i before them. Their disgusting experiments might be the reasons of those deadly plagues lurking there. More than 5000 years ago, a plague destroyed the Valyrian colony at Gogossos. 77 years after the Doom, another plague called the Red Death emerged from the slave pens and 9 men out of 10 died screaming in Gogossos.

Except the poison described fits that of curare used to tip arrows by Indians in the Amazon. I would hardly call that magic.

The plague at Gogossos matches the description of ebola, which isn't magical in nature. The grey plague has been around for longer than Garin given it's cousins.

Do you think of some natural causes of the LN or the intervention of nonhuman races? I don’t think the nature favors a LN. The reasons of the LN should not be natural. But if the natural balance was broken by the dragonlords of Asshai in favor of Fire, then we can think of a natural reaction in favor of Ice towards restoring the balance.

We now know that the Valyrian sorcerers were suppressing the lava flow out of the Fourteen Flames. When the mages were killed, years of pressure building up led to the Doom. There is an island called Marahai very close to Asshai. There are two volcanoes there belching lava day and night. I think it is not a big stretch that the Asshai’I dragonlords used similar techniques to meddle with volcanoes. After all, it seems that the Valyrians learned everything from the Asshai’i who survived the LN.

Therefore, I am quite confident that the causes of the LN were all man made. Perhaps the thriving of the Others was the natural reaction considering that they nearly wiped out the dragons of the Asshai’i. tze made a very good observation that Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, who was a famous dragonslayer might actually be an Other.

Except how could people in Asshai taming dragons cause the change in seasons? I find that highly unlikely. I think that is stretching it. The LN has nothing to do with dragons.

I don't think there is any indication of Asshai'i coming to Valyria after the LN.

How could the Others have realistically wiped out dragons in Asshai? First, there is a distance problem, and the Others don't walk on water with Asshai on the opposite end of the world. There are no tales of Others in the Shadow, and no snow or ice. Second, how would they be able to reach the dragons in the sky? That isn't taking into account the dragons' fire-breathing ability.

The quick deterioration of the NW took place during the reign of the Targaryens. On average, the Targaryen reign is not more stable than the Pre-Conquest era. With or without the dragons, we have seen Targaryen civil wars that ravaged the Realm.

I am not sure that Baelor Breakspear would be the Baelor Breakspear we know if he had a dragon. Even in skinchanging, Haggon said that both the animal and the skinchanger will change due to the bond. In case of the dragons, the danger is more serious. Instead of a pet companion, the dragonriders have fearsome beasts which might swell their egos and corrupt them. Dragons are absolute power. I think it will be interesting to see the effects of dragonbond on Dany and the other dragonriders.

In case of Egg, his desperation to bring the dragons back for good reasons nearly destroyed House Targaryen.

If Aerys had a dragon, then another Dance would take place between Rhaegar and him.

Well, I can’t put the blame of the Dance to the Citadel only. I think Viserys I was much guiltier than the Citadel. No maester caused the divide between the blacks and the greens. Especially after the Two Betrayers, it became clear that no person should be allowed to obtain such power. Perhaps that is the reason why the Citadel wants to keep the urban legend that only Targaryens can ride dragons.

Compared the the wars that happened every generation in the Pre-Conquest? The periods of peace in the Targaryen reign far outlasted the the periods of war. The Ironborn raiding is so much a problem anymore, along with the kingsroads connecting the realm.

Except there isn't a single hint of Dany being corrupted by her bond with Drogon. Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Viserys, Rhaenys, Aegon I, Aenys, Prince Daeron, Helaena, and Addam of Hull along with various others were dragonriders, yet where they corrupted? The only bad dragonriders we know of are Maegor, Aemond, the Two Betrayers, Aegon II and possibly Visenya. Power in any form corrupts, and Joffrey's ego swelled when a crown was placed on his head, and Jaime says the same regarding being a warrior prodigy. Dragons aren't absolute power as even Aegon I tread carefully with the Faith, and Maegor had the entire realm against him.

Excpet it was mishandling of wildfire that caused the Tragedy of Summerhall.

Except Rhaegar was looking for political means to remove his father.

Except if the Citadel was working to start the Dance then they are likely to blame given they had been working on the plan for years. Were the Two Betrayers the only dragonriders? You forget Addam of Hull and Netty. Anything is dangerous in the hands of a human being. People can abuse power in any form.

One can objectively analyze the bad consequences of science and try to avoid them the next time. With magic, everything is a gamble. The Citadel expelled Qyburn for studying the bodies of live people and for good reason because he later became a person capable of creating abominations like UnGregor.

Those skilled with magic have learned to use it in more predictable ways as the warlocks, greenseers and wizards have demonstrated. Qyburn's experiments were more scientific in nature.

[Mithras]

Bloodmagic doesn't require the blood of the innocent, the blood of the guilty works just as well. Magic doesn't push people into corruption ...

“Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes. Yet still the mines drove deeper. Slaves perished by the score, but their masters did not care. Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold. During war, the Valyrians took them by the thousands. In times of peace they bred them, though only the worst were sent down to die in the red darkness.”

By any name, it [Gogossos] was an evil place. The dragonlords sent their worst criminals to the Isle of Tears to live out their lives in hard labor. In the dungeons of Gogossos, torturers devised new torments. In the flesh pits, blood sorcery of the darkest sort was practiced, as beasts were mated to slave women to bring forth twisted half-human children.

[As for the cause of the Doom of Valyria] Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames.

It is clear that Valyrian Empire depended on the constant flow of blood. How long one can use the blood of the criminals to sustain this giant machine?

In addition, I don’t think using the criminals as blood sacrifice is a good thing. We have an in-text example of using the blood of a criminal (!) for magic. Dany burned MMD in hatching the dragons. MMD was not a criminal who deserved that end. We also have those people Cersei wanted to get rid of and handed to Qyburn in his studies to create UnGregor.

One can say that the dragons will save the humanity from the Others but it is still not proven that the dragons will be that effective against the Others. In addition, Dany does not look like she will use the dragons against the Others. On the contrary, she will use and spend her dragons in civil wars.

The Valyrians exploited the Fourteen Flames through unnatural blood sacrifices and at one point; the rituals needed to contain the Fourteen Flames were neglected. The result was the Doom.

Comparing Asshai and the Shadow, we can infer that what happened to Asshai in the past was a thousand times greater than the Doom of Valyria.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I agree with the magic that doesn't requires human or blood sacrifice and can result to the death of human beings. I don't like dragons, I don't like Valyrian magic and so on.

[Arakan]

It's not the gun that kills but the one who pulls the trigger. Nevertheless I am for strict gun control.

Magic is simply a potential weapon too dangerous.

Also what Lord Varys said. Very accurate. I consider the maesters as Westeros' version of preachers of enlightenment. They have my full symphaty.

[Oafkeeper]

I think two things about this conspiracy, assuming it exists:

1) They believe the magic in Planetos causes bad things like the screwy seasons (Mentioned as a theory in TWOIAF) so draining the magic from the world will make it better

2) They are the tools of the pro-Other faction conspiracy who have been feeding them misinformation to strike at the dragons.

We need to recall the conspiracy is tiny. Not every maester knows, just a small group at the top. Maybe not even all the Arch-Maesters though they would be the obvious choice. A large group could not keep the secret and if it got around the Targaryens would have destroyed the citadel.

Their power rests in the fact every lord of note has a maester and if the conspiracy controls the deployment of maesters they can send loyalist agents (Or at least unknowing agents who are told and kept from certain knowledge) to key posts.

Still there are two problems beliving this story as I see it:

1) Maester serve with families for life so organising a loyalists into key positions seems highly inflexible

2) I can't see any evidence of this conspiracy in action

I can only assume the reasons so many Targ attempt to rebirth their dragons failed is because Maesters intefered i.e. poisoning the eggs, sabotaging magical rituals. That does make some sense.

[The silver dragon]

So, I am so supposed to feel bad because Dorne had Daeron bumped off? Uh, no. He invaded their country. Daeron got the treatment he deserved.

And why are trying to blame the Dornish for the Black Frye rebellion? What a load of crap.

Also, are you really telling me that Daeron invaded Dorne just because he was trying to protect his people? Sorry, but I am just not buying it, And how many years was it between Aliandra's alleged actions and Daeron's invasion?

And other than Aliandra's alleged actions, how was Dorne a pain in the ass to Westeros for generations? What just because they refused to buckle to the Targs? Golly, how dare they do that.

Also, tell me about the part where Daeron sent emissaries to Sun Spear warning the ruler there that invasion would be imminent, unless the alleged raiding stopped.

This just seems like a bunch of Targ apologist crap.

1.) without daeron dying Aegon the asshole does not become king,

without him dying daemon blackfyre is never born.

*boom* no blackfyre rebellion's for the next century.

2.) it's warfare you don't have to send a warring, after all the marches received no warring when they were attacked by the dornish.

[Mithras]

“My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

“Khaleesi,” he pleaded, “you must not do this thing. Let me kill this maegi.”

“Kill her and you kill your khal,” Dany said.

“This is bloodmagic,” he said. “It is forbidden.”

It seems like the Dothraki allow herblore and midwifery, which are all for healing purposes, but bloodmagic is strictly forbidden for them.

[Mithras]

I can only assume the reasons so many Targ attempt to rebirth their dragons failed is because Maesters intefered i.e. poisoning the eggs, sabotaging magical rituals. That does make some sense.

I think preventing Aerys or Aerion from having dragons was good for the Realm.

[Mithras]

It's not the gun that kills but the one who pulls the trigger. Nevertheless I am for strict gun control.

Magic is simply a potential weapon too dangerous.

Also what Lord Varys said. Very accurate. I consider the maesters as Westeros' version of preachers of enlightenment. They have my full symphaty.

This is also a good point. I have no doubt the Valyrians had very good intentions at the beginning. They wanted power to create the paradise on earth. Hell, they had a region called Lands of the Long Summer. But we saw how much that power corrupted them. And we know that was keeping that machine going. Under the Lands of the Long Summer, humans were continuously sacrificed to keep this dream alive.

Can all the magic users preserve their values and morality? How many of them are strong enough to do that? What is a bad magician capable of?

Bran slipped into Hodor out of desperation several times. But inside the cave, that is no longer the case, yet Bran keeps using him like an animal. If even a sweet and good boy like Bran can be tempted by magic like this, imagine what bad people can do with magic.

[Oafkeeper]

I think it is very likely that the creation of those dragons caused the LN in the first place.

Except The Others advance on The Wall predates Dany reboirthing the Dragons so whatever their magical source is it is seperate from the Dragons.

[Oafkeeper]

I think preventing Aerys or Aerion from having dragons was good for the Realm.

They were deadly enough without them.

Also if dragons are needful to fight Others a few mad Kings and Princes maybe a nesscessary cost to avert extinction.

[Mithras]

Except The Others advance on The Wall predates Dany reboirthing the Dragons so whatever their magical source is it is seperate from the Dragons.

Except I was talking about the First Long Night which looks like the result of the sick Asshai'i experiments. And the foolish Valyrians continued them after the LN.

They were deadly enough without them.

Also if dragons are needful to fight Others a few mad Kings and Princes maybe a nesscessary cost to avert extinction.

Obsidian is proven to be deadly against the Others. Dragons do not like bad weather. Meraxes could not fly during the Battle of the Last Storm. Rhaegal and viserion do not like rain. It will be a mystery how effective they will be during a blizzard. Of course assuming that Dany does not spend those dragons in civil wars. We do not know whether the Others have special weapons to slay dragons or not but the ancient dragonslayer called Serwyn does look like an Other.

[the Scorpion Knight]

It's not the gun that kills but the one who pulls the trigger. Nevertheless I am for strict gun control.

Magic is simply a potential weapon too dangerous.

Also what Lord Varys said. Very accurate. I consider the maesters as Westeros' version of preachers of enlightenment. They have my full symphaty.

I consider the maesters idiots creating an catastophy